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Would you trade Carpenter for a box of Girl Scout Cookies?
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xXxHOUSEDxXx


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FinsWin wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Who cares? Our team sucks anyways. I'd rather have a high draft pick than a victory that is essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things. We should have sucked for Luck last year and we should suck for a good player this year. Keep up the good work, Carpenter.


Another season of this garbage? When do you want us to win games? Never?


I want us to start winning when we have talent on the roster and have a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. I'm not selfish and don't need any morale victories to give me satisfaction. A six or seven win season does nothing for me other than cause frustration come draft day when we're picking behind teams we're more talent-deprived than. I only want what is in the best long-term interest of this franchise, which just happens to be losing.
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Deadeye


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Deadeye wrote:
- Carpenter missed two long filed goals. Those are never guaranteed, and I'm miffed that we "settled" for a 47 yarder. We needed another ten to fifteen yards to help our kicker. Question, how many of our kickoffs got returned?

- Tannehill threw a pick six. Rookie mistake? Maybe, but it cost us seven points while Carpenter cost us six points.

- Reggie Bush was very effective until he got hurt. We do need to resign him. Daniel Thomas looks overmatched to me. He doesn't do anything great, and combining that with the turnovers makes it hard to justify keeping him around. I think we need to draft another power runner next year and let Thomas walk.

- How many times did we get our hands on Sanchez only to let him get away. Our pass rush (or lack thereof) is a huge weakness we need to address. Frustrating.

- The running game looked good until Bush got injured. Considering how ineffective our passing game is, it's remarkable that we can run the football the way we do. I love it.

- Again, our receivers are weak. Armstrong dropped a perfectly placed ball when we badly needed a first down deep in our territory. We need to draft two more pass catchers next year. This offense needs some weapons BADLY.

- I'm adjusting my expectation from 3 wins to 5 wins. We still stink and have a long way to go. But right now the team is not worthless. We run the ball well, and stuff the run very well. That's a start.



I don't think that the OP was saying Carpenter was the only reason we lost.
Yeah, I started venting and I just couldn't stop. Laughing
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ZenZuki


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread = Knee-jerk much?

There's enough blame to go around!

Sheesh!
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadeye wrote:
phinmun wrote:
Deadeye wrote:
- Carpenter missed two long filed goals. Those are never guaranteed, and I'm miffed that we "settled" for a 47 yarder. We needed another ten to fifteen yards to help our kicker. Question, how many of our kickoffs got returned?

- Tannehill threw a pick six. Rookie mistake? Maybe, but it cost us seven points while Carpenter cost us six points.

- Reggie Bush was very effective until he got hurt. We do need to resign him. Daniel Thomas looks overmatched to me. He doesn't do anything great, and combining that with the turnovers makes it hard to justify keeping him around. I think we need to draft another power runner next year and let Thomas walk.

- How many times did we get our hands on Sanchez only to let him get away. Our pass rush (or lack thereof) is a huge weakness we need to address. Frustrating.

- The running game looked good until Bush got injured. Considering how ineffective our passing game is, it's remarkable that we can run the football the way we do. I love it.

- Again, our receivers are weak. Armstrong dropped a perfectly placed ball when we badly needed a first down deep in our territory. We need to draft two more pass catchers next year. This offense needs some weapons BADLY.

- I'm adjusting my expectation from 3 wins to 5 wins. We still stink and have a long way to go. But right now the team is not worthless. We run the ball well, and stuff the run very well. That's a start.



I don't think that the OP was saying Carpenter was the only reason we lost.
Yeah, I started venting and I just couldn't stop. Laughing



This game was a real shocker. I won't lie. It was amazing that we even had a chance to win this at all. If you told me before-hand that it'd be a close game that went into over-time I'd say, 'wow, the Dolphins must actually be playing well.'

The fact that we played poorly on defense, poorly on offense, poorly on special teams, had penalties that cost us in all 3 phases and at every position seemed to make big mistakes that helped lose us the game...I don't know what to say other than, wow, when we play well, we'll be pretty impressive I guess.

We probably played as poor a game as we'll play this season in terms of shooting ourselves in the foot but yet we still took the Jets into overtime and really did enough to win.

