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Losing these types of games is a good thing
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pats#1 wrote:

The absolute worst thing that could come from that loss is no HFA...and we all know from this past game that we can definitely beat them in their own house.


What? Here are worse things that could come from this loss:

Pats lose tiebreaker to Ravens for #2 seed and miss out on a first round bye

Pats still get #2 seed but not #1 because they are 12-4 instead of 13-3, they have to go to Houston in the AFCCG rather than Houston coming to Foxboro (potentially)

The one extra loss is the difference between winning the division or not

The Patriots, having lost to Baltimore might end up in a situation where they are forced to play their starters for all of Week 17 to secure a bye or HFA instead of being able to take guys out. Obviously, this increases injury risk

It's really stupid to think losses are good things. Did the Patriots really "learn" anything from the loss against Arizona? They were sloppier on defense in Baltimore and while the offense performed better, it still suffered from the same problems it often does - inconsistencies, brain-dead playcalling and an inability to shut the door with a lead.

There's absolutely nothing that can be taught or learned from this loss that couldn't have been taught or learned with a win.
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Pats#1


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Pats#1 wrote:

The absolute worst thing that could come from that loss is no HFA...and we all know from this past game that we can definitely beat them in their own house.


What? Here are worse things that could come from this loss:

Pats lose tiebreaker to Ravens for #2 seed and miss out on a first round bye

Pats still get #2 seed but not #1 because they are 12-4 instead of 13-3, they have to go to Houston in the AFCCG rather than Houston coming to Foxboro (potentially)

The one extra loss is the difference between winning the division or not

The Patriots, having lost to Baltimore might end up in a situation where they are forced to play their starters for all of Week 17 to secure a bye or HFA instead of being able to take guys out. Obviously, this increases injury risk

It's really stupid to think losses are good things. Did the Patriots really "learn" anything from the loss against Arizona? They were sloppier on defense in Baltimore and while the offense performed better, it still suffered from the same problems it often does - inconsistencies, brain-dead playcalling and an inability to shut the door with a lead.

There's absolutely nothing that can be taught or learned from this loss that couldn't have been taught or learned with a win.


Of course....I should have expected you'd come in and talk about the end of the world.

A single loss could obviously end up meaning a lot more....but with this team, and this schedule, and the talent in there division, there is no way they don't make the playoffs, so hence, the worst is that they lose HFA.

You seriously need to stop looking for the smallest things to hate on the patriots for, because I've met fans like you before and they are the most annoying in the world....never ever happy or have anything good to say unless they win the superbowl. News flash, no team is perfect, and no team is gonna perform perfectly week in week out. You have to look at everything and see what the teams tendencies are.

If you read my posts, I wasn't talking about actual schemes and plays they could learn from as much as simple emotion and drive.

I talked about how losing these types of games would [inappropriate/removed] them off and force them to play with a chip on their shoulder, something they havent done in a while...and I think we can all agree that they play their best ball when they are playing pissed off but under control.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pats#1 wrote:

A single loss could obviously end up meaning a lot more....but with this team, and this schedule, and the talent in there division, there is no way they don't make the playoffs, so hence, the worst is that they lose HFA.


You need basic thinking ability. Losing HFA? How about a bye week? Houston looks like the #1 seed. That leaves New England and Baltimore vying for #2. Losing a bye week is way more important IMO than HFA in the AFCCG.

Quote:
You seriously need to stop looking for the smallest things to hate on the patriots for, because I've met fans like you before and they are the most annoying in the world....never ever happy or have anything good to say unless they win the superbowl.


I have plenty of good to say. Either you don't read well or you forget easily. I really couldn't care less if you think I'm the "most annoying in the world". It's all about expectations. When the Patriots were 1-15, I felt great when they won 2 or 6 games in subsequent years. I remember going (almost) as crazy for the Kevin Turner/Leonard Russell game winning lateral play as I did for Vinatieri's Snow Bowl kick. My expectations for a team with the greatest head coach in modern history, a top 5 QB and a top 5 (IMO) roster from 1-53 is not to lose in the same manner over and over, not to make boneheaded playcalls, not to put themselves in a hole where their possible last good chance at a 4th ring is in jeopardy?



