Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Time for Lebeau to go.....
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Pittsburgh Steelers
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
niro884


Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Time for Lebeau to go..... Reply with quote

This may catch some off guard and there is no disrespect intended to this legendary man that we have come to love. However, the truth of the matter is that our defense is struggling. I know we have key players out and some are getting older, but our schemes are awful at times and we don't have any pass rush. Our corners are not that good and we have always relied on pass rush and the "don't get beat deep" mentality of LeBeau, but we have become soooooo predictable. The players know it and the opposing teams know it. Carson Palmer carved us up with his 2 min offense. Seriously? Palmer is not that good and was awful for most of the game. It can be argued we lost the Raiders game on a turnover...true, but our defense can't hold water right now and we need a new look and a new direction. I think this has been the case the last few years. We have an over rated defence IMO. I think some of it is on the players, but mostly on LeBeau. Time to give Butler his chance. Worilds is non existent, Carter is not even close to ready and Timmons looks terrible. None of these facts are helping.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49729
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure how it would catch anyone off guard considering many of us having been discussing the exact thing since last year.

Palmer isnt bad....fairly average but not bad. And no, he wasnt awful most of the game....he was actually pretty solid throughout. He is certainly better than Gradkowski who tore us up two years ago.

And while I agree about Worlids and Carter, Timmons hasnt been "awful". First game yes, but the last 2 just average. You want more out of a first rounder but he hasnt been that bad outside of Denver.

Hampton was arguably the worst player on defense last game not named Ryan Mundy. So you have to mention the DLine as well.

Refs didnt help.

Neither did the fumbles.

All in all, yes...most are starting to see that LeBeau's scheme is outdated, and the fact that he hasnt shown the ability to make adjustments over the last 2 or even 3 years has really gotten old.

But the concern is...will Butler make the same mistakes if he is promoted?
_________________
SCPackersFan wrote:
I hold nothing against blue-collar people and I respect/admire them for doing what they do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dcash4


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1134
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not arguing that LeBeaus defense looks "outdated" or a little used, but I do have a question that Im hoping someone with a little more knowlege of the other teams defense can better inform me.

Houston has one of the better defenses in the league. Dont they run the same overall Scheme of the zone blitz from the 3-4? What is it that makes them so successful and ours now so bland?

I know their front 7 is a huge reason for that. They are relentless going after the QB. Guys like JJ Watt make it easy to be a coordinator. Sometimes i get the feeling once our guys get engaged with a blocker they dont really keep fighting through-- just kind of get content with what they did.

Overall i guess im asking, is it the scheme thats really outdated, or is it the players themsevles being bad fits, or the coordinators unwillingness to attack.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49729
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:
Not arguing that LeBeaus defense looks "outdated" or a little used, but I do have a question that Im hoping someone with a little more knowlege of the other teams defense can better inform me.

Houston has one of the better defenses in the league. Dont they run the same overall Scheme of the zone blitz from the 3-4? What is it that makes them so successful and ours now so bland?

I know their front 7 is a huge reason for that. They are relentless going after the QB. Guys like JJ Watt make it easy to be a coordinator. Sometimes i get the feeling once our guys get engaged with a blocker they dont really keep fighting through-- just kind of get content with what they did.

Overall i guess im asking, is it the scheme thats really outdated, or is it the players themsevles being bad fits, or the coordinators unwillingness to attack.


Looking at talent, I dont see a huge difference overall, but there is one key piece that stands out...

JJ Watt, as expected is a manchild. Unstoppable.

Steelers and Texans both run the 3-4, but there are major differences. I could go intp detail, but a) Im tired, and b) someone else on here can probably do it better...perhaps keth or JPN.

Without getting too technical...We should be running a 34 like Phillips, because it allows the DLineman to attack a good bit, where as our lineman are simply expected to eat blocks and allow the LBs to make plays. But when you consdier our young DLineman are built more for a system like Wade Phillips and are nothing like Aaron Smith, and that our currently LBs arent consistently making the plays they should, thats why we are seeing the struggle.

