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Oh, mercy...it's Percy!
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
The Harvin, Welker, and Cruz contract situations will all be interesting to watch.


Agreed. Though of the bunch, Cruz should get the biggest contract. He has produced in the slot, on the outside and has put up some incredible numbers. He makes plays all over the field and he is young. Of course playing with Eli Manning inevitably helps.

Cruz should get a bit more than Harvin if we are looking simply at skill set as a receiver. Welker is probably going to see the least of the bunch due to age.

Teams are always weary of paying big money to typical slot receivers, though Cruz has been more than just a slot receiver. He can really do it all, but he has the body of a slot receiver.
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Klomp wrote:
The Harvin, Welker, and Cruz contract situations will all be interesting to watch.


Agreed. Though of the bunch, Cruz should get the biggest contract. He has produced in the slot, on the outside and has put up some incredible numbers. He makes plays all over the field and he is young. Of course playing with Eli Manning inevitably helps.

Cruz should get a bit more than Harvin if we are looking simply at skill set as a receiver. Welker is probably going to see the least of the bunch due to age.

Teams are always weary of paying big money to typical slot receivers, though Cruz has been more than just a slot receiver. He can really do it all, but he has the body of a slot receiver.


I pretty much agree with all of this. But if Cruz gets a big payday first, you can be sure that's about where Harvin will start in negotiations
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is what I am afraid of. Harvin isnt on Cruz's level of a receiver yet. Harvin's skill set is different. I actually think Jarius Wright is closer to Cruz's skill set as a slot receiver than Harvin is. Granted Wright hasnt produced as such, they are very similar players.
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Conquest8089


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joel Segal's clients often carry baggage- difficult locker room personalities that want top dollar for their services. Once given a highly lucrative extension, their effort dissipates and production falls marketably. The goal being to TAKE DOWN the guaranteed portion of the contract ASAP and sign another deal with more GUARANTEED MONEY later. It's a lucrative approach- but it's more of a mindset than strategy.

Unfortunately, a large portion of NFL Players (Not exclusively Segal's clients) give little credence to winning big games or being a good teammate. To these personality types- "Teammate" only existed in Pop Warner.

The Percy Harvin Case:

Selected 22nd Overall (4th WR) in 2009- Harvin was only 20 years old on draft day. After a brief holdout into Training Camp, he signed a 5 Year $ 14.5 Million (8.7 M Guaranteed). Harvin became a dangerous weapon and matchup nightmare for Defenses. After Favre's retirement- Harvin evolved and continued to generate big plays. This was all with a New Offensive System & Coordinator Bill Musgrave, instability at the QB & more attention in the wake of Sidney Rice's departure. Simply Put- Percy Harvin is one of the most gifted players in the league today.

Harvin is 24 Years Old- younger than some rookies and possesses an immaculate onfield resume. 2013 is the final year of his Rookie Contract- and 1.55 Million is all that remains owed.

With the Franchise Tag Rules, Harvin could hypothetically be Franchised for two seasons before being eligible for Free Agency.

2013 (25): 1.55 Million
2014 (26): 10.0 M (Projected FT Figure)
2015 (27): 12.0 M (120% of Projected 2014 FT Figure)

From the Vikings perspective and assuming Harvin's production does not dissipate entirely, 3 Years 23.55 Million does not match Harvin's Open Market Value.

Harvin requested a trade this summer- He's expressed his desire to depart Minnesota. With no parsimonious outcome realized, Harvin has taken a different tract entirely.

After being placed on Injured Reserve December 6th, the team defeated the Bears & Rams to keep their playoff hopes alive. For the first time all year (and since Brett Favre)- the Vikings are becoming a National Story for the play of Adrian Peterson. Fans calling for Organizational Change a few weeks prior are recognizing the Franchise is on track.

You watch the Bears game- the first 5 minutes in particular. Adrian Peterson's success is right behind 4th Overall pick Matt Kalil. 29th overall pick Harrison Smith is a quality starter at SS. 66th Pick CB Josh Robinson gets a Pick-6 off Jay Cutler. 118th- Jarius Wright helps Peterson with a tremendous downfield block. 128th- Rhett Ellision sealed the edge on Peterson's run to the 3 Yardline. And Blair Walsh deserves a Pro Bowl Bid.

Who knows- Maybe Christian Ponder isn't an elite Quarterback in however you define that concept. But the point is the Organizational Plan from the top is working effectively. The players have bought in, the team has leadership and direction.