Quote:
News flash, no team is perfect, and no team is gonna perform perfectly week in week out. You have to look at everything and see what the teams tendencies are.


When did I say the Patriots needed to be perfect? How about, learning from their mistakes? We know Josh McDaniels, if he learns from his mistakes, does a poor job at taking what he's learned and evolving/adapting. This team's tendencies are very much what I'm talking about. Their tendency to let teams (especially good teams) back into games that the Patriots should put away. How many times have we seen it over the last 5 years? Not just the crushing losses, but the games which should have been out of hand but the Pats give up late points to make it a close game?

Quote:
If you read my posts, I wasn't talking about actual schemes and plays they could learn from as much as simple emotion and drive.


Ah right. I heard this before SB46 "the Patriots have a grudge against the Giants!" or " the Patriots have learned from their mistakes!"

Intangibles never trump execution. It's BS. Never has a team executed poorly but won on account of "drive". People just remember the "fired up" and "motivated" guys when the team wins a big game. If the team loses, nobody remembers the "emotion" of the losing team.

Execution trumps all.

Quote:
I talked about how losing these types of games would [inappropriate/removed] them off and force them to play with a chip on their shoulder, something they havent done in a while...and I think we can all agree that they play their best ball when they are playing pissed off but under control.


I don't remember the Patriots playing "pissed off but under control" at any point in the Super Bowl winning years. Maybe in the first half of 2007 post-Spygate but that was more Belichick saying "up yours NFL" more than the players playing "pissed off but under control".

I certainly didn't see them playing "pissed off but under control" last year in the playoffs did you? Did the "chip on their shoulder" appear magically for the Broncos game and half of the Ravens game and then disappear?

Every team in the NFL except those who are totally moribund or led by a total incompetent are fired up and play with emotion. It's the nature of the league. The 2004 Patriots was probably the best executing team we've seen in New England from opening day to the end of the year. That team played with a quiet professionalism and confidence. Sure, there were tough and nasty guys on that team but that team wasn't especially "pissed off but under control".

You know what makes guys look "pissed off but under control"? Winning. Executing. You don't need to lose to learn how to execute better.

Accepting losing or trying to put a spin on a team failing to execute properly is just flat out dumb. You think Bill Belichick wants to lose? You think he thinks losing is a good thing? If the Pats lose the next game and drop to 1-3 will it still be a good thing? I mean, they'll be even MORE pissed off right?
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finn54


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, keep it civil.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I do agree with "it could mean a lot worse than HFA" talk, I'm not ready to crown the Texans as the probably No. 1 seed just yet. They've only played Colts Jags and Broncos. Teams they should (and did) beatdown. I want to see them play a tough team, see how they do when the going isn't easy...that's a franchise that's no stranger to folding like superman on laundry day.
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Pats#1


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Pats#1 wrote:

A single loss could obviously end up meaning a lot more....but with this team, and this schedule, and the talent in there division, there is no way they don't make the playoffs, so hence, the worst is that they lose HFA.


You need basic thinking ability. Losing HFA? How about a bye week? Houston looks like the #1 seed. That leaves New England and Baltimore vying for #2. Losing a bye week is way more important IMO than HFA in the AFCCG.

Quote:
You seriously need to stop looking for the smallest things to hate on the patriots for, because I've met fans like you before and they are the most annoying in the world....never ever happy or have anything good to say unless they win the superbowl.


I have plenty of good to say. Either you don't read well or you forget easily. I really couldn't care less if you think I'm the "most annoying in the world". It's all about expectations. When the Patriots were 1-15, I felt great when they won 2 or 6 games in subsequent years. I remember going (almost) as crazy for the Kevin Turner/Leonard Russell game winning lateral play as I did for Vinatieri's Snow Bowl kick. My expectations for a team with the greatest head coach in modern history, a top 5 QB and a top 5 (IMO) roster from 1-53 is not to lose in the same manner over and over, not to make boneheaded playcalls, not to put themselves in a hole where their possible last good chance at a 4th ring is in jeopardy?



