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When will we open up the passing game?
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Yfz01


Joined: 18 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gridirongreat#9 wrote:
Miami49er wrote:
Yea the passing game definitely has me a bit annoyed. I'm not sure and maybe someone can answer this for me. Is it the play calling or is Alex just constantly taking the safe throws and not taking a chance pushing the ball down the field?


Both. Randy is in on a handful of plays and most often when he goes deep it is a double coverage with the exception of I think 5 routes when he has had 1 on 1, but in a lot of those instances he has had a wide open wr\te that could gain the first without any risk. Against the Vikes I didnt see SF run a route past 10 yards, 12 at the most. I could be wrong but it sure seemed like everything was short.


Crabtree is the only one that ran deep, on one play, and he was wide open. It was frustrating watching Alex Smith, because he never looks deep. In the game he didn't make any progressions either. First read wasn't there, he got happy feet and tried to run...
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Yfz01


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sbrown wrote:
steadypimpin wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh9518jqK1A

It's pretty obvious Moss still has moves here. Thats a nice juke, which should have resulted in a touchdown.
I hope that's not the play where some said Randy could've got that because I remember that one too.


That is the play some say moss was lazy or whatever. it was a bad throw. but it was not this great move by moss either. Laughing
On that play Alex needs to stay in the pocket and deliver the strike.


Just a terrible throw. What made it worse was seeing Ponder make an amazing similar throw to Harvin with a very tight window, just one drive prior to that.
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steadypimpin


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yfz01 wrote:
Gridirongreat#9 wrote:
Miami49er wrote:
Yea the passing game definitely has me a bit annoyed. I'm not sure and maybe someone can answer this for me. Is it the play calling or is Alex just constantly taking the safe throws and not taking a chance pushing the ball down the field?


Both. Randy is in on a handful of plays and most often when he goes deep it is a double coverage with the exception of I think 5 routes when he has had 1 on 1, but in a lot of those instances he has had a wide open wr\te that could gain the first without any risk. Against the Vikes I didnt see SF run a route past 10 yards, 12 at the most. I could be wrong but it sure seemed like everything was short.


Crabtree is the only one that ran deep, on one play, and he was wide open. It was frustrating watching Alex Smith, because he never looks deep. In the game he didn't make any progressions either. First read wasn't there, he got happy feet and tried to run...
The play that pissed me off the most was at the beginning of the game where he had nobody open and was out of the pocket and just took a sack when he could've thrown it away.
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iwentundrafted


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yfz01 wrote:
sbrown wrote:
steadypimpin wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh9518jqK1A

It's pretty obvious Moss still has moves here. Thats a nice juke, which should have resulted in a touchdown.
I hope that's not the play where some said Randy could've got that because I remember that one too.


That is the play one person says moss was lazy or whatever. it was a bad throw. but it was not this great move by moss either. Laughing
On that play Alex needs to stay in the pocket and deliver the strike.


Just a terrible throw. What made it worse was seeing Ponder make an amazing similar throw to Harvin with a very tight window, just one drive prior to that.


Fixed it for you.

Also...

Of the NFLís top 10 QBs in rating, #49ers Alex Smith is tied for fewest deep passes attempted. From @PFF Ö
The top 10 QBs, ranked by number of pass attempts that have traveled at least 20 yards:

Quote:
1. Joe Flacco, Ravens: 22
(9 of 22, 290 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT)
2. Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers: 14
(5 of 14, 125 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT)
3. Andy Dalton, Bengals: 12
(4 of 12, 118 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT)
4. Eli Manning, Giants: 11
(6 of 11, 271 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT)
5. Matt Schaub, Texans: 9
(3 of 9, 141 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT)
6. Robert Griffin, Redskins: 7
(3 of 7, 123 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT)
T7. Christian Ponder, Vikings: 5
(1 of 5, 26 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT)
T7. Matt Ryan, Falcons: 5
(1 of 5, 29 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT)
T9. Kevin Kolb, Cardinals: 4
(1 of 4, 37 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT)
T9. Alex Smith, 49ers: 4
(3 of 4, 63 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT)


Via Eric Branch tweet.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldman9er wrote:
I'd like to see a hanful of deep shots per game myself. I get that we are a ball control, heavy run, blah blah blah offense... but c'mon already...


Exaactly. Don't have to change the preferred approach. In fact, it's quite likely doing that would make the runs and shorter passes more successful.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sbrown wrote:
In our three wide sets, there usually is a wr going deep. the problem is two fold...

for example you line up two wide on left side and single wr on right, TE in right slot.... left outside wr runs a deep dig (left to right). slot left runs a seam route (moss) TE runs a shallow cross (right to left) and right outside wr runs a 6 yd curl. this is a common play in niner playbook.(or any team playbook, in different formations of course) but Alex's first option is to see where the safety goes at snap of the ball to either the seam route or stay home on the shallow cross. if he peels back to the seam route he checks it down to the TE cross. the problem with this is that the safety is already 15 yds off the LOS so he immediately is in the seam route, however if alex waits in the pocket the seam route would open up. But since the high safety is there alex will go to TE cross. Its the higher % throw. IF the LB jumps the cross, alex will hit the dig route 10-15 yds down field.