Percy Harvin may be an elite talent, but he's about Percy and not Houston. You see, Percy envisions this moment as his opportunity to become a major distraction and cancer to the whole season. Largely unanticipated, the Vikings are going to Houston to challenge a tremendous ball club in a meaningful game.

AD gets the accolades and media attention. ESPN Commentators will argue whether he's more like O.J. Simpson or Erick Dickerson- they will not mention Matt Kalil, Charlie Johnson, John Sullivan, Brandon Fusco, Phil Loadholt, or the Defensive Guys. However, the moment Harvin wants to reappear as a distraction- It's a National Story worth covering.

Let's just admit this Reality- Percy Harvin has no interest in remaining in Minnesota.

Legadere Unlimited's Joel Segal has done this before at the same position!

Joel Segal Represented Nate Burleson- the 71st selection in the 2003 Draft. Remember- Burleson was the teams top receiver & was a dangerous Punt Returner.

Burleson was a Restricted Free Agent after 3 seasons. The Vikings could hypothetically match any offer he received.

Burleson signed a 7 Year 49.0 M Deal with Seattle- and two Poison Pills were written in. Namely- All 49.0 M would be guaranteed if Burleson played 5 or more games in Minnesota during any season & a provision that would guarantee all 49.0 M if Burleson was paid more per year than the Running Backs on the roster. This would not be an issue in Seattle, where Shaun Alexander was earning 7.0 M annually.

Segal Won- but the Vikings countered signing OG Steve Hutchinson (CAA) to an identical 7 Year 49.0 M Deal financially- without the grandiose gimmicks. In hindsight it's comical, the Vikings got a Guard that might go to Canton as a Viking & Burleson lost his job to Bobby Engram.

Segal also negotiated Randy Moss' departure via trade. Wide Receivers always want to leave Minnesota- Burleson, Moss, Sidney Rice and now Harvin. With holes at the position, the only starting caliber FA signed in recent years was Bernard Berrien who was significantly overpaid (6 Years 42.0 M- 16.0 M Guaranteed).

Bottom Line:

Let's stop thinking about this like Madden 2013 and put Percy Harvin's specific circumstances into context.

Percy Harvin does not want to earn 23.55 over the next 3 Years. He wants a mega-deal. The deal will be largest in the early stages of his career- and if he's productive- he could end up like Larry Fitzgerald- a guy that negotiated 3 separate deals prior to his 28th Birthday. The last of which was 8 Years 120.0 Million (50 M Guaranteed).

Harvin will not return in 2013 to earn 1.55 Million as a good soldier, the playbook is so obvious- he'll assuredly be Franchised in 2014 & possibly 2015. Remember Santonio Holmes departure from Pittsburgh? That was Segal's work and it netted them a mere 5th Round Pick. Segal did the same to the Vikings with the aforementioned Burleson, as well as Randy Moss. The guy is a pariah.

The more Harvin speaks out of turn, the less value he'll return in a trade. At this point- he's worth a Late 1st Round Pick and possibly more. Hypothetically, he will be traded to a team that is willing to give him an extension. So while contractually the Vikings could keep him, he'll make sure they pay dearly. He will commit himself to becoming enough of a cancer that his subpar play doesn't merit keeping him. And at that point, he will not return much in a Trade. More over, he will be a horrible example for the young WRs on the roster.

Let's say Hypothetically- Minnesota trades Harvin for a pick between 20-30 in the 2013 Draft & 5th Round Selection in 2014. The deal would be contingent on Harvin signing an extension (Jared Allen). Framework Below (Projected, ofcourse)

4 Years 47,850,000 (33,000,000 M Guaranteed)- Retains 1,550,000 of Old Money- Not Part of 2013 Cap Figure

2013: Base Salary- 8,500,000 (8,500,000 Guaranteed)- No Workout Bonus
2014: Base Salary- 10,500,000 (10,500,000 Guaranteed)- 250,000 Workout Bonus
2015: Base Salary- 13,000,000 (10,0000,000 Guaranteed)- 250,000 Workout Bonus
2016: Base Salary- 15,100,000 (4,000,000 Guaranteed)- 250,000 Workout Bonus

Additional 200,000 in Bonuses Available Annually.

Harvin's Agent will put together a deal similar to Larry Fitzgerald's (less ofcourse)- thereby allowing the team to reduce early Cap Figures. The Team will likely Cut Harvin prior to 2016- thereby saving 11,100,000 of Cap Space (4,000,000 of Dead Money). If he's a major piece to the puzzle, another extension could be signed or he'll be an UFA at 27 or 28.

