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Time for Lebeau to go.....
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 6428
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMashMouthMike wrote:
The scheme can be and must be tweeked


Not responding directly to you SMM, but to this general sentiment.

What scheme adjustments could we possibly suggest that LeBeau/Tomlin haven't considered and decided against?

I know there isn't an answer to that, but it sounds like some presuppose that LeBeau is just this stubborn automaton that the game has passed by and he refuses to adjust because he is somehow incapable of adjusting. I couldn't disagree more, if that is the supposition

I guarantee that if something is suggested on this message board and we are not seeing it on game day it is because people with a far superior knowledge of the game and the players have considered it and decided against it.

We point out the flaws that the LeBeau scheme has against spread offenses and elite QB's and I can't argue that, but that same scheme over the long haul has parked this team in 3 SB's and won 2 of them....and damn near 3.

I guess I see it as similar to playing poker. Keep betting the odds and eventually you win more often than you lose. The goal isn't really to win every hand, but rather to have the biggest pile when you walk away. LeBeau's scheme will be walking away with an awfully big pile...with plenty of hands won during the elite QB/passing rules era.

None of this is to shift "blame" away from LeBeau as he certainly has his hand in recent difficulties, but I fault him far more for the players/positions selected and how quickly they are integrated than I do the overall scheme. None of Zig, Cam, or Timmons have turned into difference makers (yet?) and none of the mid rounders have truly hit...and neither Zig nor Cam have seen the field fast enough for my liking. Plus, damn it, you don't waste first round picks on 3-4 ends and ILB's...just bad ways to invest high value resources.

I'm just not sure how LeBeau is supposed to hide guys like Foote, Keisel, Lewis, Mundy, Carter, Worilds, Zig etc. These are pro offenses and talented guys we play against and they will expose the lack of that these guys bring to the table....regardless of adjustments.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
SMashMouthMike wrote:
The scheme can be and must be tweeked


Not responding directly to you SMS, but to this general sentiment.

What scheme adjustments could we possibly suggest that LeBeau/Tomlin haven't considered and decided against?

I know there isn't an answer to that, but it sounds like some presuppose that LeBeau is just this stubborn automaton that the game has passed by and he refuses to adjust because he is somehow incapable of adjusting. I couldn't disagree more, if that is the supposition

I guarantee that if something is suggested on this message board and we are not seeing it on game day it is because people with a far superior knowledge of the game and the players have considered it and decided against it.

We point out the flaws that the LeBeau scheme has against spread offenses and elite QB's and I can't argue that, but that same scheme over the long haul has parked this team in 3 SB's and won 2 of them....and damn near 3.

I guess I see it as similar to playing poker. Keep betting the odds and eventually you win more often than you lose. The goal isn't really to win every hand, but rather to have the biggest pile when you walk away. LeBeau's scheme will be walking away with an awfully big pile.

None of this is to shift "blame" away from LeBeau as he certainly has his hand in recent difficulties, but I fault him far more for the players/positions selected and how quickly they are integrated than I do the overall scheme. None of Zig, Cam, or Timmons have turned into difference makers (yet?) and none of the mid rounders have truly hit...and neither Zig nor Cam have seen the field fast enough for my liking. Plus, damn it, you don't waste first round picks on 3-4 ends and ILB's...just bad ways to invest high value resources.

I'm just not sure how LeBeau is supposed to hide guys like Foote, Keisel, Lewis, Mundy, Carter, Worilds, Zig etc. These are pro offenses and talented guys we play against and they will expose the lack of that these guys bring to the table....regardless of adjustments.


You may not be shifting blame treat, but again, this just seems like more granting immunity on LeBeau because of his past accomplishments. His SBs dont dismiss him from critisism or make him perfect, so I think we can stop bringing them up since we all know good and well what his resume looks like. Thats like the people in the 80s who gave Chuck Noll a free pass for a decade of mediocrity because of what he accomplished in the 70s. Its a nice history, but thats just what it is...HISTORY.

