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Dreadymatt


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk Morrison got released....thoughts?
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:

If possible, I wouldn't mind finding a decent C, pushing Wiz back to G, getting Carlisle out of here and picking up a RT. IMO, that would do wonders for our line even if the RT and C are just "decent". It would be enough to upgrade.


I'd keep Wiz at C. I see no reason to switch him back to G.
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Dreadymatt


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:

If possible, I wouldn't mind finding a decent C, pushing Wiz back to G, getting Carlisle out of here and picking up a RT. IMO, that would do wonders for our line even if the RT and C are just "decent". It would be enough to upgrade.


I'd keep Wiz at C. I see no reason to switch him back to G.


then we need a cheap FA guard or Bergstrom to step up
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dreadymatt wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:

If possible, I wouldn't mind finding a decent C, pushing Wiz back to G, getting Carlisle out of here and picking up a RT. IMO, that would do wonders for our line even if the RT and C are just "decent". It would be enough to upgrade.


I'd keep Wiz at C. I see no reason to switch him back to G.


then we need a cheap FA guard or Bergstrom to step up


I don't know about cheap but we need a G.

LT - Veldheer
LG - Levitre
OC - Wiz
RG - Briesel/Bergstrom
RT - ?/Bergstrom
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22197
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:

If possible, I wouldn't mind finding a decent C, pushing Wiz back to G, getting Carlisle out of here and picking up a RT. IMO, that would do wonders for our line even if the RT and C are just "decent". It would be enough to upgrade.


I'd keep Wiz at C. I see no reason to switch him back to G.


then we need a cheap FA guard or Bergstrom to step up


I don't know about cheap but we need a G.

LT - Veldheer
LG - Levitre
OC - Wiz
RG - Briesel/Bergstrom
RT - ?/Bergstrom


That left side would be fierce. Veldheer struggles with speed rushers, but he's a sound LT for the most part.

How would you feel adding one of the premier LT's in the draft? Starting him at RT perhaps then moving to LT if Veldheer isn't cutting it? Bergstrom can swing T/G if he can't beat our Briesel.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:

How would you feel adding one of the premier LT's in the draft? Starting him at RT perhaps then moving to LT if Veldheer isn't cutting it? Bergstrom can swing T/G if he can't beat our Briesel.


I've thought about that. I'm not against Joeckel if he's there. That'd mean putting most of resources to use on the OL which i'm not against either. We're not fixing everything this offseason so we might as well turn one unit into a strength. Starting with the OL isn't a bad option when we'll have to plug in a young QB in the near future.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to go against the move Veldher line of thinking. It was crystal clear from last night's game, Veldheer and Wisniewski can be sound, while Carlisle, Brisiel and Barnes just perform a littany of mistakes.

Now I am not saying Veldheer is great, I just think if you address and replace 3 line positions you sure don't need to add a 4th change in there. Moving him will just make a transition to a line with 3 new players even harder. At the very least Carlisle and Barnes must be replaced, as Brisiel might survive because of his contract. So once again, just like this past year, is it reasonable to expect the line to be successful if you make changes to 4 of the 5 players on it in one year? We did it this year with 3 changes, 4 if you count the extended time Willie Smith saw, and look at the result. A unit that looked really, really bad for a long portion of the season. Not only that but a unit that was better than this before the changes were made.

Too many changes on the line make it worse than it actually is. Leave Veldheer where he is and put someone at the other tackle and guard positions. Same goes for Wisnieski, he's just now getting comfortable. Leave him where he is. It makes sense, they're our best linemen, leave them where they are fix the problems. Don't fix your strengths even if they're not perfect, fix your weaknesses then worry about improving strengths.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 32438
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
I'm starting to go against the move Veldher line of thinking. It was crystal clear from last night's game, Veldheer and Wisniewski can be sound, while Carlisle, Brisiel and Barnes just perform a littany of mistakes.

