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CMIII vs. Aldon for the next 10 years
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Who you got?
Aldon Smith
44%
 44%  [ 46 ]
Clay Matthews
55%
 55%  [ 57 ]
Total Votes : 103

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GaTechRavens


Joined: 24 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextsuperstar wrote:
For the next ten years? That's a long time. I guess Aldon Smith.


For the next five? Clay Matthews.


I wouldn't be overly worried about the age difference. Pass rushers tend to age pretty well, perhaps better than any position outside of QB.
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motorcycle


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aldon Smith is a wonderful player but he is aligned next to Justin Smith on every play. How many QB disruptions would he have if he didn't? Nobody can run the stunt as well as Aldon and Justin, but Clay doesn't have anyone anywhere near Justin Smith's level playing alongside him.
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nextsuperstar


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
nextsuperstar wrote:
For the next ten years? That's a long time. I guess Aldon Smith.


For the next five? Clay Matthews.


I wouldn't be overly worried about the age difference. Pass rushers tend to age pretty well, perhaps better than any position outside of QB.


Speed is their game. Speed often ages poorly. Also factor in the injury problems of older players and age certainly becomes a factor.
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o_0


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ugLymayNe wrote:
o_0 wrote:
ugLymayNe wrote:
The thing about Clay that doesn't show up in stats is what he does vs the run when he doesn't get the stop. We've seen him play like an old school 70's SLB taking out multiple blockers and force the run to either string out towards the sideline or cut it back to the middle of the field where Clay's help is.

Throw in the fact we can trust him in coverage on short routes to run trail man vs Lance Moore and that is why he is better now and will be in the future than Aldon. And that isn't disrespecting Aldon either - he is a very good pass rusher but I foresee him being a two dimensional player only. As a true 3-4 OLB Clay is going to be better.

If I had to grade them out right now it would be:
Aldon Smith Clay Matthews
Passrush: A+ A-
Run D: B+ A
Coverage C- B+

However, I would say Aldon does have more significant potential to get better and more rounded. He's a lot younger, is in his first full year as a starter, and has a freakish size/speed combo (especially his biggest asset, the length of his arms).


Three years is not that big of a difference. And I don't think Smith has the P word on Clay to become more well rounded as a player(rushing the Passer, YES, however I don't see that in the other two phases of the game).

Well I was mostly referring to the fact that he's only played four games as a full time starter, so its only natural that his coverage skills come along the more he has to do it. As opposed to CM3 rhos had 4 years as a full time starter to refine his skills. I don't see CM3 significantly improving on any phase of the game from here on out. Do you?

And 2 of the 3 phases are already there, so they don't need to be developed much more. Saying Aldon needs to work on playing the run shows that people dont watch him much. He could still get better at it, but even if his run defense stayed at this level for the rest of his career, I would be fine with that. Just needs to work on coverage.
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davin fanatic


Joined: 30 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hieroglyphics wrote:
davin fanatic wrote:
Hieroglyphics wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
How do you quantify motor? It's pretty much subjective. You can kind of sort of see it but there is no stat. For the first step. Matthews had a 1.58 10 yard split. Smith had a 1.66. Von Miller who everybody loves his explosiveness clocked in at a 1.57 basically the same as Matthews. DeMarcus Ware had a 1.62. So saying Matthews has an elite burst/first step is not a reach at all.


So exactly how many times during a game does a pass rusher get to sprint for 10 yards without any contact..... Its a useless stat that proves nothing. 10 yards isn't one step (referring to the "fastest first step EVER"), so that doesn't prove anything.

Aldons ceiling is higher in my opinion. So I'll take him.


CM3 now and in the future.

The guy has an absolutely amazing burst. I'd like to direct your attention to this sack which shows CM3 running 10-yards, without any contact, to the QB. He hit that hole in a flash and by the time the guard could react, Brees was already on the ground. Would Aldon have been able to make it through that hole... maybe, maybe not. A tenth of a second could mean the difference between getting a chip on the rusher and letting the QB sidestep the pressure vs letting him pass unabated.

Aldon Smith isn't faster, doesn't have a better broad jump (which IS a measure of explosiveness), and posted worse results in every other event at the combine (vertical, 3-cone, shuttle, bench) and yet you insist that he has a higher ceiling? Child, please.



So once in his entire career, cool.


Oh you really shut me up with that witty, yet piercing remark. Shudder
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neezy007


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell2Bailey wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
Could we go a week without making a thread about Aldon Smith? I'd love to see him on a crappy defense. He's quickly becoming overrated.

I'd take Clay Matthews over him in a 3-4 and 4-3.



Uh huh. Yeah. Every Aldon thread is basically everyone pointing out his flaws. What happens even more often is insecure denver fans discrediting him. Von Miller won the trophy you don't have to crap on Aldon anymore.
Here we go. Rolling Eyes

I could've cared less who won DROY because I knew that Von Miller was a better player regardless. What happens even more is 49er Fans pimping him up like Lawrence Taylor is like Aundray Bruce compared to Smith, then we point out why he's not the greatest thing since sliced bread and we're burned at the stake for it. There is a thread on Smith literally every week.