Its not about specific scheme adjustments. I dont think anyone here is claiming to have the answers or know better than LeBeau. But when no adjustments are being made its pretty ridiculous, especially when the issue has been a recurring theme during his entire tenure....despite the overall success. Like I said...the 2004-2008, it wasnt quite as bad, but since 2009 its become a glaring issue. I dont claim to know more than LeBeau or anywhere close to what he knows, but one thing I do know that applies to all facets of life....if something isnt working you find something that does. As I stated...dating back to even the mid 2000s...LeBeau's D's have had issues with hurry up and elite QBs....and its the SAME issues. I dont know how to fix it exactly, but I do know Id be trying something different and not letting the same exact thing happen year after year. And as I said...no with teams going no huddle randomly at any point during a game, its really killing us....especially when we have our CBs playing soft coverage to prevent the big play but getting torn up underneath.

And I completely completely completely disagree with your assessments of 34 ends and ILBs. Can you explain that? Patrick Willis and Jon Beason were taken that year too. Would you be saying the ssame thing if we had drafted one of them? If anything, Id say you dont draft PROJECTS in the first round. In terms of Ziggy...its simple....SQUARE PEG ROUND HOLE....and as far as Cam....he is technically a rookie this year iMO because of the lockout the first year. Not only that but LeBeau's defense rarely allows for young players to have immediate impacts....be it the complication of the defense or the fact that they just dont see the field much.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:


Really? So what Arizona did to Tom Brady, 49ers did to Rodgers, Giants did to Brady in the SB....that was...?


Once NE lost Hernadez they became predicable. When ever Brady was under center they ran and whenever he was in shot gun he passed. Given that knowledge, is there any defense in the NFL that could not stop him?


The Packers lost by 8 points and still scored 22 points vs a vastly superior defense and the packer's dog poo of a oline. If you think 22 points is controlling a QB then there is not much to say.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
SMashMouthMike wrote:
The scheme can be and must be tweeked


Not responding directly to you SMS, but to this general sentiment.

What scheme adjustments could we possibly suggest that LeBeau/Tomlin haven't considered and decided against?

I know there isn't an answer to that, but it sounds like some presuppose that LeBeau is just this stubborn automaton that the game has passed by and he refuses to adjust because he is somehow incapable of adjusting. I couldn't disagree more, if that is the supposition

I guarantee that if something is suggested on this message board and we are not seeing it on game day it is because people with a far superior knowledge of the game and the players have considered it and decided against it.

We point out the flaws that the LeBeau scheme has against spread offenses and elite QB's and I can't argue that, but that same scheme over the long haul has parked this team in 3 SB's and won 2 of them....and damn near 3.

I guess I see it as similar to playing poker. Keep betting the odds and eventually you win more often than you lose. The goal isn't really to win every hand, but rather to have the biggest pile when you walk away. LeBeau's scheme will be walking away with an awfully big pile.

None of this is to shift "blame" away from LeBeau as he certainly has his hand in recent difficulties, but I fault him far more for the players/positions selected and how quickly they are integrated than I do the overall scheme. None of Zig, Cam, or Timmons have turned into difference makers (yet?) and none of the mid rounders have truly hit...and neither Zig nor Cam have seen the field fast enough for my liking. Plus, damn it, you don't waste first round picks on 3-4 ends and ILB's...just bad ways to invest high value resources.

I'm just not sure how LeBeau is supposed to hide guys like Foote, Keisel, Lewis, Mundy, Carter, Worilds, Zig etc. These are pro offenses and talented guys we play against and they will expose the lack of that these guys bring to the table....regardless of adjustments.


Quote:
You may not be shifting blame treat, but again, this just seems like more granting immunity on LeBeau because of his past accomplishments. His SBs dont dismiss him from critisism or make him perfect, so I think we can stop bringing them up since we all know good and well what his resume looks like. Thats like the people in the 80s who gave Chuck Noll a free pass for a decade of mediocrity because of what he accomplished in the 70s. Its a nice history, but thats just what it is...HISTORY.