Alex hasnt developed the patience to sit in the pocket long enough to wait for the fly route (seam)to open up. If you watch the average time a brady, brees, ben or rodgers sits in the pocket it is much longer than alex. alex doesnt manuver in the pocket as well as these QB's either. The flip side is that with this mindset alex doesnt turn the ball over as much as he used to or as much as these other QB's either. because he gets it off much quicker to his intermediate routes he avoids the sacks, and potiential TO's.

I said this is a two fold issue becasue by these plays being drawn up this way, it gives alex easier crossing routes to hit quicker in the progression which allows us to stay on schedule with the down markers. if we are constanlty picking up 5-7 yds on 2nd and 3rd downs we are moving the chains and not turning the ball over, which has been a receipe for success for alex and our offense that we really cant dispute up to now.


Not arguing this pooint Jut wondering if you have any stats or sources that can demonstrate this I know that last year I saw a stat that showedd the average time before qbs were sacked. Alex's average time was very low In other words he was getting hit sooner than most other qbs. To me that points to a third source of the problem Inadequate time to hold the ball and find guys open deep. Sacks are often drive killers and we're trying to avoid those.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ataal wrote:
I've always felt the signings of Jenkins, Moss, and Manningham was not because we would throw it more often, but that when we do throw it, we have players that can make those plays with a higher percentage than what we've had. Heck, the names alone make a difference on the field(and off the field).

That being said, our offense was so vanilla during the Vikings game, it wasn't even funny. You've got to take a shot downfield once in a while. Otherwise, the defense will do exactly what the Vikings defense did, populate the field 5-15 yards from the line of scrimmage. This not only hurts our short yardage passing game, it hurts our running game as well. Which it did. We could have taken advantage of this with a 20+ yard throw into one man coverage. Maybe we tried, but I don't remember it. We abandoned the run early, which hurt us in passing as well. Then, with what? 6 minutes or so left to play and down two scores, we went back to the run? Ugh.



To some degree, I'm glad Alex got that interception. Talk about relieving some pressure to keep it safe. Let's see how we adjust in the Jets game before we get too crazy with the deep ball talk.


I said this last year, and nothing I've seen this year has chaned my minnd ... Roman had some of the most creative runs in the game, but is way far behind that in creativity in the passing game. I realizzze we have a rather conservatve philosohy, still we just don't seem to be anywhere near as good as other teams in our passing game (I mean the pllays, not the execution).
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been out of touch for days, so just catching up. My single biggest frustration about our passing game is something I've said in lots of game threads last year and (sadly) again this year We HAVE to stop throwing third down passes short of the first down marker. We do that time after time after time, and our conversion rate on those plays is miserable All it does is get us a few more yards of field position and that's a lousy tradeoff for giving up on the chance of making the first down. We only get so many drives per game, and we keep giving up too many of them without a real effort to make the first. To me that's just a loser approach to the game. As countless experts keep saying, playing not to lose rather than to win often results in losing rather than winning.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been out of touch for days, so just catching up. My single biggest frustration about our passing game is something I've said in lots of game threads last year and (sadly) again this year We HAVE to stop throwing third down passes short of the first down marker. We do that time after time after time, and our conversion rate on those plays is miserable All it does is get us a few more yards of field position and that's a lousy tradeoff for giving up on the chance of making the first down. We only get so many drives per game, and we keep giving up too many of them without a real effort to make the first. To me that's just a loser approach to the game. As countless experts keep saying, playing not to lose rather than to win often results in losing rather than winning.
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Psychlone


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan, not being the grammar/spelling nazi but I was concerned that your account was hacked by "49erguy" the last several posts. Just funnin' with ya as it brought back memories... Laughing
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to PFF:

Alex Smith has been pressured on 24.5 % of his drop backs which is great as it ranked the 3rd best in the league only behind Stafford and Brady. However, Smith is sacked on 37.5% of the time he gets pressured which is the 2nd worse in the league only behind Andy Dalton. He definitely has held on to the ball way too long at times. The offensive line for the most part is playing well and giving him enough time. I expect us to take some shots this game.
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sbrown


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
sbrown wrote:
In our three wide sets, there usually is a wr going deep. the problem is two fold...

for example you line up two wide on left side and single wr on right, TE in right slot.... left outside wr runs a deep dig (left to right). slot left runs a seam route (moss) TE runs a shallow cross (right to left) and right outside wr runs a 6 yd curl. this is a common play in niner playbook.(or any team playbook, in different formations of course) but Alex's first option is to see where the safety goes at snap of the ball to either the seam route or stay home on the shallow cross. if he peels back to the seam route he checks it down to the TE cross. the problem with this is that the safety is already 15 yds off the LOS so he immediately is in the seam route, however if alex waits in the pocket the seam route would open up. But since the high safety is there alex will go to TE cross. Its the higher % throw. IF the LB jumps the cross, alex will hit the dig route 10-15 yds down field.