They lost Revis but we lost Bush so it's sort shows me a lot as to how competitive we actually have the potential to be in a sense. I'm amazed at how bad we were across the board though. Every position seemed to help lose this game for us.
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fishfan4life


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont really like or dislike carpenter it is what it is. As for the raiders taking sebastion in the 1st round oh how it was luaghed at the time but now it might have been a steal. he has been deadly and clutch for 10 odd years now and hits 50 yrders with ease
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

48 and 47 yard field goals are not gimmes. They are very tough kicks. Should he have made one of them? Probably. But holding Dan Carpenter solely responsible for the loss is silly. They WR's dropped passes. The QB threw a pick 6. The defense didn't get enough take downs of Sanchez. Richard Marshall had some bad plays. The running game was anemic after Bush went down. The play calling was questionable. The timeout to "ice" the kicker was just dumb. Its totally misplaced to blame a kicker solely.
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cddolphin


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
48 and 47 yard field goals are not gimmes. They are very tough kicks. Should he have made one of them? Probably. But holding Dan Carpenter solely responsible for the loss is silly. They WR's dropped passes. The QB threw a pick 6. The defense didn't get enough take downs of Sanchez. Richard Marshall had some bad plays. The running game was anemic after Bush went down. The play calling was questionable. The timeout to "ice" the kicker was just dumb. Its totally misplaced to blame a kicker solely.


noooo it was the kicker's fault, obviously, we should cut him now...


But seriously, every single facet of yesterday's game was part of the reason why we lost. QB, RB, DB, pass rush, special teams, K, etc. I don't blame only Carpenter, although he did miss two big ones.
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Clutch


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
48 and 47 yard field goals are not gimmes. They are very tough kicks. Should he have made one of them? Probably. But holding Dan Carpenter solely responsible for the loss is silly. They WR's dropped passes. The QB threw a pick 6. The defense didn't get enough take downs of Sanchez. Richard Marshall had some bad plays. The running game was anemic after Bush went down. The play calling was questionable. The timeout to "ice" the kicker was just dumb. Its totally misplaced to blame a kicker solely.


Gotta disagree Merc. Players play hard and both sides make mistakes and great plays. We ask players to play to their strengths, while trying to avoid their weaknesses. The other team will do their best to put these players in position to be exposed. At the end of alot of games it comes down to the kicker.

The kicker has one job. Make the FG. Thats it. RT put his team in a position to win, twice and Carpenter lost the game. He has been great from 40 yards and longer, they stated a few times during the game. Lets face it, he isn't Viniatieri. And I don't want to go forward with this guy as the team gets better. Its one thing to miss kicks now, but in two years when we are a playoff game and this guy has to kick a 49 yarder to win......do you have faith? I don't at this point.

Best to bring in a new guy, at least for the competition.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
48 and 47 yard field goals are not gimmes. They are very tough kicks. Should he have made one of them? Probably. But holding Dan Carpenter solely responsible for the loss is silly. They WR's dropped passes. The QB threw a pick 6. The defense didn't get enough take downs of Sanchez. Richard Marshall had some bad plays. The running game was anemic after Bush went down. The play calling was questionable. The timeout to "ice" the kicker was just dumb. Its totally misplaced to blame a kicker solely.


Gotta disagree Merc. Players play hard and both sides make mistakes and great plays. We ask players to play to their strengths, while trying to avoid their weaknesses. The other team will do their best to put these players in position to be exposed. At the end of alot of games it comes down to the kicker.

The kicker has one job. Make the FG. Thats it. RT put his team in a position to win, twice and Carpenter lost the game. He has been great from 40 yards and longer, they stated a few times during the game. Lets face it, he isn't Viniatieri. And I don't want to go forward with this guy as the team gets better. Its one thing to miss kicks now, but in two years when we are a playoff game and this guy has to kick a 49 yarder to win......do you have faith? I don't at this point.

Best to bring in a new guy, at least for the competition.



There were so many blown plays, by so many players, and so many bad play calls. A game is not one kick and cannot be boiled down to one play. Blaming the kicker for missing a low percentage kick seems misplaced to me. If you want to blame the kicker, feel free. I blame him for his portion, but there is plenty of blame to go around and that kick simply is not an easy one to make. Carp would probably make that kick more time than not, but Sunday he missed. If Tannehill doesn't throw that pick six we win. If Hartline holds on to one or two of his drops maybe we keep a drive alive and score. If Philbin doesn't ice the kicker we might have won. If Richard Marshall doesn't have PI and keep the Jets alive, maybe we win. A lot of players didn't make the plays when it counted. Carpenter was just one of many and it happened to be at the end of a game. I don't see that as a the cause of our loss. Just one of the causes.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, the league averages indicate that a 48 yarder is made about 60-65% of the time. It is not, by any means, a gimme.

