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The Curtain


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard to buy that it's just the scheme. When you look at play-making talent, where is it on that defense? Troy Polamalu is the only guy in the secondary that comes to mind. James Harrison is the only guy up front. Neither of them are currently playing. Nobody else has stepped it up and started making the game changing plays. That's scheme? That defense hasn't played with much intensity this season, especially against the run. Part of it's probably due to Hampton being done.

Lots of these guys have been given chances, none of them have done anything to show that they're capable of carrying this D for the next few years. Though I would give someone like Cam Heyward a pass, since he's still in the developmental stages. I still don't get why Ziggy Hood doesn't see more snaps, at least to show how well he can handle it over a larger sample size.

I'd see how they play with Troy/Harrison back, because that is a big difference. In time's past, it hasn't been, which makes this sort of scary, but it's not like their D was humiliated against Oakland. Aside from giving up that big TD run, it wasn't THAT bad. I'd chalk it up to more fluky play from Oakland than bad play from Pittsburgh. Play them again and we'd probably beat their brains in, the way it should of been.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Curtain wrote:
It's hard to buy that it's just the scheme. When you look at play-making talent, where is it on that defense? Troy Polamalu is the only guy in the secondary that comes to mind. James Harrison is the only guy up front. Neither of them are currently playing. Nobody else has stepped it up and started making the game changing plays. That's scheme? That defense hasn't played with much intensity this season, especially against the run. Part of it's probably due to Hampton being done.

Lots of these guys have been given chances, none of them have done anything to show that they're capable of carrying this D for the next few years. Though I would give someone like Cam Heyward a pass, since he's still in the developmental stages. I still don't get why Ziggy Hood doesn't see more snaps, at least to show how well he can handle it over a larger sample size.

I'd see how they play with Troy/Harrison back, because that is a big difference. In time's past, it hasn't been, which makes this sort of scary, but it's not like their D was humiliated against Oakland. Aside from giving up that big TD run, it wasn't THAT bad. I'd chalk it up to more fluky play from Oakland than bad play from Pittsburgh. Play them again and we'd probably beat their brains in, the way it should of been.


I dont think anyone is saying its JUST the scheme. Just that its a major part.

Guys like Ziggy and Cam arent built to play like Aaron Smith and Keisel.....yet LeBeau is playing them like they are. Im not saying Ziggy would be a world beater either way, but LeBeau is seriously holding him back by leashing him and making him play a style that doesnt highlight his best attributes.

And actually, we got our butts kicked by Bruce Gradkowski a few years back when Troy was out....we have struggle several timees without Troy, so not sure how you can say it wasnt a big difference before.

Also not sure how you can say it wasnt that bad aside from one run. Our defense couldnt stop Palmer or the Raiders at all in the 2nd half...much like we couldnt stop Peyton Manning in week one.

Like I said in the other thread....Troy and Harrison coming back will help. Most of the issues will still be there, though. I expect our pass rush to improve and I expect

Here's a question for someone...anyone....is McClendon injured? Because they talked him up all preseason about how good he looked, and then they just handed the job back to Snack, who looks fat, old and slow.

Sometimes the decision making on this team downright baffles me.
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armsteeld


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly it is almost laughable hearing people saying if we draft low enough that we will get better playmakers. I completely disagree. It is how you scout, how you draft, and sometimes are you willing to draft a potential high risk "character" player. With where we have been drafting, we have plenty of talent to choose from but chose system guys instead.

I would love the ability to disrupt the passing game with 43 scheme but you still need playmakers or passrushers and we lack those IMHO.
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armsteeld


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
The Curtain wrote:
It's hard to buy that it's just the scheme. When you look at play-making talent, where is it on that defense? Troy Polamalu is the only guy in the secondary that comes to mind. James Harrison is the only guy up front. Neither of them are currently playing. Nobody else has stepped it up and started making the game changing plays. That's scheme? That defense hasn't played with much intensity this season, especially against the run. Part of it's probably due to Hampton being done.