Agreed. It's a what have you done for me lately league. Criticism is totally warranted and valid, but the point that the scheme works more often than not, even in the modern era doesn't seem to be arguable. Has it worked in the last few or every time...not so much...but over the long haul it's proven viable. Especially when the talent is there to execute it. Not a total pass for LeBeau, but the "he needs to do something...only no one knows what" criticism only goes so far for me. I agree the scheme is not perfect, but I don't think you can view it with a "despite it's success" approach as that long term success is the most fundamental reason they continue to implement the scheme. Poker.


Quote:
Its not about specific scheme adjustments. I dont think anyone here is claiming to have the answers or know better than LeBeau. But when no adjustments are being made its pretty ridiculous, especially when the issue has been a recurring theme during his entire tenure....despite the overall success. Like I said...the 2004-2008, it wasnt quite as bad, but since 2009 its become a glaring issue. I dont claim to know more than LeBeau or anywhere close to what he knows, but one thing I do know that applies to all facets of life....if something isnt working you find something that does. As I stated...dating back to even the mid 2000s...LeBeau's D's have had issues with hurry up and elite QBs....and its the SAME issues. I dont know how to fix it exactly, but I do know Id be trying something different and not letting the same exact thing happen year after year. And as I said...no with teams going no huddle randomly at any point during a game, its really killing us....especially when we have our CBs playing soft coverage to prevent the big play but getting torn up underneath.


There's a little "hope and change" to the term adjustments...no one knows what it really means but it sure sounds good....until we get some of it. I'm not sure it's even fair to say no adjustments are being made...just that they haven't worked. I don't think it's reasonable to say he isn't trying/adjusting/changing (unless you think he's a moron) because he obviously is doing those things. He just hasn't found the answer (talent) yet...likely because there isn't really a scheme related answer...just that players need to make plays.

Quote:
And I completely completely completely disagree with your assessments of 34 ends and ILBs. Can you explain that? Patrick Willis and Jon Beason were taken that year too. Would you be saying the ssame thing if we had drafted one of them? If anything, Id say you dont draft PROJECTS in the first round. In terms of Ziggy...its simple....SQUARE PEG ROUND HOLE....and as far as Cam....he is technically a rookie this year iMO because of the lockout the first year. Not only that but LeBeau's defense rarely allows for young players to have immediate impacts....be it the complication of the defense or the fact that they just dont see the field much.


Totally agree on the projects aspect of your take, but the fact is viable, guys you can win with types, can be found later in the draft at these positions. They don't need to be superstars in the 2 gap, just solid. Sure Willis and Beason are nice players...J.J. Watt too. Love to have them and well worth their first round selections...in retrospect. I could just as easily throw out names like Bishop, Lee, Bowman, Washington, and Butler as elite 34 ILBs found later on. Individual names aren't the point tho. Tendencies and probabilities are. Looking forward, I would always bet on pass rushers, skill positions, or tackles to provide more value early in the draft with far less likelihood to be found later on. It's not an all or nothing approach. If there's a great talent at the less valuable positions I'd sure break the rule, but generally 34 ends, ILB's, SS, and G can be found later more frequently. I've cited the objective evidence for this in the past, and the article is getting a little outdated but...

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/nfl-draft/2006/draft-position

Doesn't always work that way in real life year to year, but again playing the odds over the long haul will provide maximum talent levels on the entire roster.

As to Ziggy, I don't think he's a square peg, round hole at all. I think he's a replacement level talent....hate to use the word bust, but he's coming close. Basically he kinda sucks.

One of the very valid criticisms of LeBeau IMO, is the lack of integration of rookies earlier in the process...so again, I agree here.

I guess I come down to viewing LeBeau as playing the odds over the long haul with his scheme, but criticize him for doing the exact opposite with his talent acquisition. That's just where I am at with it all.