If anything Carpenter was just getting closer to the NFL average. Lifetime, he has hit 32 of 46 attempts roughly in that range of 40-49 yards out (he was 32 of 44 before Sunday), while the league average is somewhere around the same.


In other words, 48 yards out is not a high percentage kick in the NFL.
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JCool333


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
FinsWin wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Who cares? Our team sucks anyways. I'd rather have a high draft pick than a victory that is essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things. We should have sucked for Luck last year and we should suck for a good player this year. Keep up the good work, Carpenter.


Another season of this garbage? When do you want us to win games? Never?


I want us to start winning when we have talent on the roster and have a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. I'm not selfish and don't need any morale victories to give me satisfaction. A six or seven win season does nothing for me other than cause frustration come draft day when we're picking behind teams we're more talent-deprived than. I only want what is in the best long-term interest of this franchise, which just happens to be losing.


I hate this philosophy for many reasons.

First of all, every team in this league is a playoff contender. Don't let the media fool you- each and every team in this league has enough talent to win every week. It's nice to say that certain guys are way better than others, but that can all change in the matter of weeks. This league is unpredictable, and anything can happen. Every year a few team which are expected to be SB contenders fall and a few teams expected to draft in the top ten end up in the playoffs. Teams like the Cardinals would be losing out if they agreed with this philosophy.

I don't know how long you have been a Dolphin fan, but I've never seen them win a Super Bowl. I've been watching this team since Marino's early days and I still haven't seen them win. And honestly, I don't know why we believe that Super Bowls are the only goal. I know that's what coaches and analysts always say, but I enjoy the rush of having a playoff team also. I'd much rather that than a 3-13 season. Or even just an 8-8 team that keeps us in it till the end.

And honestly, even last year, when we started off 0-7, I enjoyed watching each and every win. Sure, it probably isn't beneficial for the long run to win during seasons like last year, when the staff changes anyway and we are totally out of contention. But as a fan, I enjoy it anyway.

I think that teams benefit from simply winning. A team generally features a lot of the same players from year to year and they remember winning or losing the previous year as well. A 3-13 season on year makes a playoff year the following a bit more difficult as that team is used to losing. Building a winning environment can have an impact.

It's really hard to follow a bad team. And while the high picks are nice, they don't exactly guarantee eventual success anyway, as the draft is also a bit of a crapshoot. While winning a few more games may make it harder in the draft, I really don't think it makes that much of a difference in terms of rebuilding (it's not as if teams drafting 1st overall always fix their problems).
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Fender


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCool333 wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
FinsWin wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Who cares? Our team sucks anyways. I'd rather have a high draft pick than a victory that is essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things. We should have sucked for Luck last year and we should suck for a good player this year. Keep up the good work, Carpenter.


Another season of this garbage? When do you want us to win games? Never?


I want us to start winning when we have talent on the roster and have a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. I'm not selfish and don't need any morale victories to give me satisfaction. A six or seven win season does nothing for me other than cause frustration come draft day when we're picking behind teams we're more talent-deprived than. I only want what is in the best long-term interest of this franchise, which just happens to be losing.


I hate this philosophy for many reasons.

First of all, every team in this league is a playoff contender. Don't let the media fool you- each and every team in this league has enough talent to win every week. It's nice to say that certain guys are way better than others, but that can all change in the matter of weeks. This league is unpredictable, and anything can happen. Every year a few team which are expected to be SB contenders fall and a few teams expected to draft in the top ten end up in the playoffs. Teams like the Cardinals would be losing out if they agreed with this philosophy.

I don't know how long you have been a Dolphin fan, but I've never seen them win a Super Bowl. I've been watching this team since Marino's early days and I still haven't seen them win. And honestly, I don't know why we believe that Super Bowls are the only goal. I know that's what coaches and analysts always say, but I enjoy the rush of having a playoff team also. I'd much rather that than a 3-13 season. Or even just an 8-8 team that keeps us in it till the end.

And honestly, even last year, when we started off 0-7, I enjoyed watching each and every win. Sure, it probably isn't beneficial for the long run to win during seasons like last year, when the staff changes anyway and we are totally out of contention. But as a fan, I enjoy it anyway.

I think that teams benefit from simply winning. A team generally features a lot of the same players from year to year and they remember winning or losing the previous year as well. A 3-13 season on year makes a playoff year the following a bit more difficult as that team is used to losing. Building a winning environment can have an impact.