Lots of these guys have been given chances, none of them have done anything to show that they're capable of carrying this D for the next few years. Though I would give someone like Cam Heyward a pass, since he's still in the developmental stages. I still don't get why Ziggy Hood doesn't see more snaps, at least to show how well he can handle it over a larger sample size.

I'd see how they play with Troy/Harrison back, because that is a big difference. In time's past, it hasn't been, which makes this sort of scary, but it's not like their D was humiliated against Oakland. Aside from giving up that big TD run, it wasn't THAT bad. I'd chalk it up to more fluky play from Oakland than bad play from Pittsburgh. Play them again and we'd probably beat their brains in, the way it should of been.


I dont think anyone is saying its JUST the scheme. Just that its a major part.

Guys like Ziggy and Cam arent built to play like Aaron Smith and Keisel.....yet LeBeau is playing them like they are. Im not saying Ziggy would be a world beater either way, but LeBeau is seriously holding him back by leashing him and making him play a style that doesnt highlight his best attributes.

And actually, we got our butts kicked by Bruce Gradkowski a few years back when Troy was out....we have struggle several timees without Troy, so not sure how you can say it wasnt a big difference before.

Also not sure how you can say it wasnt that bad aside from one run. Our defense couldnt stop Palmer or the Raiders at all in the 2nd half...much like we couldnt stop Peyton Manning in week one.

Like I said in the other thread....Troy and Harrison coming back will help. Most of the issues will still be there, though. I expect our pass rush to improve and I expect

Here's a question for someone...anyone....is McClendon injured? Because they talked him up all preseason about how good he looked, and then they just handed the job back to Snack, who looks fat, old and slow.

Sometimes the decision making on this team downright baffles me.


Our defense doesn't play inspired except for Taylor, Foote, and Clark. The other guys are just on the field. I love seeing passion on defense not just in celebrations but how they attack the LOS and defend against the pass. Do our ILBs know that they can destroy WRs/TEs within 5 yards to eliminate those easy [inappropriate/removed] slants and cross patterns? Maybe they should play with the desire that our WRs play with.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
The Curtain wrote:
It's hard to buy that it's just the scheme. When you look at play-making talent, where is it on that defense? Troy Polamalu is the only guy in the secondary that comes to mind. James Harrison is the only guy up front. Neither of them are currently playing. Nobody else has stepped it up and started making the game changing plays. That's scheme? That defense hasn't played with much intensity this season, especially against the run. Part of it's probably due to Hampton being done.

Lots of these guys have been given chances, none of them have done anything to show that they're capable of carrying this D for the next few years. Though I would give someone like Cam Heyward a pass, since he's still in the developmental stages. I still don't get why Ziggy Hood doesn't see more snaps, at least to show how well he can handle it over a larger sample size.

I'd see how they play with Troy/Harrison back, because that is a big difference. In time's past, it hasn't been, which makes this sort of scary, but it's not like their D was humiliated against Oakland. Aside from giving up that big TD run, it wasn't THAT bad. I'd chalk it up to more fluky play from Oakland than bad play from Pittsburgh. Play them again and we'd probably beat their brains in, the way it should of been.


I dont think anyone is saying its JUST the scheme. Just that its a major part.

Guys like Ziggy and Cam arent built to play like Aaron Smith and Keisel.....yet LeBeau is playing them like they are. Im not saying Ziggy would be a world beater either way, but LeBeau is seriously holding him back by leashing him and making him play a style that doesnt highlight his best attributes.

And actually, we got our butts kicked by Bruce Gradkowski a few years back when Troy was out....we have struggle several timees without Troy, so not sure how you can say it wasnt a big difference before.

Also not sure how you can say it wasnt that bad aside from one run. Our defense couldnt stop Palmer or the Raiders at all in the 2nd half...much like we couldnt stop Peyton Manning in week one.