Cashing in during Free Agency Twice! The experts on this advanced topic are Gibril Wilson (Joel Segal Client), DeAngelo Hall (Joel Segal Client) & Michael Vick (Joel Segal Client). Their current understudies (Big Extensions to Immediately watch play regress) are RB Reggie Bush (Joel Segal Client), Chris Johnson (joel Segal Client), Santonio Holmes (Joel Segal Client), Levi Brown (Joel Segal Client)- Advanced Placement.

The portion of the CBA permitting teams to Franchise Designate Players Twice is detested. With rookie deals lowered to 4 Years, players will get to FA earlier. It doesn't much matter if you get there though, to cash in you've got to be an Elite Player. Special Note- The deal Harvin wants is virtually identical to the one Revis signed with the Jets. The Jets handed Revis 45.0 M in 2010 and signed an agreement not to utilize the Franchise Tag on the CB following 2013. Schwartz & Feinsod had the experience of Vincent Jackson in San Diego- and wanted to assure Revis got paid and made it to Free Agency at 29.

Adrian "AD" Peterson is considered such a good guy as evidenced by that SI Issue. To what extent does his $ 100 Million extension differentiate him from Harvin. His family is protected, he's got enough money to live the rest of his life & he's the Face of the Franchise.

Other guys have been extended also- but not above market rates. C John Sullivan 5 Years 25.0 M (10.0 M Guaranteed), LB Chad Greenway 5 Years 41.0 M (19.0 M Guaranteed). The Vikings believed they could control Harvin for 2013 at 1.55 M & 2014 on the Franchise Tag. That's their ideal outcome. But Harvin has begun his anti-Franchise Tag Campaign Early.
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ArcticNorseman


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conquest . . . that's one heck of a post. Frankly, I agree with your position regarding elite players using agents (and vice versa) to play the organization.

In the case of Randy Moss, Dante DiTrapano was Moss' agent when Moss was traded to the Vikes and then again to the Pats (I think). Segal is his agent now . . . and just like Rosenhaus' clients, I might typically shy away from the player just because the agent is a pain -- if I were calling the shots ------ OR, I would make sure the agent and player understand who's signing the checks! In my case, it'd be the latter, and the contract language would allow me to whip the agent if the player gets out of line.

Bottomline regarding Percy: The Vikings proved he ain't the end-all answer. They found other ways to win, and they will win the future, with or without him.

That said, I totally understand Percy's position, in that he's proven to be a dynamic and rare talent. If the Vikings offer him a straight-up, fair deal, he should be happy with $25-30 million guaranteed with remaining a Viking for the next 7 years. I don't believe, if he's a true competitor, that he'd slack off on the field . . . ala Randy Moss.
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wiscbearsfan


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what's the scoop on Harvin? I just read through the epic post from conquest and I think I have a decent idea of what the situation is.

Harvin just wants to get paid and wants it to be somewhere other than MIN? Is that the deal or is there more to it?

People were discussing Harvin in the Bears forum and the term "headcase" keeps getting thrown around but I don't think that's fair. Am I missing something?

Also, the migraine thing is all in the past, right? Nothing recently just the ankle injury right?
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiscbearsfan wrote:
So what's the scoop on Harvin? I just read through the epic post from conquest and I think I have a decent idea of what the situation is.

Harvin just wants to get paid and wants it to be somewhere other than MIN? Is that the deal or is there more to it?

no one, or at least none of us, really know. the two sides have been very, very quiet.

anyone who says they "know" what is going to happen or can "guarantee" it, is just making noise.



wiscbearsfan wrote:
People were discussing Harvin in the Bears forum and the term "headcase" keeps getting thrown around but I don't think that's fair. Am I missing something?

it definitely takes a lot of patience to keep up with Harvin.



wiscbearsfan wrote:
Also, the migraine thing is all in the past, right? Nothing recently just the ankle injury right?

no migraines for almost two years. no games missed because of them.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiscbearsfan wrote:
So what's the scoop on Harvin? I just read through the epic post from conquest and I think I have a decent idea of what the situation is.

Harvin just wants to get paid and wants it to be somewhere other than MIN? Is that the deal or is there more to it?

People were discussing Harvin in the Bears forum and the term "headcase" keeps getting thrown around but I don't think that's fair. Am I missing something?

Also, the migraine thing is all in the past, right? Nothing recently just the ankle injury right?