Quote:
News flash, no team is perfect, and no team is gonna perform perfectly week in week out. You have to look at everything and see what the teams tendencies are.


When did I say the Patriots needed to be perfect? How about, learning from their mistakes? We know Josh McDaniels, if he learns from his mistakes, does a poor job at taking what he's learned and evolving/adapting. This team's tendencies are very much what I'm talking about. Their tendency to let teams (especially good teams) back into games that the Patriots should put away. How many times have we seen it over the last 5 years? Not just the crushing losses, but the games which should have been out of hand but the Pats give up late points to make it a close game?

Quote:
If you read my posts, I wasn't talking about actual schemes and plays they could learn from as much as simple emotion and drive.


Ah right. I heard this before SB46 "the Patriots have a grudge against the Giants!" or " the Patriots have learned from their mistakes!"

Intangibles never trump execution. It's BS. Never has a team executed poorly but won on account of "drive". People just remember the "fired up" and "motivated" guys when the team wins a big game. If the team loses, nobody remembers the "emotion" of the losing team.

Execution trumps all.

Quote:
I talked about how losing these types of games would [inappropriate/removed] them off and force them to play with a chip on their shoulder, something they havent done in a while...and I think we can all agree that they play their best ball when they are playing pissed off but under control.


I don't remember the Patriots playing "pissed off but under control" at any point in the Super Bowl winning years. Maybe in the first half of 2007 post-Spygate but that was more Belichick saying "up yours NFL" more than the players playing "pissed off but under control".

I certainly didn't see them playing "pissed off but under control" last year in the playoffs did you? Did the "chip on their shoulder" appear magically for the Broncos game and half of the Ravens game and then disappear?

Every team in the NFL except those who are totally moribund or led by a total incompetent are fired up and play with emotion. It's the nature of the league. The 2004 Patriots was probably the best executing team we've seen in New England from opening day to the end of the year. That team played with a quiet professionalism and confidence. Sure, there were tough and nasty guys on that team but that team wasn't especially "pissed off but under control".

You know what makes guys look "pissed off but under control"? Winning. Executing. You don't need to lose to learn how to execute better.

Accepting losing or trying to put a spin on a team failing to execute properly is just flat out dumb. You think Bill Belichick wants to lose? You think he thinks losing is a good thing? If the Pats lose the next game and drop to 1-3 will it still be a good thing? I mean, they'll be even MORE pissed off right?


Kind of in a rush in between meetings so I'll try and make it quick.

Sorry if I upset you with my "most annoying fans in the world" comment, never really meant to bash you personally, just speaking in generalizations. But come on, you really are the most negative fan I've ever seen haha.

I absolutely respect and find it necessary to be very objective and realistic in the way you view a team and certain situations, but there is definitely a difference between being realistic and straight up looking at every angle with the worst case scenario as your view. Either way, we're both fans of the same team, and I like your posts a lot of the time, no matter how frustrating they can be for me to read Laughing , so I take back my comment and apologize.

Now back on topic...

Are the patriots underperforming right now in certain aspects of their game, yes of course, especially since yes, they have all the potential and makings to be a championship team and we should definitely be talking about that, but to completely ignore a lot of the good things that they have showed as well, especially so early in the season, I think the positives need to weighed in just as much as the negatives.

Overall I think the team will be just fine and some hard losses, more along the lines of the cards game, not the ravens, will help the patriots mental toughness when it comes time for the playoffs.

With the bye week, it could be argued both ways, and even though I do agree that I would like a bye week instead of having to play, some would say that its a bit too long of a rest period to hop right into playing a top notch opponent, especially if you rest most of your starters the last week of regular season.