Now I am not saying Veldheer is great, I just think if you address and replace 3 line positions you sure don't need to add a 4th change in there. Moving him will just make a transition to a line with 3 new players even harder. At the very least Carlisle and Barnes must be replaced, as Brisiel might survive because of his contract. So once again, just like this past year, is it reasonable to expect the line to be successful if you make changes to 4 of the 5 players on it in one year? We did it this year with 3 changes, 4 if you count the extended time Willie Smith saw, and look at the result. A unit that looked really, really bad for a long portion of the season. Not only that but a unit that was better than this before the changes were made.

Too many changes on the line make it worse than it actually is. Leave Veldheer where he is and put someone at the other tackle and guard positions. Same goes for Wisnieski, he's just now getting comfortable. Leave him where he is. It makes sense, they're our best linemen, leave them where they are fix the problems. Don't fix your strengths even if they're not perfect, fix your weaknesses then worry about improving strengths.


Only way I'd consider Joeckel is if Moore and Star are gone. There's such a steep drop off after those 2. And Veldheer, while solid, just hasn't been able to contain the better pass rushers.
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RaidersAreOne


Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 8886
Location: Canada, but don't worry... i'm not one of those damn dirty french.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I'm starting to go against the move Veldher line of thinking. It was crystal clear from last night's game, Veldheer and Wisniewski can be sound, while Carlisle, Brisiel and Barnes just perform a littany of mistakes.

Now I am not saying Veldheer is great, I just think if you address and replace 3 line positions you sure don't need to add a 4th change in there. Moving him will just make a transition to a line with 3 new players even harder. At the very least Carlisle and Barnes must be replaced, as Brisiel might survive because of his contract. So once again, just like this past year, is it reasonable to expect the line to be successful if you make changes to 4 of the 5 players on it in one year? We did it this year with 3 changes, 4 if you count the extended time Willie Smith saw, and look at the result. A unit that looked really, really bad for a long portion of the season. Not only that but a unit that was better than this before the changes were made.

Too many changes on the line make it worse than it actually is. Leave Veldheer where he is and put someone at the other tackle and guard positions. Same goes for Wisnieski, he's just now getting comfortable. Leave him where he is. It makes sense, they're our best linemen, leave them where they are fix the problems. Don't fix your strengths even if they're not perfect, fix your weaknesses then worry about improving strengths.


Only way I'd consider Joeckel is if Moore and Star are gone. There's such a steep drop off after those 2. And Veldheer, while solid, just hasn't been able to contain the better pass rushers.


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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5754
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I'm starting to go against the move Veldher line of thinking. It was crystal clear from last night's game, Veldheer and Wisniewski can be sound, while Carlisle, Brisiel and Barnes just perform a littany of mistakes.

Now I am not saying Veldheer is great, I just think if you address and replace 3 line positions you sure don't need to add a 4th change in there. Moving him will just make a transition to a line with 3 new players even harder. At the very least Carlisle and Barnes must be replaced, as Brisiel might survive because of his contract. So once again, just like this past year, is it reasonable to expect the line to be successful if you make changes to 4 of the 5 players on it in one year? We did it this year with 3 changes, 4 if you count the extended time Willie Smith saw, and look at the result. A unit that looked really, really bad for a long portion of the season. Not only that but a unit that was better than this before the changes were made.

Too many changes on the line make it worse than it actually is. Leave Veldheer where he is and put someone at the other tackle and guard positions. Same goes for Wisnieski, he's just now getting comfortable. Leave him where he is. It makes sense, they're our best linemen, leave them where they are fix the problems. Don't fix your strengths even if they're not perfect, fix your weaknesses then worry about improving strengths.


Only way I'd consider Joeckel is if Moore and Star are gone. There's such a steep drop off after those 2. And Veldheer, while solid, just hasn't been able to contain the better pass rushers.


