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CriminalMind
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
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Location: Toronto, CA
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 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by CriminalMind on Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CriminalMind
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
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Location: Toronto, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| CriminalMind wrote: | | I would need a draft pick around 17, for me to consider trading Percy Harvin. |
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PurpleMugen
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: Rutgers University
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: |
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Does it even matter whether or not Harvin fits the mold of a 'typical' top-10 WR? Why even bother trying to rank him traditionally? What he brings to the table does not really require this kind of evaluation, imo.
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CriminalMind
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
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Location: Toronto, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:49 am Post subject: |
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Harvin is #1 as WR/KR/RB combination in the league.
Theres nothing traditional about Percy.
Molding and looking at Receiving Yards at the WR position, ignores the amount of value he brings in other facets of that.
Lets just say ranking the "traditional" positions Percy covers.
Traditional WR - Percy Ranks #16 (or so)
Traditional KR - Percy Ranks #1 (or so)
Traditional RB - Percy Ranks #20-25 (just a guess)
Now pay him a salary for each of these independently and then add them up for a total salary.
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faceofflax15
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| CriminalMind wrote: | Harvin is #1 as WR/KR/RB combination in the league.
Theres nothing traditional about Percy.
Molding and looking at Receiving Yards at the WR position, ignores the amount of value he brings in other facets of that.
Lets just say ranking the "traditional" positions Percy covers.
Traditional WR - Percy Ranks #16 (or so)
Traditional KR - Percy Ranks #1 (or so)
Traditional RB - Percy Ranks #20-25 (just a guess)
Now pay him a salary for each of these independently and then add them up for a total salary. |
That would be roughly $11 million per year.
That's if my math is right based on per year contracts from: Marion Manningham*, Devin Hester, and Ryan Matthews.
*I chose Marion Mannigham since he was a recent contract of someone considered to be a top 20 WR. Based on receiving stats rank alone: #15 Marques Colston's contract was ridiculous, #17 Lance Moore's contract was roughly $4million a year and that was double Manningham's. #16 Cecil Short earned under $500k this year so I thought was because it's rookie contract. |
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vikingsrule
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 39774
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| PurpleMugen wrote: | | Does it even matter whether or not Harvin fits the mold of a 'typical' top-10 WR? Why even bother trying to rank him traditionally? What he brings to the table does not really require this kind of evaluation, imo. |
Yes and no. It matters from a business perspective and his value relative to the rest of the league in terms of finding fair compensation. What is fair? That is kind of my point in all of this. Harvin isnt a traditional WR in a sense of what poeple expect a top 10 WR to be, in function. we can all agree on this. It just comes down to perspective and how valuable his role is. what is the financial value for his role?
Just to point out, Wes Welker has struggled to get a big contract and will likely be leaving New England this year for the same reason. If the Pats felt Welker was so valuable for his role as an underneath/YAC receiver, he would have been taken care of immediately. Welker's production is probably the peak of what Harvin has the potential to be, and even Welker who has produced, sill isnt getting the financial recognition.
Granted, Harvin is more explosive, a better athlete and faster, stronger and quicker; Welker does everything better football wise, ie route running, catching, getting open, etc. Welker has even developed into a decent perimeter receiver the past few years, and while certainly age does play a factor in his situation, there really is not a strong market inside receivers. I am also intrigued by Victor Cruz's situation, as a young slot receiver. Though Cruz is probably a step above Harvin in terms of production and worthiness of a big contract. |
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ArcticNorseman
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 1446
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Percy's entering his prime playing years as one of the top threats in the game.
I think he deserves to be paid well, keep him happy, but not so much he's not hungry to get more. Tough to balance that with some of the drama he brings to a team.
That said, he's better than his comparisons of Josh Cribbs, Wes Welker, and Devin Hester when considering the total game each brings.
If Steve Smith of Carolina, when entering his prime, is Percy's closest comparison, then Percy should get more money than Smith . . . say split the difference between Smith and Fitz.
Yep, that would put Percy in the 7 or 8-year, $75 million ($20+ million guaranteed) category.
If he's not enamored with that offer, trade his butt next February.  |
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faceofflax15
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ArcticNorseman wrote: | Percy's entering his prime playing years as one of the top threats in the game.
I think he deserves to be paid well, keep him happy, but not so much he's not hungry to get more. Tough to balance that with some of the drama he brings to a team.
That said, he's better than his comparisons of Josh Cribbs, Wes Welker, and Devin Hester when considering the total game each brings.
If Steve Smith of Carolina, when entering his prime, is Percy's closest comparison, then Percy should get more money than Smith . . . say split the difference between Smith and Fitz.
Yep, that would put Percy in the 7 or 8-year, $75 million ($20+ million guaranteed) category.