It's really hard to follow a bad team. And while the high picks are nice, they don't exactly guarantee eventual success anyway, as the draft is also a bit of a crapshoot. While winning a few more games may make it harder in the draft, I really don't think it makes that much of a difference in terms of rebuilding (it's not as if teams drafting 1st overall always fix their problems).


But only a great QB can be taken with the 1st pick of the draft. And having the worst record has always been a harbinger of future success...

Sarcasm aside this is a great post.
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DolphWins


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
Clutch wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
48 and 47 yard field goals are not gimmes. They are very tough kicks. Should he have made one of them? Probably. But holding Dan Carpenter solely responsible for the loss is silly. They WR's dropped passes. The QB threw a pick 6. The defense didn't get enough take downs of Sanchez. Richard Marshall had some bad plays. The running game was anemic after Bush went down. The play calling was questionable. The timeout to "ice" the kicker was just dumb. Its totally misplaced to blame a kicker solely.


Gotta disagree Merc. Players play hard and both sides make mistakes and great plays. We ask players to play to their strengths, while trying to avoid their weaknesses. The other team will do their best to put these players in position to be exposed. At the end of alot of games it comes down to the kicker.

The kicker has one job. Make the FG. Thats it. RT put his team in a position to win, twice and Carpenter lost the game. He has been great from 40 yards and longer, they stated a few times during the game. Lets face it, he isn't Viniatieri. And I don't want to go forward with this guy as the team gets better. Its one thing to miss kicks now, but in two years when we are a playoff game and this guy has to kick a 49 yarder to win......do you have faith? I don't at this point.

Best to bring in a new guy, at least for the competition.



There were so many blown plays, by so many players, and so many bad play calls. A game is not one kick and cannot be boiled down to one play. Blaming the kicker for missing a low percentage kick seems misplaced to me. If you want to blame the kicker, feel free. I blame him for his portion, but there is plenty of blame to go around and that kick simply is not an easy one to make. Carp would probably make that kick more time than not, but Sunday he missed. If Tannehill doesn't throw that pick six we win. If Hartline holds on to one or two of his drops maybe we keep a drive alive and score. If Philbin doesn't ice the kicker we might have won. If Richard Marshall doesn't have PI and keep the Jets alive, maybe we win. A lot of players didn't make the plays when it counted. Carpenter was just one of many and it happened to be at the end of a game. I don't see that as a the cause of our loss. Just one of the causes.


I dont think anyone is negating the fact that there were many blown plays (fumbles, ints, dropped passes, missed tackles, and blown coverages) in this game that all added up to the end but saying the game didnt come down to a single kick is completely false. Shifting blame away from a player just to place the blame on the entire team doesnt always work, especially in this situation. The team played the entire game to get themselves into a position for a win and that opportunity just happened to be a game winning kick. Game ending mistakes are on a much larger scale than ones that take place during the middle portions of the game since you have time to make adjustments to your game plan. There really shouldnt be any excuse at all for missing so many kicks when a kicker only has a few plays a game and their entire premise is to just kick a ball. It would be like a RB like Thomas fumbling the ball on the last drive of the game or the QB throwing a pick 6 on the final drive and blaming the entire team when they were put in that position to make a play.

We all expect people to make mistakes once in a while and thats completely fine. But lets not act like this is the first time carpenter has missed game winning or tying kicks long distance or not. We dont want WR's who drop key passes or QB's who throw key INTs.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fender wrote:
JCool333 wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
FinsWin wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Who cares? Our team sucks anyways. I'd rather have a high draft pick than a victory that is essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things. We should have sucked for Luck last year and we should suck for a good player this year. Keep up the good work, Carpenter.


Another season of this garbage? When do you want us to win games? Never?


I want us to start winning when we have talent on the roster and have a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. I'm not selfish and don't need any morale victories to give me satisfaction. A six or seven win season does nothing for me other than cause frustration come draft day when we're picking behind teams we're more talent-deprived than. I only want what is in the best long-term interest of this franchise, which just happens to be losing.


I hate this philosophy for many reasons.

First of all, every team in this league is a playoff contender. Don't let the media fool you- each and every team in this league has enough talent to win every week. It's nice to say that certain guys are way better than others, but that can all change in the matter of weeks. This league is unpredictable, and anything can happen. Every year a few team which are expected to be SB contenders fall and a few teams expected to draft in the top ten end up in the playoffs. Teams like the Cardinals would be losing out if they agreed with this philosophy.