Like I said in the other thread....Troy and Harrison coming back will help. Most of the issues will still be there, though. I expect our pass rush to improve and I expect

Here's a question for someone...anyone....is McClendon injured? Because they talked him up all preseason about how good he looked, and then they just handed the job back to Snack, who looks fat, old and slow.

Sometimes the decision making on this team downright baffles me.


Our defense doesn't play inspired except for Taylor, Foote, and Clark. The other guys are just on the field. I love seeing passion on defense not just in celebrations but how they attack the LOS and defend against the pass. Do our ILBs know that they can destroy WRs/TEs within 5 yards to eliminate those easy [inappropriate/removed] slants and cross patterns? Maybe they should play with the desire that our WRs play with.


To a degree, I understand what you mean, but I dont necessarily agree.

In some cases, yes.

In some cases, I think certain players just arent playing well, but that doesnt mean they arent playing "inspired".

Aside from the first game, Woodley played hard the last two games. He was getting consistent pressure. He was held several tiems vs Oakland that wasnt called.

Timmons also seems to be playing hard, but as mentioned, simply looks too slow with the added weight.

Ike Taylor plays with passion most of the time, but his head is what concerns me. You can play with fire and play stupid at the same time, which is what he does too often.

I think getting Troy and Harrison back will bring back some of the swagger, but in general, it seems as if several players just arent playing well...not so much that they arent playing hard.
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treat88


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
Honestly it is almost laughable hearing people saying if we draft low enough that we will get better playmakers. I completely disagree. It is how you scout, how you draft, and sometimes are you willing to draft a potential high risk "character" player. With where we have been drafting, we have plenty of talent to choose from but chose system guys instead.

I would love the ability to disrupt the passing game with 43 scheme but you still need playmakers or passrushers and we lack those IMHO.


I don't know about the first part of this at all man.

The lower the number next to the draft pick, the higher the probability that you get an impact player. That's just a fact.

Consistently drafting mid 20's and lower certainly makes it less probable we end up with difference making talents.

I could very well be wrong, but I think this team is one big time DE away from being able to transition to a very talented 43 base system.

It will be interesting if LeBeau hangs it up this off season.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
Honestly it is almost laughable hearing people saying if we draft low enough that we will get better playmakers. I completely disagree. It is how you scout, how you draft, and sometimes are you willing to draft a potential high risk "character" player. With where we have been drafting, we have plenty of talent to choose from but chose system guys instead.

I would love the ability to disrupt the passing game with 43 scheme but you still need playmakers or passrushers and we lack those IMHO.


I don't know about the first part of this at all man.

The lower the number next to the draft pick, the higher the probability that you get an impact player. That's just a fact.

Consistently drafting mid 20's and lower certainly makes it less probable we end up with difference making talents.

I could very well be wrong, but I think this team is one big time DE away from being able to transition to a very talented 43 base system.

It will be interesting if LeBeau hangs it up this off season.


What will be even more interesting is to see who takes over the defense.

Even more interesting than that will be, if it's Keith Butler, will he trying running the defense exactly like LeBeau?
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treat88


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
Honestly it is almost laughable hearing people saying if we draft low enough that we will get better playmakers. I completely disagree. It is how you scout, how you draft, and sometimes are you willing to draft a potential high risk "character" player. With where we have been drafting, we have plenty of talent to choose from but chose system guys instead.

I would love the ability to disrupt the passing game with 43 scheme but you still need playmakers or passrushers and we lack those IMHO.


I don't know about the first part of this at all man.

The lower the number next to the draft pick, the higher the probability that you get an impact player. That's just a fact.

Consistently drafting mid 20's and lower certainly makes it less probable we end up with difference making talents.

I could very well be wrong, but I think this team is one big time DE away from being able to transition to a very talented 43 base system.

It will be interesting if LeBeau hangs it up this off season.


What will be even more interesting is to see who takes over the defense.