This is probably the first thread where a 9er fan is "pimping" him. Most of them have been just saying he is an amazing pass rusher who needs work in coverage, and that he makes the 9ers defense elite. What is more common is bronco fans crapping all over him because it is his first year starting. 9er fans have been pretty honest about what he is.

He also might be getting attention because he is playing on national tv a lot on one of the best teams and he has actually caught peoples eyes for playing really well. I'm sure when Von Miller does something notable this year he will get his own thread.
11.5 sacks as a 4-3 SLB, 8 TFL, Made the All-Pro Team, DROY, Pro Bowl, and is consistently game planned against because he doesn't have Justin Smith, Patrick Willis, Navarro Bowman, and all these great players around him. He is THE great player on the defense. Not an pretty good one surrounded by great players.


This year. L2 read.
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Russell2Bailey


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neezy007 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
Could we go a week without making a thread about Aldon Smith? I'd love to see him on a crappy defense. He's quickly becoming overrated.

I'd take Clay Matthews over him in a 3-4 and 4-3.



Uh huh. Yeah. Every Aldon thread is basically everyone pointing out his flaws. What happens even more often is insecure denver fans discrediting him. Von Miller won the trophy you don't have to crap on Aldon anymore.
Here we go. Rolling Eyes

I could've cared less who won DROY because I knew that Von Miller was a better player regardless. What happens even more is 49er Fans pimping him up like Lawrence Taylor is like Aundray Bruce compared to Smith, then we point out why he's not the greatest thing since sliced bread and we're burned at the stake for it. There is a thread on Smith literally every week.


This is probably the first thread where a 9er fan is "pimping" him. Most of them have been just saying he is an amazing pass rusher who needs work in coverage, and that he makes the 9ers defense elite. What is more common is bronco fans crapping all over him because it is his first year starting. 9er fans have been pretty honest about what he is.

He also might be getting attention because he is playing on national tv a lot on one of the best teams and he has actually caught peoples eyes for playing really well. I'm sure when Von Miller does something notable this year he will get his own thread.
11.5 sacks as a 4-3 SLB, 8 TFL, Made the All-Pro Team, DROY, Pro Bowl, and is consistently game planned against because he doesn't have Justin Smith, Patrick Willis, Navarro Bowman, and all these great players around him. He is THE great player on the defense. Not an pretty good one surrounded by great players.


This year. L2 read.
4 TFL, 3 Sacks, 15 tackles in 4 games as the best player on the defense. What has Aldon Smith done? 12 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 1 TFL on arguably the most talented defense in the league.


Seems very notable. Rolling Eyes Which brings me back to my previous point. 49er fans pimping the hell out of him like he's Lawrence Taylor reincarnated when he's playing next to the 2 best ILB's in the league and the best 3-4 DL in the league. When Von Miller has Elvis Dumervil, 2 crappy DT's, a 2nd round rookie DT playing DE, and 2 of the worst starting Linebackers in the league.
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neezy007


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good job subtracting 4 tackles from Aldon this year while failing to mention his FF. 9er fans aren't pimping our guy, people make threads about him. I guess you don't like Revis or Nnamdi because they have threads made about them all the time. You on the other hand are blinded by your hate. Smith is a flashy player, and a game changer. Is the team around him talented? Hell yes. Was that same group anywhere near as good without him? Not at all.
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chucknorris101


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like how you ignore stats to Clay's benefit because they 'dont apply' to Aldon.

(Lets just ignore the 10 sack 2009 too)
2010 - 60 tackles, 13.5 Sacks, 2 FF, 1 INT
2011 - 55 tackles, 6.0 sacks, 3 FF, 3 INT
2012 ....


CM3 and its not close.
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AlexGreen#20


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mean to be a homer here, but the way I see it, the Packers have two guys that are truly elite players. Put them in any scheme with any talent around them and they'll succeed. I'm referring to Clay and Rodgers.

The thing about Clay as a run defender is that teams don't even try anymore. Rarely will we see a run to his side and when we do it typically involves doubling him with a Tackle and Fullback. Even then he sets the edge and forces it back inside. Even on plays run away from him it seems like there's a good chance that he's going to make the tackle. He doesn't filter down the line like you're supposed to do because his DLine isn't good enough to hold up. He reads run away and chases that back down like a jungle cat. Never seen an OLB do it quite like that, Von Miller is close but Clay is just Shocked as a run defender.
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Russell2Bailey


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neezy007 wrote:
Good job subtracting 4 tackles from Aldon this year while failing to mention his FF. 9er fans aren't pimping our guy, people make threads about him. I guess you don't like Revis or Nnamdi because they have threads made about them all the time. You on the other hand are blinded by your hate. Smith is a flashy player, and a game changer. Is the team around him talented? Hell yes. Was that same group anywhere near as good without him? Not at all.


Those are just as annoying. Except those players are actually great and the best at their position. I'm not blinded by hate. That's simply an excuse you use because we disagree. The whole point I was making about the talent was if you put Aldon Smith on let's say.... the Jags or the Jets. Teams that haven't been rushing the passer very well and don't have elite talent all over the field, I have quite some doubt about his production. Usually a truly great and special player can over come it. And last year Smith wasn't even an everydown player.
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Blink


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the guy dismissing the 10 yd split, I don't think you really understand the context.