We really dont know what the real scoop is. Nothing has been said by either side. What we do know is that Harvin went to the public and said he was unhappy. What has lead to his happiness, who knows. Some speculated it was use within the offense, Harvin wanted to see the field more as in previous seasons being a player who would see the field around 60% of the time. Others speculated that it has been salary issues and that seems to be picking up steam as of late. How happy is Harvin really in MN? Who knows, its anyone's guess. Would he be happy with money, I guess I am not sure I would want to pay him and find out.

I wouldnt call Harvin a headcase, he isnt like Brandon Marshall in his earlier days. Its been speculated that Harvin isnt a particularly strong leader or big locker room type guy, and has struggled with authority. Harvin had issues with coaches in Florida, he had arguments with Childress and was reported to have a heated exchange with Frazier when placed on IR. Is it motivated by money? Harvin is less likely to not get that big money deal if he finishes the season on IR. Do the Vikings care? Could Harvin have played, who knows. Apparently, the Vikings felt he couldnt even though the injury really didnt seem like a seaosn ender. I believe Harvin could have played in the playoffs if the Vikings wanted him to be available. They shut him down.

As for the health concerns. The migraines are a thing of the past, mostly. He suffers from sleep apnea, which seems to have been cured (it was discovered in 2010). Harvin's ankle isnt an issue right now. He passed his exit physical and has been cleared to practice during the offseason, if he even shows up.

I expect the Vikings to trade Harvin. I suspect the organization has had enough, and will look to extract as much value as they can. With Harvin, the sooner the better for everything.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome. Thanks guys.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Its been speculated that Harvin isnt a particularly strong leader or big locker room type guy, and has struggled with authority. Harvin had issues with coaches in Florida, he had arguments with Childress and was reported to have a heated exchange with Frazier when placed on IR.

to me, this is a very salient point. because Childress and Frazier are about as different as two coaches can be. Childress was a mind controller and uber authoritarian who would demonstrate his power (which led to his downfall), while Frazier is cool and calm and earns the players' respect.

if Harvin has issues with two coaches on the opposite ends of the spectrum, can he get along with any coach in between?
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Kellerman


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Btw, it's not rumoured that Havin and Frazier had their dust-ups, we actually got to see one on live television this season.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite the reported sour relationship, Percy Harvin told USA Today he could have continued playing for Vikings coach Leslie Frazier had he not been traded. Harvin said he and Frazier have talked since the trade and exchanged text messages within the last month about Harvin's impending fatherhood.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000210734/article/percy-harvin-moving-on-from-minnesota-vikings-drama


maybe becoming a father will allow Percy to order his priorities better and mature, it certainly had a big impact on Jared Allen. Winfield, who has always been regarded as a very mature man and teammate, had a child while still in college.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
Despite the reported sour relationship, Percy Harvin told USA Today he could have continued playing for Vikings coach Leslie Frazier had he not been traded. Harvin said he and Frazier have talked since the trade and exchanged text messages within the last month about Harvin's impending fatherhood.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000210734/article/percy-harvin-moving-on-from-minnesota-vikings-drama


maybe becoming a father will allow Percy to order his priorities better and mature, it certainly had a big impact on Jared Allen. Winfield, who has always been regarded as a very mature man and teammate, had a child while still in college.


We don't know what the real story was with Percy. The fact that Adrian Peterson seemed to be in Percy's corner and was not at all happy about him being traded makes me suspect that he wasn't a total cancer.

Also, Darrell Bevell was the Vikings OC under Childress and is now the OC at Seattle. The Seahawks knew exactly what they were getting with Percy and they still traded all those draft choices to get him and they committed to paying him $25 million in guaranteed money.

I still think that the Vikings are going to have a tough time replacing Percy's production on the field. 551 of Harvin's 667 receiving yards last year were in the form of YAC. Put another way, that's only 126 air yards in 62 receptions. All of which means that Percy provided a ton of yardage on ridiculously easy sub-5-yard passes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Percy is in for a monster season with SEA.
Whatever the reason, he is not here.
He was worth the 1st+, and he will be worth that investment to SEA.

I expect the Wildcard teams to be coming out of the NFC North & West
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
Percy is in for a monster season with SEA.
Whatever the reason, he is not here.
He was worth the 1st+, and he will be worth that investment to SEA.

I expect the Wildcard teams to be coming out of the NFC North & West


Dude is going to do work with fantasy numbers.
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