We dont have a talent like Watt on our front 3, but I do think Ziggy would have more success if he were to play under Wade Phillips. I think Phillips at this point would use him how a player like Ziggy should be used, as opposed to trying to make Ziggy one dimensional and not highlighting his striengths, which is basically what LeBeau's defense does.

Honestly, while the scheme is a bit outdated, the thing that bugs me the most is the fact that LeBeau hasnt adjusted to alot of the things that have killed us over the last 2 or 3 years.

LeBeau is set in his ways, so certain things just arent going to change regardless of how often they continue to hurt us. Our talent and injuries are an issue at the moment, but LeBeau's inability to modernize the defense to keep up with the increased passing and hurry up/no huddle is what is really hurting us. Then again, if you even go back further, you can see that LeBeau has ALWAYS struggled vs the no huddle. Sadly, teams are really starting to use that regularly, and not just at the end of halves when a quick score is needed.

Hopefully he can make some changes, but even if he does, in the long run, a change is needed, and as I said...that change should happen sooner than later.

I love D1ck (errrrr...ummmm).....but he is 75 and its time to move on.
_________________
SCPackersFan wrote:
I hold nothing against blue-collar people and I respect/admire them for doing what they do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 3672
Location: In your head
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the 34 systems use 1 gap and they have better athletes. They have speed inside and out and they use their OLBs as primary rusher. s. Our OLBs are primary pass defenders.
_________________




"Sheep follow the flock for direction and security but scatter at the sight of the lone wolf". Rocky
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2349
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maybe a different DC would have the D be more effective when Troy isn't on the field? Seems like without Troy, Lebeau's system is weak.

I am all for a new DC (Horton is doing well though) and try a new system since this one relies on Troy too much. I think 2 gap is history, simple as that.

Having said this, I would wait another year before drafting a safety early, and still focus on OL for depth and get rid of essux, I mean beechum. No more scrubs on the OL.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 9957
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:
Houston has one of the better defenses in the league. Dont they run the same overall Scheme of the zone blitz from the 3-4? What is it that makes them so successful and ours now so bland?


they run a Philips' 3-4, which is a 1-gap attacking system.

JJ Watt is a pure beast. We don't have that kind of talent on our team. however, the majority of our talent, aside from Casey Hampton, belongs in an attacking 3-4 or a 4-3 rather than a LeBeau or Fairbanks 3-4

In leBeau and especially Fairbanks' 3-4 systems, the DEs (in LeBeau's defense, the RDE has a bit more freedom) RARELY "attack" off the snap. John Mitchell (Steelers' DL coach forever under LeBeau) teaches his guys to stand up off the snap, extend their arms, and try to handfight and maintain gap control. That works like a charm for a 6'5-1/2 guy with 36" arms like Aaron Smith. Doesn't work so well for a 6'2-5/8 guy with 33" arms like Ziggy.

Ziggy and Heyward's best option off the line is to explode off the snap. Blow through a gap or up a guy's chest and drive him. Instead, they either stand up and extend, or "juke" the guy, ultimately playing a pure contain system. COMPLETE waste of talent, and they really aren't well suited for it.

Dcash4 wrote:
Overall i guess im asking, is it the scheme thats really outdated, or is it the players themsevles being bad fits, or the coordinators unwillingness to attack.


Yes, yes, and yes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dcash4


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1134
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Keth. The more i looked into it, the more I understood the difference. I know the front 7 has a lot to do with that.

Really hope we go to more of the Philips styled attack. Really does seem like our guys up front are better fits for it.

The more i find id really like the System to stay, but the scheme to change for more attacking.

I do understand that its more likely to happen with Lebeau gone than here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 2216
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also other thing to keep in mind; from early on in 2000, we were drafting players that already were playing in their exact position and we wanted exactly from what they were best at.

Aaron Smith always were a DE (used at DT sometime during his time at Colorado) and look at what happened?

Brett Keisel were always a DE, his pass-rushing is still among best on our team.

Casey Hampton were always a run-stuffing DT/NT.