If he's not enamored with that offer, trade his butt next February. |
I say that's more than fair. Get him locked up as a Viking for the rest of Adrian's career. Two exceptional NFL weapons. |
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PurpleMugen
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 3639
Location: Rutgers University
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| vikingsrule wrote: | | PurpleMugen wrote: | | Does it even matter whether or not Harvin fits the mold of a 'typical' top-10 WR? Why even bother trying to rank him traditionally? What he brings to the table does not really require this kind of evaluation, imo. |
Yes and no. It matters from a business perspective and his value relative to the rest of the league in terms of finding fair compensation. What is fair? That is kind of my point in all of this. Harvin isnt a traditional WR in a sense of what poeple expect a top 10 WR to be, in function. we can all agree on this. It just comes down to perspective and how valuable his role is. what is the financial value for his role?
Just to point out, Wes Welker has struggled to get a big contract and will likely be leaving New England this year for the same reason. If the Pats felt Welker was so valuable for his role as an underneath/YAC receiver, he would have been taken care of immediately. Welker's production is probably the peak of what Harvin has the potential to be, and even Welker who has produced, sill isnt getting the financial recognition.
Granted, Harvin is more explosive, a better athlete and faster, stronger and quicker; Welker does everything better football wise, ie route running, catching, getting open, etc. Welker has even developed into a decent perimeter receiver the past few years, and while certainly age does play a factor in his situation, there really is not a strong market inside receivers. I am also intrigued by Victor Cruz's situation, as a young slot receiver. Though Cruz is probably a step above Harvin in terms of production and worthiness of a big contract. |
Well put. I didn't consider it this way entirely before. The trickiness is in the financial uncertainty of the situation. All things considered, I would still break bank for him. I think with a better QB in the near future we will see even more productivity from Harvin - and that is an exciting thought.
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Yfz01
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 8305
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| vikingsrule wrote: | ^ Where did I bring up Dwayne Bowe in this thread. I mentioned Vincent Jackson, simply as a means to get a fair judgement of what a "top 10" WR receives on the free agent market.
However, Bowe has had a lot more success than Harvin with similar or worse QBs. How many 1,000 yard 12+ yds/catch seasons does Harvin have vs Bowe.
Harvin is a high percentage WR simply because half of his passes are caught behind the LOS. Harvin is high % WR but he is also inefficient with those touches since he is averaging under 11 yards a catch. |
I mean in general. You always talk about Bowe for some reason.
Well, Bowe only has two that meet your criteria. Harvin doesn't possess the bulk receiving stats, but if you include his rushing yards he got well over that number in 2010', and likely would have this year as well. This isn't even including his returning ability. Add in a lot more catches for first down, and I think what Harvin did is more impressive. I also think Cassel is (sadly) better than Ponder as a QB.
The third point is obvious. He catches a lot of plays at the LOS and makes things happen. It's a necessity when you have a QB that can't throw down the field. He's done most of this without another legit receiving option.
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Lil Uno
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 5295
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| CriminalMind wrote: | Harvin is #1 as WR/KR/RB combination in the league.
Theres nothing traditional about Percy.
Molding and looking at Receiving Yards at the WR position, ignores the amount of value he brings in other facets of that.
Lets just say ranking the "traditional" positions Percy covers.
Traditional WR - Percy Ranks #16 (or so)
Traditional KR - Percy Ranks #1 (or so)
Traditional RB - Percy Ranks #20-25 (just a guess)
Now pay him a salary for each of these independently and then add them up for a total salary. |
I think the non traditional way we use Harvin is what will make this situation messy. The situation is similar to Wes Welker and the Patriots. While NE knows that Welker is productive for them, he isn't the traditional WR. I'm guessing what has been holding up the contract for 2 years now is that they can't agree on what he is worth as a gadget type player. Harvin will want top money and progress of the contract will be dictated by how much the front office thinks he is worth.
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Eric dunn
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 5054
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Should we consider Armon Binns, who was released by Cinci today?
He started the season as a starter, he couldnt be worse than Jenkins.
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vikingsrule
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 39774
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric dunn wrote: | Should we consider Armon Binns, who was released by Cinci today?
He started the season as a starter, he couldnt be worse than Jenkins. |
Has to be an upgrade over Stephen Burton, why not. |
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Klomp
Joined: 11 Aug 2011
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Location: The Home of Schwan's Ice Cream
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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In a way, I feel like I've seen a double standard around here. People have said for a while that we should trade Adrian because we're just wasting his best years here. Yet, you're not willing to do the same for someone who has voiced his displeasure with the team multiple times and has a pay day coming?!
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vikingsrule
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 39774
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Klomp wrote: | | In a way, I feel like I've seen a double standard around here. People have said for a while that we should trade Adrian because we're just wasting his best years here. Yet, you're not willing to do the same for someone who has voiced his displeasure with the team multiple times and has a pay day coming?! |
It stems from the perception that a RBs prime is short lived whereas a WR can play longer. Harvin realistically has another 7-8 years left, as for Peterson. Conventional wisdom says he probably has 2-3 years left of prime football, but in my opinion, all conventional wisdom must be thrown out the window for Peterson since he is so incredibly unique. |
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