Even more interesting than that will be, if it's Keith Butler, will he trying running the defense exactly like LeBeau?


Yep. Been rooting for Butler to take over for a couple of years now and he certainly has to be considered the odds on favorite. Almost a shoo in? Probably IMO.

He's worked with LeBeau long enough now tho that I do worry the philosophy is ingrained to the point it can't be changed. I have nothing to base that on other than the length of his tenure here, so I certainly would be optimistic at the start of a switch.

Blech...too early to start fretting over these things yet. Man that Raider loss left a bad taste.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
Honestly it is almost laughable hearing people saying if we draft low enough that we will get better playmakers. I completely disagree. It is how you scout, how you draft, and sometimes are you willing to draft a potential high risk "character" player. With where we have been drafting, we have plenty of talent to choose from but chose system guys instead.

I would love the ability to disrupt the passing game with 43 scheme but you still need playmakers or passrushers and we lack those IMHO.


I don't know about the first part of this at all man.

The lower the number next to the draft pick, the higher the probability that you get an impact player. That's just a fact.

Consistently drafting mid 20's and lower certainly makes it less probable we end up with difference making talents.

I could very well be wrong, but I think this team is one big time DE away from being able to transition to a very talented 43 base system.

It will be interesting if LeBeau hangs it up this off season.


What will be even more interesting is to see who takes over the defense.

Even more interesting than that will be, if it's Keith Butler, will he trying running the defense exactly like LeBeau?


Yep. Been rooting for Butler to take over for a couple of years now and he certainly has to be considered the odds on favorite. Almost a shoo in? Probably IMO.

He's worked with LeBeau long enough now tho that I do worry the philosophy is ingrained to the point it can't be changed. I have nothing to base that on other than the length of his tenure here, so I certainly would be optimistic at the start of a switch.

Blech...too early to start fretting over these things yet. Man that Raider loss left a bad taste.


Agreed with everything.

But even before we started slipping, I said I hoped that Butler would have his own vision and not simply trying to emulate LeBeau in terms of scheme, because thats a recipe for failure. Not that he cant take alot from what he has learned, but I dont want a someone who just wants to try to copy everything.

Here's to hoping Butler can be his own man and step out from behind LeBeau, as opposed to merely riding his coattails.
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superbelt


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
The Curtain wrote:
It's hard to buy that it's just the scheme. When you look at play-making talent, where is it on that defense? Troy Polamalu is the only guy in the secondary that comes to mind. James Harrison is the only guy up front. Neither of them are currently playing. Nobody else has stepped it up and started making the game changing plays. That's scheme? That defense hasn't played with much intensity this season, especially against the run. Part of it's probably due to Hampton being done.

Lots of these guys have been given chances, none of them have done anything to show that they're capable of carrying this D for the next few years. Though I would give someone like Cam Heyward a pass, since he's still in the developmental stages. I still don't get why Ziggy Hood doesn't see more snaps, at least to show how well he can handle it over a larger sample size.

I'd see how they play with Troy/Harrison back, because that is a big difference. In time's past, it hasn't been, which makes this sort of scary, but it's not like their D was humiliated against Oakland. Aside from giving up that big TD run, it wasn't THAT bad. I'd chalk it up to more fluky play from Oakland than bad play from Pittsburgh. Play them again and we'd probably beat their brains in, the way it should of been.


I dont think anyone is saying its JUST the scheme. Just that its a major part.

Guys like Ziggy and Cam arent built to play like Aaron Smith and Keisel.....yet LeBeau is playing them like they are. Im not saying Ziggy would be a world beater either way, but LeBeau is seriously holding him back by leashing him and making him play a style that doesnt highlight his best attributes.

And actually, we got our butts kicked by Bruce Gradkowski a few years back when Troy was out....we have struggle several timees without Troy, so not sure how you can say it wasnt a big difference before.