I'm not really sure how you can say intangibles don't matter either...of course great execution is the most obvious positives to look at from a fans perspective, however its my opinion that football, being such a tough game, mentally and physically, is just as reliant on how mentally tough someone is. You can't sit there and tell me that intangibles don't matter, because they do. They may not always be easy to see, but they do have an impact. If a QB is mentally weak, then he is going to have a much harder time coordinating that last winning drive with 2 minutes left and the team down by 4.

My main argument is that I simply want to see the patriots of the early and mid 2000s. The ones with the likes of Bruschi and my favorite player of all time Harrison. Those guys, while maybe not the biggest, always played without fear and especially in Harrison's case, put fear into his opponents. I just feel like I'm seeing a team that is very easily broken mentally at the end of a game...and I feel like having a few of these losses is going to [inappropriate/removed] them off, and their competitive nature will take over and force them to play better, to execute better, so that maybe the next time the defense needs a big stop to hold the lead, or the offense, up by one score, needs just a few more points to put it away, they can do it.

But like I said...this is what I'm hoping...not what I'm saying is gonna happen.
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ConnPatFan


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really can't say losing is ever really "good", but lets not forget the last few superb owls have been won by wildcard teams.


Also, as a few people pointed out, we really need to cut down on Wood"2.5ypc"head's runs.
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ConnPatFan wrote:
I really can't say losing is ever really "good", but lets not forget the last few superb owls have been won by wildcard teams.


Also, as a few people pointed out, we really need to cut down on Wood"2.5ypc"head's runs.


Most teams that lose games, lose because they aren't playing well. Not because they are gonna catch fire at the end of the season and win the super bowl.
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lose every game from here, go 1-15, get the #2 Overall pick (yeah, the Browns aren't gonna win a game Laughing ) then draft an absolute stud. Improve us for next year?

amirite
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Pats#1


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

24isthelaw wrote:
ConnPatFan wrote:
I really can't say losing is ever really "good", but lets not forget the last few superb owls have been won by wildcard teams.


Also, as a few people pointed out, we really need to cut down on Wood"2.5ypc"head's runs.


Most teams that lose games, lose because they aren't playing well. Not because they are gonna catch fire at the end of the season and win the super bowl.


I think we can all agree that the Pats are the furthest thing from "most teams"

Are you really gonna say that nothing good could from having hard fought games, won and lost, throughout the regular season....especially after who we've lost to the past two times in the superbowl.
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Pats#1


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
Lose every game from here, go 1-15, get the #2 Overall pick (yeah, the Browns aren't gonna win a game Laughing ) then draft an absolute stud. Improve us for next year?

amirite


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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pats#1 wrote:
24isthelaw wrote:
ConnPatFan wrote:
I really can't say losing is ever really "good", but lets not forget the last few superb owls have been won by wildcard teams.


Also, as a few people pointed out, we really need to cut down on Wood"2.5ypc"head's runs.


Most teams that lose games, lose because they aren't playing well. Not because they are gonna catch fire at the end of the season and win the super bowl.


I think we can all agree that the Pats are the furthest thing from "most teams"

Are you really gonna say that nothing good could from having hard fought games, won and lost, throughout the regular season....especially after who we've lost to the past two times in the superbowl.


No one is saying that hard fought games are a bad thing.

That's not the same as saying losing is a good thing. Losing is never a good thing. Especially in football when the margins are tiny due to the small schedule.

If this were a 32 game schedule, losing 1 "hard fought" game wouldn't be an issue. But when a team can (usually) only get a bye week by losing 4 or fewer games, it's very difficult to just blow off a loss that was snatched from the jaws of victory.

1 game in the NFL is a huge deal, even more so when the loss is to a team you will be battling for playoff seeding.

If the Patriots lose on Sunday in a "hard fought game" will it still be a good thing? What's the difference between losing 2 close games and 3? Or 3 close games and 4? At what point does losing become problematic?

The bottom line is, there isn't anything to be gained from losing a close game. If you need a "wake up call" type game in week 3 coming off a "Wake up call" type game, you're not a good (or well coached) team. If you need a game to get "pissed off but in control" in week 3 and hope to ride that wave of "pissed off" through February, well that seems unlikely.

