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Broncos LB Mays suspended for helmet-to-helmet hit
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Joe_is_the_best


Joined: 31 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
JDLefebvre wrote:
^^^ He doesn't even attempt to wrap his arms to make a tackle.
Problem is the guy doesn't know how to tackle correctly. It was a pretty dumb play and he deserved a suspension, but there wasn't malicious intent.

If he wanted to end Schaub's career he could have shoved him high or clothes lined him, which he did neither. Not attempting a wrap up tackle =/= intent to injure.


I'm sorry, but that's a joke. If he wanted to end Shaub's career, he would have shoved him high? Thank God he only ran helmet-first into Shaub's chin....
I guess landing on your back is more dangerous than landing on your head...
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
JDLefebvre wrote:
^^^ He doesn't even attempt to wrap his arms to make a tackle.
Problem is the guy doesn't know how to tackle correctly. It was a pretty dumb play and he deserved a suspension, but there wasn't malicious intent.

If he wanted to end Schaub's career he could have shoved him high or clothes lined him, which he did neither. Not attempting a wrap up tackle =/= intent to injure.


I'm sorry, but that's a joke. If he wanted to end Shaub's career, he would have shoved him high? Thank God he only ran helmet-first into Shaub's chin....
I guess landing on your back is more dangerous than landing on your head...


And getting shoved high is more dangerous than getting speared in the head by the crown of a LBers helmet?

Dirty hit, no arguing it. He was clearly trying to take Schaub out, rather than make a tackle.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ+jay+al=SB wrote:
My initial judgement of the play was definitely wrong. He was clearly going in to light him up and it was vicious. Deserves what he got. BUT I don't think anyone really has the right to come at Mays as if he was purposely trying to injure Schaub. How are you gonna say what his intent is? Mays head is down before the ball is released and if he gets there less than a second sooner that is a fumble and a game changer. But yeah I mean he was going for a big, highlight hit. So I guess if you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with Mays.

Those who are saying that it's dirty are doing so because the guy lowered the crown of his head, threw his hands up with no real intent to wrap up and didn't even lower himself at the waist to make the hit. I'm not measuring intent (at least within the context of this post, I'm not) but the things you listed above - game changing fumble, highlight reel hit - aren't these things just as attainable if he lowers himself at the waist, wrap up and spear Schaub in the body/chest? A simple 1-2 degree bend at his waist, and the whole hit is a clean, hard football tackle and a great play. If he does that, he's got a chance at getting everything that he was going for, all within the context of the rules of the game. He's able to keep his $50,000 and he's playing next week if he does that. But, that's the rub - he didn't. He didn't try to promote that he was looking to wrap up, with the way his hands went. He just charged in, lowered his head and threw his hands up.

You don't have to attempt to figure out intent, but given any of the actions the guy took, was there ANY reason to believe that he was going for a rules-approved tackle?

Quote:
I personally miss those days, but that is just me.

These days are easily missed when it's not your QB who is taking that hit. Given the precarious nature of the vertebra in the neck of your QB, I would wager that you would be BESIDES YOURSELF if that sort of hit were to happen to Peyton Manning, much like I am with this hit on Matt Schaub.
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Joe_is_the_best


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
JDLefebvre wrote:
^^^ He doesn't even attempt to wrap his arms to make a tackle.
Problem is the guy doesn't know how to tackle correctly. It was a pretty dumb play and he deserved a suspension, but there wasn't malicious intent.

If he wanted to end Schaub's career he could have shoved him high or clothes lined him, which he did neither. Not attempting a wrap up tackle =/= intent to injure.


I'm sorry, but that's a joke. If he wanted to end Shaub's career, he would have shoved him high? Thank God he only ran helmet-first into Shaub's chin....
I guess landing on your back is more dangerous than landing on your head...


And getting shoved high is more dangerous than getting speared in the head by the crown of a LBers helmet?