Also not sure how you can say it wasnt that bad aside from one run. Our defense couldnt stop Palmer or the Raiders at all in the 2nd half...much like we couldnt stop Peyton Manning in week one.

Like I said in the other thread....Troy and Harrison coming back will help. Most of the issues will still be there, though. I expect our pass rush to improve and I expect

Here's a question for someone...anyone....is McClendon injured? Because they talked him up all preseason about how good he looked, and then they just handed the job back to Snack, who looks fat, old and slow.

Sometimes the decision making on this team downright baffles me.
Agree with all of that. Our DL are being asked to do things they aren't built to do. They are being handicapped from using their best talents.

Don't get too hopeful about Harrison getting back. He left early today in street clothes. Talk of microfracture surgery. He may be a dead man walking already. He surely won't be back next year.
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The Curtain


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
The Curtain wrote:
It's hard to buy that it's just the scheme. When you look at play-making talent, where is it on that defense? Troy Polamalu is the only guy in the secondary that comes to mind. James Harrison is the only guy up front. Neither of them are currently playing. Nobody else has stepped it up and started making the game changing plays. That's scheme? That defense hasn't played with much intensity this season, especially against the run. Part of it's probably due to Hampton being done.

Lots of these guys have been given chances, none of them have done anything to show that they're capable of carrying this D for the next few years. Though I would give someone like Cam Heyward a pass, since he's still in the developmental stages. I still don't get why Ziggy Hood doesn't see more snaps, at least to show how well he can handle it over a larger sample size.

I'd see how they play with Troy/Harrison back, because that is a big difference. In time's past, it hasn't been, which makes this sort of scary, but it's not like their D was humiliated against Oakland. Aside from giving up that big TD run, it wasn't THAT bad. I'd chalk it up to more fluky play from Oakland than bad play from Pittsburgh. Play them again and we'd probably beat their brains in, the way it should of been.


I dont think anyone is saying its JUST the scheme. Just that its a major part.

Guys like Ziggy and Cam arent built to play like Aaron Smith and Keisel.....yet LeBeau is playing them like they are. Im not saying Ziggy would be a world beater either way, but LeBeau is seriously holding him back by leashing him and making him play a style that doesnt highlight his best attributes.

And actually, we got our butts kicked by Bruce Gradkowski a few years back when Troy was out....we have struggle several timees without Troy, so not sure how you can say it wasnt a big difference before.

Also not sure how you can say it wasnt that bad aside from one run. Our defense couldnt stop Palmer or the Raiders at all in the 2nd half...much like we couldnt stop Peyton Manning in week one.

Like I said in the other thread....Troy and Harrison coming back will help. Most of the issues will still be there, though. I expect our pass rush to improve and I expect

Here's a question for someone...anyone....is McClendon injured? Because they talked him up all preseason about how good he looked, and then they just handed the job back to Snack, who looks fat, old and slow.

Sometimes the decision making on this team downright baffles me.


I didn't mean Troy specifically, but losing key guys to injury has never been a major blow to the Steelers. They shouldn't be dropping games to Oakland because of it. For some reason, we just blow games to inferior Oakland teams. This happens every couple years.

Palmer was at like 33 yards passing at half time. That's a pretty strong defensive performance. DMac's run was the only thing that had them remotely in the game. Do I agree that they looked foolish being unable to stop a QB as awful as Carson Palmer in the second half? Yes. But it wasn't like they were absolutely torched all game. They held their own, and Oakland was given every break humanly possibly to keep them in that game.

The Denver game they were simply outplayed, and that was concerning, though it was only the first game of the season. The Oakland game? I think it was just one of those games you have to chalk up to bad luck as much as poor performance on the defensive side. The Brown fumble is what truly blew it.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Curtain wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
The Curtain wrote:
It's hard to buy that it's just the scheme. When you look at play-making talent, where is it on that defense? Troy Polamalu is the only guy in the secondary that comes to mind. James Harrison is the only guy up front. Neither of them are currently playing. Nobody else has stepped it up and started making the game changing plays. That's scheme? That defense hasn't played with much intensity this season, especially against the run. Part of it's probably due to Hampton being done.