I know Veldheer is far less than perfect. But like I said do we really want to have a guy move positions while 3 other guys on the line have been replaced in the same offseason? It's the same recipe for disaster we fell prey to this year and look at the results. 13 games in and the line has just begun to solidify, slightly.. As far as I am concerned if you change 4 out of 5 line positions, no matter how good the replacements are, be prepared to burn the entire year doing it. The 5 lineman are a unit, incapable of singular success because the weak links are the crucial part. Lack of continuity is a weak link for all of them.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I'm starting to go against the move Veldher line of thinking. It was crystal clear from last night's game, Veldheer and Wisniewski can be sound, while Carlisle, Brisiel and Barnes just perform a littany of mistakes.

Now I am not saying Veldheer is great, I just think if you address and replace 3 line positions you sure don't need to add a 4th change in there. Moving him will just make a transition to a line with 3 new players even harder. At the very least Carlisle and Barnes must be replaced, as Brisiel might survive because of his contract. So once again, just like this past year, is it reasonable to expect the line to be successful if you make changes to 4 of the 5 players on it in one year? We did it this year with 3 changes, 4 if you count the extended time Willie Smith saw, and look at the result. A unit that looked really, really bad for a long portion of the season. Not only that but a unit that was better than this before the changes were made.

Too many changes on the line make it worse than it actually is. Leave Veldheer where he is and put someone at the other tackle and guard positions. Same goes for Wisnieski, he's just now getting comfortable. Leave him where he is. It makes sense, they're our best linemen, leave them where they are fix the problems. Don't fix your strengths even if they're not perfect, fix your weaknesses then worry about improving strengths.


Only way I'd consider Joeckel is if Moore and Star are gone. There's such a steep drop off after those 2. And Veldheer, while solid, just hasn't been able to contain the better pass rushers.


I know Veldheer is far less than perfect. But like I said do we really want to have a guy move positions while 3 other guys on the line have been replaced in the same offseason? It's the same recipe for disaster we fell prey to this year and look at the results. 13 games in and the line has just begun to solidify, slightly.. As far as I am concerned if you change 4 out of 5 line positions, no matter how good the replacements are, be prepared to burn the entire year doing it. The 5 lineman are a unit, incapable of singular success because the weak links are the crucial part. Lack of continuity is a weak link for all of them.


I realize that. But I'm thinking long term. I'll be patient if the thing that requires patience is bookend tackles for years. Not only that but what else would we do if those 2 are gone? Only thing is to trade down., because no one else is worth picking around that range. But what if we can't find a deal we like? We need to crush this pick. If the best LT of the class is a consolation prize for missing out on Star and Moore and being unable to find a satisfying trade down then I'm not going to stick my nose up at it.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I agree. But for the first year or two I'd rather see the new guy play the right side. Just to minimize the mess the line will be if the guards both go. By then Veldheer will likely leave anyway if we don't resign him, as his rookie deal will be up. It could play against us though, he'll never sign a new deal at RT money by then.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
No, I agree. But for the first year or two I'd rather see the new guy play the right side. Just to minimize the mess the line will be if the guards both go. By then Veldheer will likely leave anyway if we don't resign him, as his rookie deal will be up. It could play against us though, he'll never sign a new deal at RT money by then.


He's coming off his worst year as a pro. Now is the time to move him if we're ever going to do it imo.

And how often does that work out? Honest question. Only instance I can think of is Michael Oher.
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Silver&Black88 wrote:
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reddevil


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 548
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I'm starting to go against the move Veldher line of thinking. It was crystal clear from last night's game, Veldheer and Wisniewski can be sound, while Carlisle, Brisiel and Barnes just perform a littany of mistakes.

Now I am not saying Veldheer is great, I just think if you address and replace 3 line positions you sure don't need to add a 4th change in there. Moving him will just make a transition to a line with 3 new players even harder. At the very least Carlisle and Barnes must be replaced, as Brisiel might survive because of his contract. So once again, just like this past year, is it reasonable to expect the line to be successful if you make changes to 4 of the 5 players on it in one year? We did it this year with 3 changes, 4 if you count the extended time Willie Smith saw, and look at the result. A unit that looked really, really bad for a long portion of the season. Not only that but a unit that was better than this before the changes were made.