I don't know how long you have been a Dolphin fan, but I've never seen them win a Super Bowl. I've been watching this team since Marino's early days and I still haven't seen them win. And honestly, I don't know why we believe that Super Bowls are the only goal. I know that's what coaches and analysts always say, but I enjoy the rush of having a playoff team also. I'd much rather that than a 3-13 season. Or even just an 8-8 team that keeps us in it till the end.

And honestly, even last year, when we started off 0-7, I enjoyed watching each and every win. Sure, it probably isn't beneficial for the long run to win during seasons like last year, when the staff changes anyway and we are totally out of contention. But as a fan, I enjoy it anyway.

I think that teams benefit from simply winning. A team generally features a lot of the same players from year to year and they remember winning or losing the previous year as well. A 3-13 season on year makes a playoff year the following a bit more difficult as that team is used to losing. Building a winning environment can have an impact.

It's really hard to follow a bad team. And while the high picks are nice, they don't exactly guarantee eventual success anyway, as the draft is also a bit of a crapshoot. While winning a few more games may make it harder in the draft, I really don't think it makes that much of a difference in terms of rebuilding (it's not as if teams drafting 1st overall always fix their problems).


But only a great QB can be taken with the 1st pick of the draft. And having the worst record has always been a harbinger of future success...

Sarcasm aside this is a great post.



It's a balance, you can't lose for the sake of draft picks. That gets great players, great coaches and great executives fired from their positions before they have a chance to help a team.

Look at Cam Cameron. With the right players his offense succeeded hugely in San Diego and now it looks similar in Baltimore. We had a chance to stick with that and we didn't because we went 1-15. No matter how you treat it on paper, you can't just keep losing.

In addition to good people getting fired, other good people won't come. We'll lose out on coaches like Jim Harbaugh because we don't have anyone good and because he knows that the franchise isn't patient.

Furthermore, you cannot convince a player like Wake who's in the prime of his career, a period which may only last 5 or 6 years if he's lucky, to put it all on the back-burner for the sake of next years draft picks. Players don't ever stop competing because they're not given that much time and because millions of dollars ride on their playing at the highest level.

To think that a team would ever consider losing on purpose is foolish and short-sighted because it won't happen.

To hope that a team loses is selfish and ugly, I think and probably equally as short-sighted because it won't work.

Winning is one of the biggest components to the growth of a young team. Learning how to win and what it takes is what we're supposedly doing when we say we have 'developing players.' Ryan Tannehill learning how to win is more important than anything the stat sheet has to offer. If he throws for 300 yards every game but never wins, what does that build?

Matt Ryan has no elite skill-set yet he has quietly learned how to win and looks like one of the most clutch QBs in football right now. Sure, he's struggled against REALLY good teams in the post-season but so did Marino and others. Ryan will get his shot if the team is patient and it certainly looks like they are.

In someone's twisted fantasy, Ryan Tannehill and this team can learn to play brilliantly without winning and then, like magic, flip a switch and start piling up victories. In reality, that's not true however. How common are teams who lose and lose and then seemingly over night dominate their divisions for a decade? Those teams always fall back down to Earth. It's much more a crescendo with teams like Indianapolis and New England of the 2000s.

Teams like ours scratch and claw to earn victories so that 3, 4 and 5 years down the road they know how to win those close games that make the difference between 8-8 and 11-5, games that make the difference between making and missing the Play-Offs.

If you want to root for a team that makes the Play-Offs every year for nearly a decade like the Colts & Patriots, you have to appreciate that there will be tough years in there where the team doesn't have 13, 14 or 15 wins. There will be years where the team sneaks in with 10 or 11 wins and, if they're good, they have a chance. Look at the Giants. Look at the Steelers. You don't have to be the #1 seed to win the Super Bowl but you do have to consistently make the Play-Offs if you want to give yourself enough chances that it finally happens.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ I've been making a similar case to this one for a while now. Losing on purpose is just a dumb idea. In addition to what you said here, I would add that its basically saying that you scouting department can't find blue chip players unless they are consensus picks.

Sport is played to be won. You insult the players, the coaches, the fans and game itself by taking a dive. Its especially short sighted when you consider how inexact of a science drafting is, and how many "sure things" have flopped. Selling out a season for a crack at one guy who is a totally unproven commodity is lunacy, from where I sit.


Finally, I'll add, the day the Dolphins cash in an entire season for a chance at one college guy, is the day I will find another team to be passionate about. I won't root for a team that quits on that level.
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