Dirty hit, no arguing it. He was clearly trying to take Schaub out, rather than make a tackle.
Didn't say it wasn't dirty. You can't judge intent from that play. The only intent you can judge is that he didn't try to wrap up, which isn't illegal in and of itself. Once again, not trying to wrap up =/= intent to injure. It could be that he was going for a big hit, and simply missed, wouldn't be the first time it happened.

Many times, Mays goes for the big hit instead of wrapping up. It doesn't mean he tries to injure every time he tackles.
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eagles101


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i feel that new GIF really shows how less intense it really was. he lunged for him right before he released the ball, if shaub didnt move his shoulder back it would have hit his shoulder, and it looks like he doesnt wrap up because he knows the QB already threw the ball.

penalty and fine worthy yes, suspension worthy muh i guess....but i dont see how people are blowing this up into this extremely horrendous hit.
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I don't understand most of that, but I can tell it's probably inaccurate.
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dbtb135


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
JDLefebvre wrote:
^^^ He doesn't even attempt to wrap his arms to make a tackle.
Problem is the guy doesn't know how to tackle correctly. It was a pretty dumb play and he deserved a suspension, but there wasn't malicious intent.

If he wanted to end Schaub's career he could have shoved him high or clothes lined him, which he did neither. Not attempting a wrap up tackle =/= intent to injure.


I'm sorry, but that's a joke. If he wanted to end Shaub's career, he would have shoved him high? Thank God he only ran helmet-first into Shaub's chin....
I guess landing on your back is more dangerous than landing on your head...


This is the definition of grasping at straws. If you'd rather get hit with the crown of the helmet than shoved in the head, then maybe you've taken one too many hits to the head already. People thought this hit was dirty when it happened. It getting him suspended on goes to back that up.
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champ+jay+al=SB


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
champ+jay+al=SB wrote:
My initial judgement of the play was definitely wrong. He was clearly going in to light him up and it was vicious. Deserves what he got. BUT I don't think anyone really has the right to come at Mays as if he was purposely trying to injure Schaub. How are you gonna say what his intent is? Mays head is down before the ball is released and if he gets there less than a second sooner that is a fumble and a game changer. But yeah I mean he was going for a big, highlight hit. So I guess if you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with Mays.

Those who are saying that it's dirty are doing so because the guy lowered the crown of his head, threw his hands up with no real intent to wrap up and didn't even lower himself at the waist to make the hit. I'm not measuring intent (at least within the context of this post, I'm not) but the things you listed above - game changing fumble, highlight reel hit - aren't these things just as attainable if he lowers himself at the waist, wrap up and spear Schaub in the body/chest? A simple 1-2 degree bend at his waist, and the whole hit is a clean, hard football tackle and a great play. If he does that, he's got a chance at getting everything that he was going for, all within the context of the rules of the game. He's able to keep his $50,000 and he's playing next week if he does that. But, that's the rub - he didn't. He didn't try to promote that he was looking to wrap up, with the way his hands went. He just charged in, lowered his head and threw his hands up.

You don't have to attempt to figure out intent, but given any of the actions the guy took, was there ANY reason to believe that he was going for a rules-approved tackle?

Quote:
I personally miss those days, but that is just me.

These days are easily missed when it's not your QB who is taking that hit. Given the precarious nature of the vertebra in the neck of your QB, I would wager that you would be BESIDES YOURSELF if that sort of hit were to happen to Peyton Manning, much like I am with this hit on Matt Schaub.


I mean, Joe Mays tried to sack Big Ben at least once week one and the guy got the ball away. Which really happens more often than not when the QB is getting wrapped up on the move. Obviously Big Ben is the best of the best at that, but I mean Elvis Dumervil came out of no where for the safety and got Schaub pretty good and he didn't fumble. Schaub was in the pocket, but just using an example from the game. Fumble may happen with a typical tackle, but if Mays gets big hit in the chest it's going to be a fumble. It's a fast game, Mays was going for the game changer when his squad was down 3 scores. You are definitely right in saying that he went too high. I agree that is why it's illegal. He goes lower and we probably aren't talking about it. But he is running full speed at a QB who is starting his throwing motion, clearly trying to get there as soon as possible...he got him in the face mask. People make mistakes and he is paying the price.

