Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

At some point, did we get too young?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Kansas City Chiefs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jakuvious


Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 10414
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:07 pm    Post subject: At some point, did we get too young? Reply with quote

So, this has been an aspect of pride, I think, for most Chiefs fans over the past two years, that we've been one of the youngest teams in the NFL. All of our best playmakers are generally in their mid-20s, with guys like Tamba as the "old" men in their late 20s.

But do we really have any leadership on this team anymore? Our 10 oldest players are Ryan Lilja, Abram Elam, Terrence Copper, Dustin Colquitt, Matt Cassel, Travis Daniels, Jacques Reeves, Derrick Johnson, Thomas Gafford, and Stanford Routt. In that list, you have three special teamers, three backups, two of the weakest links in our offense, a new CB, and then Derrick Johnson, who generally seems to be a quiet guy, especially for a MLB. I've seen quotes saying that the guys getting our defense set and getting the plays called are guys like Kendrick Lewis, Eric Berry, and Jovan Belcher, who is the veteran of the group at 2 years as a starter.

And we wonder why we fold under pressure and seem to lack spirit.
_________________

Adopt-a-Chief: Travis "Better Than Tony Moeaki" Kelce
56 catches, 747 yards, 5 TDs, one very funny obscene gesture, and one fumble that wasn't a fumble
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6676
Location: SC
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first thing Pioli did was push the incumbent veteran leadership out the door in players like Tony Gonzalez and Brian Waters for example. Those two players were not only productive on the field (Gonzalez more than Waters at that time) and just as important, in the lockerroom. But they get tossed aside by the same GM that then proceeded to talk about acquiring "the right 53", which in effect meant Pioli's 53 (enter Matt Cassell and Mike Vrabel for example). The other players already on the roster by all appearances aren't necessarily leaders, although solid on the field (Hali, Johnson, Flowers, Bowe, Charles). So you have players that were in a lockerroom with players like Gonzalez and Waters as members of the veteran leadership, all of the sudden in a lockerroom with "leaders" that were handpicked by the new GM.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6676
Location: SC
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So then you have Matt Cassell and Mike Vrabel. Vrabel rides off into the sunset and we are left with Casell, who I don't think is viewed as a leader by teammates. A nice guy, sure, but leader, I doubt it. We also have our best hope in Eric Berry. I think Berry is still finding his way and might be one of those players that is more of a productive player and example of hard work/effort rather than a leader that unites the lockerroom.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
onejayhawk


Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 5711
Location: Waco, Tx
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lack of fire in this last game is very much a youth thing. We played hard against Atlanta, and they were just better. We let up against Buffalo, and they smacked us around. It does not help that the leaders on defense are gimpy.

We will get past it. When we do, someone is in for a rude shock.

J
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 4791
Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: At some point, did we get too young? Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
So, this has been an aspect of pride, I think, for most Chiefs fans over the past two years, that we've been one of the youngest teams in the NFL. All of our best playmakers are generally in their mid-20s, with guys like Tamba as the "old" men in their late 20s.

But do we really have any leadership on this team anymore? Our 10 oldest players are Ryan Lilja, Abram Elam, Terrence Copper, Dustin Colquitt, Matt Cassel, Travis Daniels, Jacques Reeves, Derrick Johnson, Thomas Gafford, and Stanford Routt. In that list, you have three special teamers, three backups, two of the weakest links in our offense, a new CB, and then Derrick Johnson, who generally seems to be a quiet guy, especially for a MLB. I've seen quotes saying that the guys getting our defense set and getting the plays called are guys like Kendrick Lewis, Eric Berry, and Jovan Belcher, who is the veteran of the group at 2 years as a starter.

And we wonder why we fold under pressure and seem to lack spirit.


that ain't the problem...the loss of Vrabel is not the reason our defense is a sieve and the loss of Waters is not the reason the OL seems like it quits when we get down. We've seen what the D can do last year and the only issue with the O-Line last year besides B-Rich, was interior strength, which is better now.

Romeo seems to be saying the players aren't doing their assignments...i'm sure that's part of it, but how do guys like Tamba, DJ, Berry, Dorsey, and Jackson suddenly suck ALL THE TIME...or in the case of the first three, they never STAND OUT anymore. How are they all of a sudden this bad on their assignments and reactions? The only thing that's really changed since last year is Romeo is now HC/DC instead of DC. It worked against GB, Den, and Oak, but we actually seemed to have a game plan specific for the team we played, it was well thought out, and well executed. It starts with the game plan...there has been no imagination so far, like we're still playing vanilla preseason defense.