There are other few examples, but what happened was... NCAA changed way they play the game, NFL later on followed. Lebeau and Steelers defense didn't. Can anyone tell me when's last time a RB won a Heisman? I still don't want to say Ingram, because he racked up his TDs mostly from goal-ine and that year there weren't that many of talents sufficient enough to win a Heisman and arguably Toby Gerhart should have won it. Point being, last time a true bruising/playmaker at RB that won Heisman were Ron Dayne. After that the college changed.

We have been drafting players with potentials and we'd hope they would transform into the players we want them to be. This is what's killing our defense, it's not necessarily on Lebeau alone; Butler (LB coach) and Mitchell (D-Line coach) as well.

It's their job to make sure players are able to fill the void and they haven't, so far our biggest success have been the secondary.

Which is why I hope Carnell Lake would be a strong candidate to become our next defensive coordinator. Ryan Clark sudden improved and we specifically used Keenan Lewis up to his strength (until this year, maybe this' got to do with their lack of confidence with Cortez Allen?)

We got to wait and see.. Until then the burden is on Big Ben and his offense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2349
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
Also other thing to keep in mind; from early on in 2000, we were drafting players that already were playing in their exact position and we wanted exactly from what they were best at.

Aaron Smith always were a DE (used at DT sometime during his time at Colorado) and look at what happened?

Brett Keisel were always a DE, his pass-rushing is still among best on our team.

Casey Hampton were always a run-stuffing DT/NT.

There are other few examples, but what happened was... NCAA changed way they play the game, NFL later on followed. Lebeau and Steelers defense didn't. Can anyone tell me when's last time a RB won a Heisman? I still don't want to say Ingram, because he racked up his TDs mostly from goal-ine and that year there weren't that many of talents sufficient enough to win a Heisman and arguably Toby Gerhart should have won it. Point being, last time a true bruising/playmaker at RB that won Heisman were Ron Dayne. After that the college changed.

We have been drafting players with potentials and we'd hope they would transform into the players we want them to be. This is what's killing our defense, it's not necessarily on Lebeau alone; Butler (LB coach) and Mitchell (D-Line coach) as well.

It's their job to make sure players are able to fill the void and they haven't, so far our biggest success have been the secondary.

Which is why I hope Carnell Lake would be a strong candidate to become our next defensive coordinator. Ryan Clark sudden improved and we specifically used Keenan Lewis up to his strength (until this year, maybe this' got to do with their lack of confidence with Cortez Allen?)

We got to wait and see.. Until then the burden is on Big Ben and his offense.


I forgot about the Lake effect, imagine how it would be without him? I think he won the pats game last year because we saw what happened the year before Embarassed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Curtain


Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 482
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, as much as we all love and respect - LeBeau, when your time comes, your time comes. And as said, teams like Houston can work that scheme because they have a terrifying front seven, kind of like the Steelers used to for the last 7 or 8 years. A number of those key elements are old/broken down now. It might not be as simple as a new scheme, but I think the point is that with the immediate talent we have, they're a better fit in a new scheme.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 2216
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I love what Carnell Lake have done here; I wasn't too sure if he was the problem though. Ray Horton went to Cardinals to become their defensive coordinator and you saw how productive and successful their defense has been in first 3 games already.

This is the Cardinals' defense we are talking about, maybe only 1 elite player with few good players... Not that talented like ours and they surprised Patriots and beaten up Eagles (this is too much alike back in 2004) when we beat Patriots then give some butt-whupping against Eagles the next week.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AntiSuperstar


Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 4444
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
While I love what Carnell Lake have done here; I wasn't too sure if he was the problem though. Ray Horton went to Cardinals to become their defensive coordinator and you saw how productive and successful their defense has been in first 3 games already.

This is the Cardinals' defense we are talking about, maybe only 1 elite player with few good players... Not that talented like ours and they surprised Patriots and beaten up Eagles (this is too much alike back in 2004) when we beat Patriots then give some butt-whupping against Eagles the next week.


The Cardinals defense has plenty of talent. Their Defensive Ends are the most talented in the league by a wide margin and their secondary is more talented than the Steelers by leaps and bounds.