I knew someone would bring up PM when I said that. Obviously the whole world holds it's breath if Peyton takes that hit. But if he is in after one play I mean I would be fine with it. I would be happy to know that my QB is a boss. I would definitely recognize the fact that the dude would get crucified like Mays is, but I personally wouldn't be the one doing it. That's my take man. I get where people are coming from. I'm just like, easy off boys.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
Justice has been served. I really thought Matt Schaub's season was over, or a good portion of it would be missed with a severe concussion. That hit was blatant and illegal in every sense of the word; Guy just charged into Matt and lowered his head and cracked right into Matt's head. I have a hard time believing his intent was anything but ring Schaub's bell...and he couldn't even do THAT right.


Did the play get a flag?

TB did the same thing to Romo - crown to ear hole and I swore he was knocked out or atleast concussed but he got up and passed the check. That play didn't get a flag but will surely get a fine though it may get more after this
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Typical_Lions


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
Justice has been served. I really thought Matt Schaub's season was over, or a good portion of it would be missed with a severe concussion. That hit was blatant and illegal in every sense of the word; Guy just charged into Matt and lowered his head and cracked right into Matt's head. I have a hard time believing his intent was anything but ring Schaub's bell...and he couldn't even do THAT right.


Did the play get a flag?

TB did the same thing to Romo - crown to ear hole and I swore he was knocked out or atleast concussed but he got up and passed the check. That play didn't get a flag but will surely get a fine though it may get more after this


Yeah it did get a flag.
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champ+jay+al=SB


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
Justice has been served. I really thought Matt Schaub's season was over, or a good portion of it would be missed with a severe concussion. That hit was blatant and illegal in every sense of the word; Guy just charged into Matt and lowered his head and cracked right into Matt's head. I have a hard time believing his intent was anything but ring Schaub's bell...and he couldn't even do THAT right.


Did the play get a flag?

TB did the same thing to Romo - crown to ear hole and I swore he was knocked out or atleast concussed but he got up and passed the check. That play didn't get a flag but will surely get a fine though it may get more after this


Yeah there was a flag, rightfully so. They threw it a few seconds after the play, though, as the Houston bench was going bonkers...as they should have been. Based on what we have seen from the replacement refs, if Mays forces a fumble and the Broncos recover it/go house, which was possible....and the stadium is going nuts. It's possible the officials don't throw that flag since they are so blatantly scared of the home crowd. Just saying, to further defend Mays intent and whatnot. Obviously was a flag though.
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Joe_is_the_best


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
JDLefebvre wrote:
^^^ He doesn't even attempt to wrap his arms to make a tackle.
Problem is the guy doesn't know how to tackle correctly. It was a pretty dumb play and he deserved a suspension, but there wasn't malicious intent.

If he wanted to end Schaub's career he could have shoved him high or clothes lined him, which he did neither. Not attempting a wrap up tackle =/= intent to injure.


I'm sorry, but that's a joke. If he wanted to end Shaub's career, he would have shoved him high? Thank God he only ran helmet-first into Shaub's chin....
I guess landing on your back is more dangerous than landing on your head...


This is the definition of grasping at straws. If you'd rather get hit with the crown of the helmet than shoved in the head, then maybe you've taken one too many hits to the head already. People thought this hit was dirty when it happened. It getting him suspended on goes to back that up.
I think you need to look up the definition. You didn't even address what I said. Flipping someone upside down is more dangerous than hitting them straight on no?
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
JDLefebvre wrote:
^^^ He doesn't even attempt to wrap his arms to make a tackle.
Problem is the guy doesn't know how to tackle correctly. It was a pretty dumb play and he deserved a suspension, but there wasn't malicious intent.