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Last edited by treat88 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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treat88


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:


Really? So what Arizona did to Tom Brady, 49ers did to Rodgers, Giants did to Brady in the SB....that was...?


Once NE lost Hernadez they became predicable. When ever Brady was under center they ran and whenever he was in shot gun he passed. Given that knowledge, is there any defense in the NFL that could not stop him?


The Packers lost by 8 points and still scored 22 points vs a vastly superior defense and the packer's dog poo of a oline. If you think 22 points is controlling a QB then there is not much to say.


I'd say stuff happens. Players make plays.

Even the best get shut down intermittently.

I don't think Arizona, the 9er's or the Giants would be successful shutting down those offenses with regularity. Replay those games with the exact same schemes and personnel and I'd bet on very different outcomes more often than not.
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3rivers


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

92 and 43 will be back on the field and the D will be good enough to keep current scheme accepted. Too bad great players make outdated scheme still of use Embarassed
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
jebrick wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:


Really? So what Arizona did to Tom Brady, 49ers did to Rodgers, Giants did to Brady in the SB....that was...?


Once NE lost Hernadez they became predicable. When ever Brady was under center they ran and whenever he was in shot gun he passed. Given that knowledge, is there any defense in the NFL that could not stop him?


The Packers lost by 8 points and still scored 22 points vs a vastly superior defense and the packer's dog poo of a oline. If you think 22 points is controlling a QB then there is not much to say.


I'd say stuff happens. Players make plays.

Even the best get shut down intermittently.

I don't think Arizona, the 9er's or the Giants would be successful shutting down those offenses with regularity. Replay those games with the exact same schemes and personnel and I'd bet on very different outcomes more often than not.


I would beg to differ on these specific examples that I was given. Unless NE changed their offense by realizing their mistake, can you name many defenses in the league that could not do well if they knew, before the snap, if it was going to be a run or pass?

And I pointed out that the 49'ers did not shut down Rodgers. Rodgers played very well vs a great pass rush with a crap oline. Much like the Steelers, GB is going to go as far as their elite QB will carry them because they are not getting much help from their Oline or their defense.

While I like that article by FootballOutsiders on draft distribution, it covers a 1.1 pick with the same weight as a 1.32 pick. A more extensive look at where the superstars are available in those ranges will show that it gets rare for that talent. Ngata is not available in the 20s. JJ Watt and Patrick Willis are not there in the 20s. They were all taken in the teens Those are playmakers.

Steelers are suffering from a lack of playmakers on defense. And soon they will suffer from salary cap hell. The NFL is cyclical.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

self-generated salary cap hell, I might add.
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treat88


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
treat88 wrote:
jebrick wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:


Really? So what Arizona did to Tom Brady, 49ers did to Rodgers, Giants did to Brady in the SB....that was...?


Once NE lost Hernadez they became predicable. When ever Brady was under center they ran and whenever he was in shot gun he passed. Given that knowledge, is there any defense in the NFL that could not stop him?


The Packers lost by 8 points and still scored 22 points vs a vastly superior defense and the packer's dog poo of a oline. If you think 22 points is controlling a QB then there is not much to say.


I'd say stuff happens. Players make plays.

Even the best get shut down intermittently.

I don't think Arizona, the 9er's or the Giants would be successful shutting down those offenses with regularity. Replay those games with the exact same schemes and personnel and I'd bet on very different outcomes more often than not.


I would beg to differ on these specific examples that I was given. Unless NE changed their offense by realizing their mistake, can you name many defenses in the league that could not do well if they knew, before the snap, if it was going to be a run or pass?

And I pointed out that the 49'ers did not shut down Rodgers. Rodgers played very well vs a great pass rush with a crap oline. Much like the Steelers, GB is going to go as far as their elite QB will carry them because they are not getting much help from their Oline or their defense.