Alex hasnt developed the patience to sit in the pocket long enough to wait for the fly route (seam)to open up. If you watch the average time a brady, brees, ben or rodgers sits in the pocket it is much longer than alex. alex doesnt manuver in the pocket as well as these QB's either. The flip side is that with this mindset alex doesnt turn the ball over as much as he used to or as much as these other QB's either. because he gets it off much quicker to his intermediate routes he avoids the sacks, and potiential TO's.

I said this is a two fold issue becasue by these plays being drawn up this way, it gives alex easier crossing routes to hit quicker in the progression which allows us to stay on schedule with the down markers. if we are constanlty picking up 5-7 yds on 2nd and 3rd downs we are moving the chains and not turning the ball over, which has been a receipe for success for alex and our offense that we really cant dispute up to now.


Not arguing this pooint Jut wondering if you have any stats or sources that can demonstrate this I know that last year I saw a stat that showedd the average time before qbs were sacked. Alex's average time was very low In other words he was getting hit sooner than most other qbs. To me that points to a third source of the problem Inadequate time to hold the ball and find guys open deep. Sacks are often drive killers and we're trying to avoid those.


no stats to back it up. But its widely known that big ben and romo and brady are great at manuevering in the pocket. its kinda like looking for a stat on who has the best cross over. But my point is the Qb's i mentioned make more plays downfield by either staying in the pocket longer and not just in the pocket but i mean by buying more time in the pocket or around the tackle box. They are looking for the deep pass so they buy/create more time to allow the wr to get open deep. in the same situation when the pocket breaks down alex will still throw it to an intermediate wr, or throw it away.

but there is a love hate issue with this. a few years ago during the nolan era alex would attempt to make deeper passes downfield. this would cause alot of sacks and ints and obviously plenty of losses. under sing and JH he has shortened his passes and cut down on the ints. and now the wins have come.

as i mentioned before I would LOVE for us to become the offensive power house we have been known for. 2 of the top 10 QB's of all time have been here. the top 3 wr's of all time have been here. I want to rekindle that tradition. I still think in the next few weeks we wont remember this past sunday tho!
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would help tremendously if those passes Alex throws accurately (which has been more often than not) would be caught... Alex has not been perfect in any way, but we frequently lead the league in dropped passes. Confused
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Ataal


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Been out of touch for days, so just catching up. My single biggest frustration about our passing game is something I've said in lots of game threads last year and (sadly) again this year We HAVE to stop throwing third down passes short of the first down marker. We do that time after time after time, and our conversion rate on those plays is miserable All it does is get us a few more yards of field position and that's a lousy tradeoff for giving up on the chance of making the first down. We only get so many drives per game, and we keep giving up too many of them without a real effort to make the first. To me that's just a loser approach to the game. As countless experts keep saying, playing not to lose rather than to win often results in losing rather than winning.


While I agree with this statement, I also understand why we do it. The defense knows where the 1st down marker is on the field and they populate that area. Throwing to just before that line has a much higher chance of having someone open and it being caught with room to try and get more YAC. But, if someone can't get the YAC, it's all a moot point. Definitely a big pros/cons kind of thing.

Honestly, if we're going to rely on YAC to get 1st downs on 3rd and long, I'd rather suck the defense in and throw a 20 yard pass. Our 3rd down conversions are already horrible. Why not at least take a chance once in a while? On the next one, go back to our YAC. Mix it up a little bit. Keep the defense guessing. Staying with this vanilla offense is going to end up losing us some games and with Seattle's and Arizona's defenses making huge strides, this season could get ugly, fast.
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SoCalNiner


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ataal wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Been out of touch for days, so just catching up. My single biggest frustration about our passing game is something I've said in lots of game threads last year and (sadly) again this year We HAVE to stop throwing third down passes short of the first down marker. We do that time after time after time, and our conversion rate on those plays is miserable All it does is get us a few more yards of field position and that's a lousy tradeoff for giving up on the chance of making the first down. We only get so many drives per game, and we keep giving up too many of them without a real effort to make the first. To me that's just a loser approach to the game. As countless experts keep saying, playing not to lose rather than to win often results in losing rather than winning.


While I agree with this statement, I also understand why we do it. The defense knows where the 1st down marker is on the field and they populate that area. Throwing to just before that line has a much higher chance of having someone open and it being caught with room to try and get more YAC. But, if someone can't get the YAC, it's all a moot point. Definitely a big pros/cons kind of thing.

Honestly, if we're going to rely on YAC to get 1st downs on 3rd and long, I'd rather suck the defense in and throw a 20 yard pass. Our 3rd down conversions are already horrible. Why not at least take a chance once in a while? On the next one, go back to our YAC. Mix it up a little bit. Keep the defense guessing. Staying with this vanilla offense is going to end up losing us some games and with Seattle's and Arizona's defenses making huge strides, this season could get ugly, fast.


I agree with this. It would be alright it we did it once in a while, but we do it so much, and it's the reason for our low 3rd down conversion rate. Crabtree made it work during that last drive of the Lion's game, but we can't rely on that. We fail on it more times than we succeed.
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