Also, there are a lot of Texans comparisons, and as someone who watches every Texans game, if you watch that defense at all you would know they are a team who relies very heavily on being able to play man defense against anyone they face. On third down they have six defensive backs on the field and every single one of them can man up against a player the offense puts out there. They have Jonathan Joseph who is probably the second best man coverage player in the league.

The Steelers, in contrast, have not even close to the talent to do something like that and if you're going to compare the two defense, that's actually the biggest difference. Not J.J. Watt or the front seven(although it's still true to say that the Texans front 7 is better and more talented, however it's false to suggest the Texans blitzing concepts or their scheme in terms of pressure is as good as Pittsburgh's). Coverage is more of a key to the Texans defense than most, that's why they can be very aggressive(and by the way even the Texans struggled against the hurry up against Denver). I guarantee you if the Texans had the Steelers secondary no one would be singing the praise of Wade Philips or the front seven.

There are some philosophy issues here though, namely in the qualities the Steelers value at the Safety position(which couldn't be any more different from the Texans), but you know, the Cardinals have the same type of players at the position as Pittsburgh and they're still an excellent defense. In reality, and everyone knows this, the Steelers more than anything need to commit to adding greater talent in the secondary, particularly the cornerback position, which they have refused to do for years now. This is their biggest problem and the limitations that approach creates are only exaggerated this year because the Steelers front 7 play and pass rush isn't what it was in the past(because Hampton has declined, the team only has one very talented ILB, and especially because Harrison hasn't played but he also looked in decline last year) plus the fact that they haven't had a game yet where both starting Safeties played(and Mundy is terrible).
_________________
Stop slobbering over Brian Dawkins
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gunny Highway


Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 1353
Location: BLEEDING BLACK AND GOLD
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
Dcash4 wrote:
Houston has one of the better defenses in the league. Dont they run the same overall Scheme of the zone blitz from the 3-4? What is it that makes them so successful and ours now so bland?


they run a Philips' 3-4, which is a 1-gap attacking system.

JJ Watt is a pure beast. We don't have that kind of talent on our team. however, the majority of our talent, aside from Casey Hampton, belongs in an attacking 3-4 or a 4-3 rather than a LeBeau or Fairbanks 3-4

In leBeau and especially Fairbanks' 3-4 systems, the DEs (in LeBeau's defense, the RDE has a bit more freedom) RARELY "attack" off the snap. John Mitchell (Steelers' DL coach forever under LeBeau) teaches his guys to stand up off the snap, extend their arms, and try to handfight and maintain gap control. That works like a charm for a 6'5-1/2 guy with 36" arms like Aaron Smith. Doesn't work so well for a 6'2-5/8 guy with 33" arms like Ziggy.

Ziggy and Heyward's best option off the line is to explode off the snap. Blow through a gap or up a guy's chest and drive him. Instead, they either stand up and extend, or "juke" the guy, ultimately playing a pure contain system. COMPLETE waste of talent, and they really aren't well suited for it.

Dcash4 wrote:
Overall i guess im asking, is it the scheme thats really outdated, or is it the players themsevles being bad fits, or the coordinators unwillingness to attack.


Yes, yes, and yes.


This post needs blown up and put on billboards all over in Pitt Metro Area
_________________
" Roger Goodell - Ruining the game I love - 1 fine at a time "
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
niro884


Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Butler will have some LeBeau mentality with a twist of his own. Let's just hope it's a good twist with some fresh aggressive ideas. (Personnel will have alot to do with it). The only reason Butler is still here is because he was promised that spot. If not, he was gone to the Colts. We need to draft a true OLB. Harrison's days are numbered as much as I hate to admit it. I'm sure most feel the same. Sorry 4threeMafia, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Timmons is not even close to where he should be. I think 2010 was a fluke. He should be thumping guys at his spot, but he is whiffing alot more than thumping. His last two games weren't much of an improvement. He needs to step up for what he's being paid. P.S I still think we made Palmer look better than he really is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Pittsburgh Steelers All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group