Too many changes on the line make it worse than it actually is. Leave Veldheer where he is and put someone at the other tackle and guard positions. Same goes for Wisnieski, he's just now getting comfortable. Leave him where he is. It makes sense, they're our best linemen, leave them where they are fix the problems. Don't fix your strengths even if they're not perfect, fix your weaknesses then worry about improving strengths.


Only way I'd consider Joeckel is if Moore and Star are gone. There's such a steep drop off after those 2. And Veldheer, while solid, just hasn't been able to contain the better pass rushers.


I know Veldheer is far less than perfect. But like I said do we really want to have a guy move positions while 3 other guys on the line have been replaced in the same offseason? It's the same recipe for disaster we fell prey to this year and look at the results. 13 games in and the line has just begun to solidify, slightly.. As far as I am concerned if you change 4 out of 5 line positions, no matter how good the replacements are, be prepared to burn the entire year doing it. The 5 lineman are a unit, incapable of singular success because the weak links are the crucial part. Lack of continuity is a weak link for all of them.


I realize that. But I'm thinking long term. I'll be patient if the thing that requires patience is bookend tackles for years. Not only that but what else would we do if those 2 are gone? Only thing is to trade down., because no one else is worth picking around that range. But what if we can't find a deal we like? We need to crush this pick. If the best LT of the class is a consolation prize for missing out on Star and Moore and being unable to find a satisfying trade down then I'm not going to stick my nose up at it.


+1. This has to be the thinking. If you are sat at the top of the draft and your 2 top defensive players are gone, no matter how desperate things are on D, you don't reach for someone you are unsure of. You pick up the best player who can MAKE A DIFFERENCE. God knows we needs difference makers. If it means Veldheer having to adapt to accommodate a proper bonifide football player.....so be it.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 2875
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I'm starting to go against the move Veldher line of thinking. It was crystal clear from last night's game, Veldheer and Wisniewski can be sound, while Carlisle, Brisiel and Barnes just perform a littany of mistakes.

Now I am not saying Veldheer is great, I just think if you address and replace 3 line positions you sure don't need to add a 4th change in there. Moving him will just make a transition to a line with 3 new players even harder. At the very least Carlisle and Barnes must be replaced, as Brisiel might survive because of his contract. So once again, just like this past year, is it reasonable to expect the line to be successful if you make changes to 4 of the 5 players on it in one year? We did it this year with 3 changes, 4 if you count the extended time Willie Smith saw, and look at the result. A unit that looked really, really bad for a long portion of the season. Not only that but a unit that was better than this before the changes were made.

Too many changes on the line make it worse than it actually is. Leave Veldheer where he is and put someone at the other tackle and guard positions. Same goes for Wisnieski, he's just now getting comfortable. Leave him where he is. It makes sense, they're our best linemen, leave them where they are fix the problems. Don't fix your strengths even if they're not perfect, fix your weaknesses then worry about improving strengths.


Only way I'd consider Joeckel is if Moore and Star are gone. There's such a steep drop off after those 2. And Veldheer, while solid, just hasn't been able to contain the better pass rushers.


I know Veldheer is far less than perfect. But like I said do we really want to have a guy move positions while 3 other guys on the line have been replaced in the same offseason? It's the same recipe for disaster we fell prey to this year and look at the results. 13 games in and the line has just begun to solidify, slightly.. As far as I am concerned if you change 4 out of 5 line positions, no matter how good the replacements are, be prepared to burn the entire year doing it. The 5 lineman are a unit, incapable of singular success because the weak links are the crucial part. Lack of continuity is a weak link for all of them.


I realize that. But I'm thinking long term. I'll be patient if the thing that requires patience is bookend tackles for years. Not only that but what else would we do if those 2 are gone? Only thing is to trade down., because no one else is worth picking around that range. But what if we can't find a deal we like? We need to crush this pick. If the best LT of the class is a consolation prize for missing out on Star and Moore and being unable to find a satisfying trade down then I'm not going to stick my nose up at it.


Long term? If the oline fails to improve next year it might be the last we see of Allen. And the a new coach will come in and change everything again. No we need short term success and then build the depth up.
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