If he wanted to end Schaub's career he could have shoved him high or clothes lined him, which he did neither. Not attempting a wrap up tackle =/= intent to injure.


I'm sorry, but that's a joke. If he wanted to end Shaub's career, he would have shoved him high? Thank God he only ran helmet-first into Shaub's chin....
I guess landing on your back is more dangerous than landing on your head...


This is the definition of grasping at straws. If you'd rather get hit with the crown of the helmet than shoved in the head, then maybe you've taken one too many hits to the head already. People thought this hit was dirty when it happened. It getting him suspended on goes to back that up.
I think you need to look up the definition. You didn't even address what I said. Flipping someone upside down is more dangerous than hitting them straight on no?


There are so many variables that go into every hit. It's impossible to make an absolute judgment on which of 2 hits is more dangerous based on a sentence or two of description.
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dbtb135


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
JDLefebvre wrote:
^^^ He doesn't even attempt to wrap his arms to make a tackle.
Problem is the guy doesn't know how to tackle correctly. It was a pretty dumb play and he deserved a suspension, but there wasn't malicious intent.

If he wanted to end Schaub's career he could have shoved him high or clothes lined him, which he did neither. Not attempting a wrap up tackle =/= intent to injure.


I'm sorry, but that's a joke. If he wanted to end Shaub's career, he would have shoved him high? Thank God he only ran helmet-first into Shaub's chin....
I guess landing on your back is more dangerous than landing on your head...


This is the definition of grasping at straws. If you'd rather get hit with the crown of the helmet than shoved in the head, then maybe you've taken one too many hits to the head already. People thought this hit was dirty when it happened. It getting him suspended on goes to back that up.
I think you need to look up the definition. You didn't even address what I said. Flipping someone upside down is more dangerous than hitting them straight on no?


Flipping someone upside down is worse? Yeah, good point. I'm also glad that he didn't dropkick him ala The Waterboy. The way you explain it makes it sound cleaner than I ever imagined....
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Joe_is_the_best


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
dbtb135 wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
JDLefebvre wrote:
^^^ He doesn't even attempt to wrap his arms to make a tackle.
Problem is the guy doesn't know how to tackle correctly. It was a pretty dumb play and he deserved a suspension, but there wasn't malicious intent.

If he wanted to end Schaub's career he could have shoved him high or clothes lined him, which he did neither. Not attempting a wrap up tackle =/= intent to injure.


I'm sorry, but that's a joke. If he wanted to end Shaub's career, he would have shoved him high? Thank God he only ran helmet-first into Shaub's chin....
I guess landing on your back is more dangerous than landing on your head...


This is the definition of grasping at straws. If you'd rather get hit with the crown of the helmet than shoved in the head, then maybe you've taken one too many hits to the head already. People thought this hit was dirty when it happened. It getting him suspended on goes to back that up.
I think you need to look up the definition. You didn't even address what I said. Flipping someone upside down is more dangerous than hitting them straight on no?


There are so many variables that go into every hit. It's impossible to make an absolute judgment on which of 2 hits is more dangerous based on a sentence or two of description.
This is exactly what I was trying to say. You can't make an absolute judgement on Mays' intent, and that's why you're trying to do isn't it?
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe_is_the_best wrote:
tylerdouglass wrote:
Joe_is_the_best wrote:
Flipping someone upside down is more dangerous than hitting them straight on no?


There are so many variables that go into every hit. It's impossible to make an absolute judgment on which of 2 hits is more dangerous based on a sentence or two of description.
This is exactly what I was trying to say. You can't make an absolute judgement on Mays' intent, and that's why you're trying to do isn't it?


You completely used my quote out of context to make your point. You completely ignored the context actually. Ignored it to a level I've never seen on these forums, in fact.

Not to mention you completely ignored that part that I've made green.
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