It's early in the season, the Pats should be trying to get out to as much of a lead in the standings as possible. Losing games that are in hand is inexcusable and never a good thing. For all the talk of making the team tougher and more "pissed off", it could swing the other way and just reinforce the idea that they're not good enough to hold leads in close (or important) games. It could also lead to guys getting uptight and trying to do too much (so to speak). The idea that the intangible outcomes of a close loss are solely positive seems a bit illogical.

Now, if the Patriots go 12-1 in the rest of the season, will this loss really matter much? No. But the point is that the NFL is all about matchups and the effect of a 1st round bye in the playoffs has been proven. You want to be as well positioned as possible in terms of records and tiebreakers heading into post-season as possible.

Losing games like this that they should have won hurts the team's positioning and thus hurts the team's ultimate ability to win a Super Bowl. Can they still do it? Of course. But there isn't much room for error the rest of the way. They can't afford to have further "off days" or be the victims of bad luck/bad bounces or to have games lost due to injury.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Pats#1 wrote:
24isthelaw wrote:
ConnPatFan wrote:
I really can't say losing is ever really "good", but lets not forget the last few superb owls have been won by wildcard teams.


Also, as a few people pointed out, we really need to cut down on Wood"2.5ypc"head's runs.


Most teams that lose games, lose because they aren't playing well. Not because they are gonna catch fire at the end of the season and win the super bowl.


I think we can all agree that the Pats are the furthest thing from "most teams"

Are you really gonna say that nothing good could from having hard fought games, won and lost, throughout the regular season....especially after who we've lost to the past two times in the superbowl.


No one is saying that hard fought games are a bad thing.

That's not the same as saying losing is a good thing. Losing is never a good thing. Especially in football when the margins are tiny due to the small schedule.

If this were a 32 game schedule, losing 1 "hard fought" game wouldn't be an issue. But when a team can (usually) only get a bye week by losing 4 or fewer games, it's very difficult to just blow off a loss that was snatched from the jaws of victory.

1 game in the NFL is a huge deal, even more so when the loss is to a team you will be battling for playoff seeding.

If the Patriots lose on Sunday in a "hard fought game" will it still be a good thing? What's the difference between losing 2 close games and 3? Or 3 close games and 4? At what point does losing become problematic?

The bottom line is, there isn't anything to be gained from losing a close game. If you need a "wake up call" type game in week 3 coming off a "Wake up call" type game, you're not a good (or well coached) team. If you need a game to get "pissed off but in control" in week 3 and hope to ride that wave of "pissed off" through February, well that seems unlikely.

It's early in the season, the Pats should be trying to get out to as much of a lead in the standings as possible. Losing games that are in hand is inexcusable and never a good thing. For all the talk of making the team tougher and more "pissed off", it could swing the other way and just reinforce the idea that they're not good enough to hold leads in close (or important) games. It could also lead to guys getting uptight and trying to do too much (so to speak). The idea that the intangible outcomes of a close loss are solely positive seems a bit illogical.

Now, if the Patriots go 12-1 in the rest of the season, will this loss really matter much? No. But the point is that the NFL is all about matchups and the effect of a 1st round bye in the playoffs has been proven. You want to be as well positioned as possible in terms of records and tiebreakers heading into post-season as possible.

Losing games like this that they should have won hurts the team's positioning and thus hurts the team's ultimate ability to win a Super Bowl. Can they still do it? Of course. But there isn't much room for error the rest of the way. They can't afford to have further "off days" or be the victims of bad luck/bad bounces or to have games lost due to injury.


I can definitely see what your saying and you make some very good points...like I said, I'm not happy they lost, I'm just a glass half full type of guy who would like and hope to think that a BB and Tom Brady led team can turn these tough losses into something positive mentally on the field throughout the rest of the season.

I would love for them to be 3-0 right now, but they aren't, so I'm just trying to roll with the punches and am hoping they can use these two games as motivation and get back on the right track against Buffalo.

Either way, good convo Smile
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