As for the offense...all those things said about the team under Orton are almost surely true...any other issue on offense becomes a minor detail with another QB. Nevertheless, I think it's clear that while it's not perfect, it will be plenty good enough most games if the defense can get back to normal.

On the bright side the offense is 5th in total yards, despite some garbage time we proved right out of the gate that we can move the ball and get in the end zone...but the combination of the defense being a sieve and Cassel struggling when the deficit starts to grow seems to be holding us back from our potential, much like the offense put too much pressure on the D last year...it's always something.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6676
Location: SC
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: At some point, did we get too young? Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
So, this has been an aspect of pride, I think, for most Chiefs fans over the past two years, that we've been one of the youngest teams in the NFL. All of our best playmakers are generally in their mid-20s, with guys like Tamba as the "old" men in their late 20s.

But do we really have any leadership on this team anymore? Our 10 oldest players are Ryan Lilja, Abram Elam, Terrence Copper, Dustin Colquitt, Matt Cassel, Travis Daniels, Jacques Reeves, Derrick Johnson, Thomas Gafford, and Stanford Routt. In that list, you have three special teamers, three backups, two of the weakest links in our offense, a new CB, and then Derrick Johnson, who generally seems to be a quiet guy, especially for a MLB. I've seen quotes saying that the guys getting our defense set and getting the plays called are guys like Kendrick Lewis, Eric Berry, and Jovan Belcher, who is the veteran of the group at 2 years as a starter.

And we wonder why we fold under pressure and seem to lack spirit.


that ain't the problem...the loss of Vrabel is not the reason our defense is a sieve and the loss of Waters is not the reason the OL seems like it quits when we get down. We've seen what the D can do last year and the only issue with the O-Line last year besides B-Rich, was interior strength, which is better now.

Romeo seems to be saying the players aren't doing their assignments...i'm sure that's part of it, but how do guys like Tamba, DJ, Berry, Dorsey, and Jackson suddenly suck ALL THE TIME...or in the case of the first three, they never STAND OUT anymore. How are they all of a sudden this bad on their assignments and reactions? The only thing that's really changed since last year is Romeo is now HC/DC instead of DC. It worked against GB, Den, and Oak, but we actually seemed to have a game plan specific for the team we played, it was well thought out, and well executed. It starts with the game plan...there has been no imagination so far, like we're still playing vanilla preseason defense.

As for the offense...all those things said about the team under Orton are almost surely true...any other issue on offense becomes a minor detail with another QB. Nevertheless, I think it's clear that while it's not perfect, it will be plenty good enough most games if the defense can get back to normal.

On the bright side the offense is 5th in total yards, despite some garbage time we proved right out of the gate that we can move the ball and get in the end zone...but the combination of the defense being a sieve and Cassel struggling when the deficit starts to grow seems to be holding us back from our potential, much like the offense put too much pressure on the D last year...it's always something.


AR58,
I assume you are talking to me. I never said the reason we are struggling is because the players I mentioned are gone. What I am talking about is the leadership vacuum that was created on our roster and never filled. Of course players are missing assignments and making mistakes - that will happen. I am talking about what we have all mentioned - the lack of fire and how when our team gets collectively punched in the face, we tend to wilt.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 4791
Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't talking to you...just the thread in general, I hadn't even really read anything.

Specifically for you, you bring up the Fairbanks-Bullough system and I don't know if I agree or disagree. My question for you is, it seemed to work great the last 3 games of '11 when we actually schemed for the team we were playing. Actually it worked the last half of the year as well as a few games early in the year. Even in blowouts against NE, it was awesome for a half before the D wore out from being on the field all game.

So do you see it that even if he game plans better it still ain't gonna work from here on out or does the whole thing just need to go? And if so, why did it work so well against teams like GB, Pit, and NE?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arrowhead86


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 4382
Location: Kansas City
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the whole point of drafting team captains was to bring in leadership? Seemed like a legit plan but you cant force leadership roles on players just by title.

Leaders naturally ascend. This team unfortunately is lacking leadership a the most important position! LeRon McClain said it last year - the huddle was different with Orton. Players believed.

Look at last night's game despite the 3 turnover from Manning. The announcers even commented on the defense stepping up because they believe if they just keep getting the ball back to Manning they have a chance.

This team doesn't believe.
_________________
Throw to score! Run to win!
2014 Adopt-A-Chief: #29 Eric Berry, S
Stats: Irrelevant Status: Chief family for life!
Get well soon EB29!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rearviewmirror


Moderator
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 18718
Location: ^^Tamba waiting on his next feast in the Avy Ryk on the sig
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrowhead86 wrote:
I thought the whole point of drafting team captains was to bring in leadership? Seemed like a legit plan but you cant force leadership roles on players just by title.