Lots of these guys have been given chances, none of them have done anything to show that they're capable of carrying this D for the next few years. Though I would give someone like Cam Heyward a pass, since he's still in the developmental stages. I still don't get why Ziggy Hood doesn't see more snaps, at least to show how well he can handle it over a larger sample size.

I'd see how they play with Troy/Harrison back, because that is a big difference. In time's past, it hasn't been, which makes this sort of scary, but it's not like their D was humiliated against Oakland. Aside from giving up that big TD run, it wasn't THAT bad. I'd chalk it up to more fluky play from Oakland than bad play from Pittsburgh. Play them again and we'd probably beat their brains in, the way it should of been.


I dont think anyone is saying its JUST the scheme. Just that its a major part.

Guys like Ziggy and Cam arent built to play like Aaron Smith and Keisel.....yet LeBeau is playing them like they are. Im not saying Ziggy would be a world beater either way, but LeBeau is seriously holding him back by leashing him and making him play a style that doesnt highlight his best attributes.

And actually, we got our butts kicked by Bruce Gradkowski a few years back when Troy was out....we have struggle several timees without Troy, so not sure how you can say it wasnt a big difference before.

Also not sure how you can say it wasnt that bad aside from one run. Our defense couldnt stop Palmer or the Raiders at all in the 2nd half...much like we couldnt stop Peyton Manning in week one.

Like I said in the other thread....Troy and Harrison coming back will help. Most of the issues will still be there, though. I expect our pass rush to improve and I expect

Here's a question for someone...anyone....is McClendon injured? Because they talked him up all preseason about how good he looked, and then they just handed the job back to Snack, who looks fat, old and slow.

Sometimes the decision making on this team downright baffles me.


I didn't mean Troy specifically, but losing key guys to injury has never been a major blow to the Steelers. They shouldn't be dropping games to Oakland because of it. For some reason, we just blow games to inferior Oakland teams. This happens every couple years.

Palmer was at like 33 yards passing at half time. That's a pretty strong defensive performance. DMac's run was the only thing that had them remotely in the game. Do I agree that they looked foolish being unable to stop a QB as awful as Carson Palmer in the second half? Yes. But it wasn't like they were absolutely torched all game. They held their own, and Oakland was given every break humanly possibly to keep them in that game.

The Denver game they were simply outplayed, and that was concerning, though it was only the first game of the season. The Oakland game? I think it was just one of those games you have to chalk up to bad luck as much as poor performance on the defensive side. The Brown fumble is what truly blew it.


Thats why I said in the 2nd half, we couldnt stop him. if you were just speaking of the first half, I agree. Overall though, it was much worse than just one run.

First half we controlled the clock. The reason Palmer didnt have that many yards was because they had some good returns and runs on us.

2nd half....we couldnt stop them. Just like Denver. Methodical dismantling of a defense that teams seem all too familiar with at this point. Factor that with missing Troy and Deebo....recipe for disaster.
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ShooterMcGavin


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone know how many snaps McLendon has received compred to Big Snack? I swear Hampton has taken far too many snaps.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShooterMcGavin wrote:
Anyone know how many snaps McLendon has received compred to Big Snack? I swear Hampton has taken far too many snaps.


after seeing snack get skated out of the way on that run, I was disappointed in snack and the coaches for keeping him in there as much as they did. Can't believe that play happened to go by snack and IIRC he was fresh so stamina wasn't a factor. To see anyone run NEAR snack is not normal at all, something we might have to accept though. Timmons play doesn't help either Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/09/25/refo-steelers-raiders-week-3/
The guys at PFF thought Timmons had a good game. I wasn't focusing too much on him but when I did, he looked pretty mediocre. I must have missed something.
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