While I like that article by FootballOutsiders on draft distribution, it covers a 1.1 pick with the same weight as a 1.32 pick. A more extensive look at where the superstars are available in those ranges will show that it gets rare for that talent. Ngata is not available in the 20s. JJ Watt and Patrick Willis are not there in the 20s. They were all taken in the teens Those are playmakers.

Steelers are suffering from a lack of playmakers on defense. And soon they will suffer from salary cap hell. The NFL is cyclical.


Good article. Totally agree with your last statement about the lack of playmakers on D.

Wasn't arguing your rationale behind those games. In fact, again, I agree with you. Was responding to 43's question.

I was trying to make the point that referencing isolated defensive success against elite offensive units doesn't mean those defenses found some magic scheme to stop them or did anything new and innovative. Whatever the underlying reason, intermittently an elite O gets shut down. It happens. That shouldn't create the illusion that there is some ephemeral "answer" floating around out there that LeBeau hasn't discovered or refuses to look for. It simply means on that one isolated day things broke the defenses way, someone recognized a tendency or the front four created pressure, etc. Players made plays. Replay those games in a vacuum and I would expect different results usually favoring the elite QB.
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And for the record, I agree with kethnaab that drafting of Heyward and Hood as #1 picks then castrating them is wrong. I tend to think that something was planned to change. Both players are not suited to 2-gap. Either that or Tomlin is influencing the defensive picks in a bad way.
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treat88


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
And for the record, I agree with kethnaab that drafting of Heyward and Hood as #1 picks then castrating them is wrong. I tend to think that something was planned to change. Both players are not suited to 2-gap. Either that or Tomlin is influencing the defensive picks in a bad way.


Thirded.

Horrible way to invest resources.
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MOSteelers56


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
jebrick wrote:
And for the record, I agree with kethnaab that drafting of Heyward and Hood as #1 picks then castrating them is wrong. I tend to think that something was planned to change. Both players are not suited to 2-gap. Either that or Tomlin is influencing the defensive picks in a bad way.


Thirded.

Horrible way to invest resources.

Unless we've expected Lebeau to go for a long time and he keeps coming back.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MOSteelers56 wrote:
treat88 wrote:
jebrick wrote:
And for the record, I agree with kethnaab that drafting of Heyward and Hood as #1 picks then castrating them is wrong. I tend to think that something was planned to change. Both players are not suited to 2-gap. Either that or Tomlin is influencing the defensive picks in a bad way.


Thirded.

Horrible way to invest resources.

Unless we've expected Lebeau to go for a long time and he keeps coming back.


Everything points to this. Tomlin could not have fathomed that a 70 year old assistant/coordinator would STILL be here.

I DO think Timmons, Ziggy and especially Worlds were heavy Tooling-influenced and I don't think they are good choices for a LeBeau defenses but might b.s. good in a different system
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snoopydawg44us


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Myself I dont think its the scheme. Players makes the scheme works. If I have to fault Le Beau for anything is for holding on to his Super Bowl Players who were reliable to him for so long. Our Depth is bad once our Key Players are out. What also hurt us was always drafting on the bottom of the rounds. Alot of the good players are picked over. The Steelers of the 70s went thru the same thing. At least the team has gradually try to plug in new draft players at some key position, its still gonna take a few more draft to build back up.
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FakingInjuries


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming from a Patriots fan...

LeBeau is not the problem. Age and injuries are.


It's the same thing that happened to the Patriots from 2008-2011 when we lost Rodney Harrison, Tedy Bruschi, Vrabel, Colvin, Ty Warren, Willie McGinest.




You get your Super Bowl runs with prime/veteran players.... and a few years after that, they become old and retire.

Aaron Smith-retired
Farrior-retired
Hampton-old
Polamalu-injury prone and lost a step



It will take Pittsburgh a few years to re-build. But at least some good groundwork was done before some of those guys left.

Woodley, Timmons, Hood, Heyward are a decent crop of youngsters.
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