Leaders naturally ascend. This team unfortunately is lacking leadership a the most important position! LeRon McClain said it last year - the huddle was different with Orton. Players believed.

Look at last night's game despite the 3 turnover from Manning. The announcers even commented on the defense stepping up because they believe if they just keep getting the ball back to Manning they have a chance.

This team doesn't believe.


and it all comes back to Cassel and Pioli's refusal to get rid of him.

I don't care if we keep romeo (I'd especially like it as a 3-4 DC, but that likely won't happen)

but..

Scotty's gotta go
Scotty's gotta go
Scotty's gotta go
_________________

les paul wrote:
There's only one thing that determines a teams performance on any given sunday
Their opponent-
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6676
Location: SC
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrowhead86 wrote:
I thought the whole point of drafting team captains was to bring in leadership? Seemed like a legit plan but you cant force leadership roles on players just by title.

Leaders naturally ascend. This team unfortunately is lacking leadership a the most important position! LeRon McClain said it last year - the huddle was different with Orton. Players believed.

Look at last night's game despite the 3 turnover from Manning. The announcers even commented on the defense stepping up because they believe if they just keep getting the ball back to Manning they have a chance.

This team doesn't believe.


Very good points. A leader is someone that grows into the position through time and being an example. Pioli seems to believe if you bring in high character players and/or players that have a good understanding of technique/fundamentals that they will almost by default become leaders in a "right 53 environment". Just because a player is a nice guy or makes an impact on the field doesn't necessarily mean that player will be a leader that can rally the troops. I get the impression that players like Hali, Johnson, Charles, Berry, and Flowers, to name a few play more of a lead by example on the field role.

But back to drafting leaders - I don't think you can simply draft a player and have them fill a leadership role. That comes from "paying your dues" and through experience playing on the team. Berry might be our best bet for a long term leader but he needs to gain experience first and settle in on the roster and grow with the other players.

A team can draft projectable leaders but it takes time for them to develop into that role - if they ever do.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DT58_lives_on


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 5806
Location: St. Cloud, MN
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with this thread. I don't think the lack of veteran leaders is our only problem, more a fundamental problem from our leadership down. Forcing guys like Gonzalez and Waters out showed a lack of respect for veteran players. Combine that with trying to re-plant leadership (Vrabel and Cassel) is an ok theory, but veterans on the team know you don't respect them. I'm not saying you need to be utterly loyal to veterans, but forcing out two of the better liked players including arguably the GOAT of the TE position...come on.

I've always thought this, but have simply let it slide, but I really believe that Pioli's arrogance is a huge part of what is hurting this team.
_________________
[image]http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg481/jesse_fritsch1/DEEFORD2_zpsef1ad50c.jpg[image]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6676
Location: SC
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
I wasn't talking to you...just the thread in general, I hadn't even really read anything.

Specifically for you, you bring up the Fairbanks-Bullough system and I don't know if I agree or disagree. My question for you is, it seemed to work great the last 3 games of '11 when we actually schemed for the team we were playing. Actually it worked the last half of the year as well as a few games early in the year. Even in blowouts against NE, it was awesome for a half before the D wore out from being on the field all game.

So do you see it that even if he game plans better it still ain't gonna work from here on out or does the whole thing just need to go? And if so, why did it work so well against teams like GB, Pit, and NE?


AR58, actually, I think IIRC Crennell used more 1-gap assignments in his gameplan and the big key to any defense is having good coverage and pressuring the quarterback. Specifically against Green Bay we played press-man and played it well. We were physical with the wide receivers and stayed with them in coverage and didn't let them either sit down in the zone soft spots (Jennings loves to do that) or stretch the zone seams down the field (Nelson earns his paycheck that way) AND we were able to put pressure on Rodgers.

IMO the F-B system is somewhat antiquated in that it is what I call a "bendover but don't break defense" because it gives up chunks of yards but supposedly doesn't give up a ton of points when it works. In it's heyday under Parcells in New York it worked great because he had big defenders that could also run to the ball - they were more physical. But in this day and age of high powered passing attacks that are promoted by the NFL, this system is going to eventually have a problem in keeping offenses from clicking.

I use this as an example, if you are playing a high powered passing attack like say, the Green Bay Packers and your defense is predicated on allowing plays to be completed by not necessarily giving up big plays that lead to points it is going to be hard to sustain that for the entire game as the offense continues to adjust. The odds of you continually shutting down that type of offense when you are back on your heels are not high.