10yd split, along with things like vert and broad jumps, are a great indicator of explosiveness. The elite edge rushers usually test very well in thos areas.

I'm honestly not sure how you can discredit short yard agility drills when it comes to players who rely on burst.
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49ers4life52


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell2Bailey wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
Good job subtracting 4 tackles from Aldon this year while failing to mention his FF. 9er fans aren't pimping our guy, people make threads about him. I guess you don't like Revis or Nnamdi because they have threads made about them all the time. You on the other hand are blinded by your hate. Smith is a flashy player, and a game changer. Is the team around him talented? Hell yes. Was that same group anywhere near as good without him? Not at all.


Those are just as annoying. Except those players are actually great and the best at their position. I'm not blinded by hate. That's simply an excuse you use because we disagree. The whole point I was making about the talent was if you put Aldon Smith on let's say.... the Jags or the Jets. Teams that haven't been rushing the passer very well and don't have elite talent all over the field, I have quite some doubt about his production. Usually a truly great and special player can over come it. And last year Smith wasn't even an everydown player.

Aldon wasn't an every down player last year because that's how the coaching staff treats the rookies. It had nothing to do about his talent and to say Aldon won't be as dominant in another team is such an ignorant comment. Tell me why Parys Harlson our starting olb last year had 2 sacks last season playing with the same talent around him. I tell you why, its because he's not talented player like Aldon.
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Russell2Bailey


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

49ers4life52 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
Good job subtracting 4 tackles from Aldon this year while failing to mention his FF. 9er fans aren't pimping our guy, people make threads about him. I guess you don't like Revis or Nnamdi because they have threads made about them all the time. You on the other hand are blinded by your hate. Smith is a flashy player, and a game changer. Is the team around him talented? Hell yes. Was that same group anywhere near as good without him? Not at all.


Those are just as annoying. Except those players are actually great and the best at their position. I'm not blinded by hate. That's simply an excuse you use because we disagree. The whole point I was making about the talent was if you put Aldon Smith on let's say.... the Jags or the Jets. Teams that haven't been rushing the passer very well and don't have elite talent all over the field, I have quite some doubt about his production. Usually a truly great and special player can over come it. And last year Smith wasn't even an everydown player.

Aldon wasn't an every down player last year because that's how the coaching staff treats the rookies. It had nothing to do about his talent and to say Aldon won't be as dominant in another team is such an ignorant comment. Tell me why Parys Harlson our starting olb last year had 2 sacks last season playing with the same talent around him. I tell you why, its because he's not talented player like Aldon.


He played on running downs, his strength is stopping the run, Smith was more fresh, it made things easier for his learning process, and it played to his strengths.
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R I 0 T


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell2Bailey wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
Could we go a week without making a thread about Aldon Smith? I'd love to see him on a crappy defense. He's quickly becoming overrated.

I'd take Clay Matthews over him in a 3-4 and 4-3.



Uh huh. Yeah. Every Aldon thread is basically everyone pointing out his flaws. What happens even more often is insecure denver fans discrediting him. Von Miller won the trophy you don't have to crap on Aldon anymore.
Here we go. Rolling Eyes

I could've cared less who won DROY because I knew that Von Miller was a better player regardless. What happens even more is 49er Fans pimping him up like Lawrence Taylor is like Aundray Bruce compared to Smith, then we point out why he's not the greatest thing since sliced bread and we're burned at the stake for it. There is a thread on Smith literally every week.


This is probably the first thread where a 9er fan is "pimping" him. Most of them have been just saying he is an amazing pass rusher who needs work in coverage, and that he makes the 9ers defense elite. What is more common is bronco fans crapping all over him because it is his first year starting. 9er fans have been pretty honest about what he is.

He also might be getting attention because he is playing on national tv a lot on one of the best teams and he has actually caught peoples eyes for playing really well. I'm sure when Von Miller does something notable this year he will get his own thread.
11.5 sacks as a 4-3 SLB, 8 TFL, Made the All-Pro Team, DROY, Pro Bowl, and is consistently game planned against because he doesn't have Justin Smith, Patrick Willis, Navarro Bowman, and all these great players around him. He is THE great player on the defense. Not an pretty good one surrounded by great players.


This year. L2 read.
4 TFL, 3 Sacks, 15 tackles in 4 games as the best player on the defense. What has Aldon Smith done? 12 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 1 TFL on arguably the most talented defense in the league.


Seems very notable. Rolling Eyes Which brings me back to my previous point. 49er fans pimping the hell out of him like he's Lawrence Taylor reincarnated when he's playing next to the 2 best ILB's in the league and the best 3-4 DL in the league. When Von Miller has Elvis Dumervil, 2 crappy DT's, a 2nd round rookie DT playing DE, and 2 of the worst starting Linebackers in the league.
The same way you Broncos fans are "pimping" the hell out of Von Miller on a thread that has nothing to do with him...?

And why exactly are you penalizing Aldon Smith for playing with superior players? Horrible argument.
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