The F-B system worked because their big defensive linemen could still pressure the quarterback because they were bigger, faster, and better than their offensive counterparts. Belichick could use the system earlier because he had players like Richard Seymour for example that could 2-gap and 1-gap. He could stop the run and anchor AND collapse the pocket on a consistent basis. But the flaw with this sytem is that it doesn't give you as much flexibility as the other 3-4 schemes (1-gap think Wade Phillips and zone blitz think - LeBeau) because your defensive linemen are built to stop the run and offer (especially in our case) little to no push on the quarterback. So with our defensive line being what it is, the offense pretty much knows where our pass rush is going to have to come from - either Hali or Houston and maybe someone like Derrick Johnson. But if we send Johnson we are losing him in coverage.

The beauty of a - LeBeau defense for example is that you never know where the rush is going to come from. Offenses know where our pass rush has to come from because they know where it likely won't come from.

I have said alot about my disdain for the F-B system in the past, so I don't want to go on and on. It has it's value as a situational defense, specifically when loaded to stop the run, but IMO it leaves you vulnerable to the passing game of today's NFL.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6676
Location: SC
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
Arrowhead86 wrote:
I thought the whole point of drafting team captains was to bring in leadership? Seemed like a legit plan but you cant force leadership roles on players just by title.

Leaders naturally ascend. This team unfortunately is lacking leadership a the most important position! LeRon McClain said it last year - the huddle was different with Orton. Players believed.

Look at last night's game despite the 3 turnover from Manning. The announcers even commented on the defense stepping up because they believe if they just keep getting the ball back to Manning they have a chance.

This team doesn't believe.


and it all comes back to Cassel and Pioli's refusal to get rid of him.

I don't care if we keep romeo (I'd especially like it as a 3-4 DC, but that likely won't happen)

but..

Scotty's gotta go
Scotty's gotta go
Scotty's gotta go


If we parted ways with Crennel, I don't know that we need to worry about a new DC completely dismantling our defense and starting from scratch. There are several quality pieces to the puzzle already on the roster. As I have said before, the good GMs/HCs/DCs/OCs put their players in the best position to make an impact and not force square pegs into round holes. There are plenty of examples of this that I have already highlighted in this thread.

I will just throw a couple of names out there that show one scenario where I don't think we blow up the roster if we added these coaches :

Head Coach Ray Horton (Arizona's DC, experience playing for and coaching with - LeBeau)
Defensive Coordinator Darren Perry (Green Bay Packer's secondary coach - safeties, experience playing for and/or coaching with Dom Capers/- LeBeau)

I love how Ray Horton's defense attacks an offense and gets pressure both from the dline and linebackers. It is a young, aggressive defense that he has been able to unite to play as a complete unit. That is a tough thing to do - get young players to play within a system. Since he has joined the Arizona staff, he has been able to do that. That takes alot of ability and coaching leadership to get them to buy into the system and help them grow and develop. We need that here.

Darren Perry has done a very good job in helping the young players in the GB secondary to develop. Plus he has the experience and understanding of the defensive principles that have made Capers and LeBeau successful in the NFL.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mikek163


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 5546
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comparing us in 2010 (in terms of vet leadership) and now is night and day.

Let's take a quick look.

Vets in 2010 -

Thomas Jones
Shaun Smith
Chris Chambers
Mike Vrabel
Ron Edwards
Demorrio Williams
Casey Weigmann

Vets in 2012 -

Matt Cassel
Brady Quinn
Kevin Boss
Dwayne Bowe (missed him all camp obviously)
Ryan Lilja
Derrick Johnson
Tamba Hali
Abram Elam

I actually have us having 1 more "vet" on our roster now than I do in 2010, but the names of the players is what speaks volumes. Where is our Vrabel on defense? Where is our Weigmann on offense? I mean Christ, look around the NFL, no roster looks like this in terms of leadership.

Edit - I actually forgot to give an honorable mention to Kendrick Lewis, who is obviously injured. But his leadership is suppos amazing in the locker room and during game time. Missing him hurts a lot more than what we think.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22835
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too young is now the issue? Are you seriously asking that question?

The issue is, these young players were never as talented as some of you liked to believe they were.

As for leadership, that starts at the HC position. Crenel is a working class sap. A Pioli puppet. The team needed a tough coach who could mold the young players (look at Shiano in Tampa). Relatively young team that walked over their old coach and has them competing.

Crennel is just an awful HC. Great DC, but showed in Cleveland he's an awful HC. I'm all for second chances, but you have to know if the guy has the make-up from the get go.

Pioli, like Crennel, Mangini, McDaniels are nothing more than products of the Belichicks success. He is the great coach, motivator and schemer that built the Patriots on a budget (with a big help from hitting on Brady in the draft). From there, everyone has been a product of that success. None of them have been able to create on their own. The trend continues.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Kansas City Chiefs All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group