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MNF Week 3: Seattle Seahawks(1-1) vs Green Bay Packers(1-1)
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JOEJOE


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I just found this really good (by very long) article that explains the catch without the mainstream media bias... for anyone who is still interested..

http://lifexinxrewind.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/why-the-seahawks-packers-finish-was-not-an-interception-and-why-it-would-have-been-called-the-same-by-any-referee-crew/
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Bruce Irvin= Sacks: 4-1/2, Tackles: 5, FF: 1

Golden Tate= Rec: 10, Yds: 144, Avg: 14.4, TD: 3
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SaveourSonics


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, first of all, you are wrong Osprey. Tate does NOT need two hands on the ball nor does he need it tucked into his chest. The burden of proof falls on the side saying Tate didn't possess the ball, and there's nothing from any angle that gives proof he wasn't controlling the football with that one hand. I'll say it over and over again, there is no such thing as Jennings having "more" possession of the football simply because he has two hands on it.

Next, jmoney, that's fine to be upset about the PI call. The only reason I don't know why you're bringing it up is because it's not something that is really debatable. Tate clearly got away with an egregious push-off that the ref missed. Glad we got that settled.

And finally,
Quote:
Oh by the way, you know who seems to agree with me? The NFL. They aren't bringing back the refs because they are upset about a Kam Chancellor PI call, hate to break it to you guys.


No. Just no. The NFL is NOT bringing back the refs as an admittance of their viewpoint on the call. They are bringing back the refs due to the outlandish outburst from the media and general public. Their hand was forced as the product on the field was put into question and they could no longer operate under those conditions and still have good business. The NFL, quite frankly, could give a damn who won that game. They could give a damn which way the call went or even if the call was correct really. They care about the perception of their product, and with so many people attacking their product, they had to act.
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SaveourSonics


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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SwiftTexan


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's hoping I can end this silly debate.

Quote:
Wow, I just found this really good (by very long) article that explains the catch without the mainstream media bias... for anyone who is still interested..

http://lifexinxrewind.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/why-the-seahawks-packers-finish-was-not-an-interception-and-why-it-would-have-been-called-the-same-by-any-referee-crew/


Unfortunately this long-winded and mostly well thought out response has one fatal flaw. He misunderstands the ruling of a simultaneous catch. Here's a quote from the excerpt.

Quote:
The other important part is that when Tate’s right hand readjusts, he does so before Jennings feet touch the ground. By NFL rules Jennings has not established possession yet as both feet are still in the air, so not interception has taken place anyway


Not true. Here is the official NFL Rulebook on the matter.

Quote:
If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers," the rule reads. "It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control."

The 2011 rulebook contains an example that does not appear in the 2012 version. The example from the 2011 rulebook falls under a "not a simultaneous catch" heading. It reads, "First-and-10 on A20. B3 controls a pass in the air at the A40 before A2, who then also controls the ball before they land. As they land, A2 and B3 fall down to the ground.
Rulebooks change from year to year. The rule for simultaneous catches did not change, to my knowledge. The removal of this example from 2011 to 2012 might not be significant. Update: While the same example does not appear in the 2012 rulebook, it is part of the 2012 casebook, so it survives.


As far as I'm concerned - MD Jennings had control FIRST and the aforementioned "unbiased" article seems to agree with me by not taking objection to the fact. Jennings had control of the ball first before Tate gained control (and I'm not convinced Tate EVER gained control). It doesn't matter if the feet are on the ground or not - it's irrelevant.

SOS - You're usually right the money but I would raise one issue. Here's your post

Quote:
Okay, first of all, you are wrong Osprey. Tate does NOT need two hands on the ball nor does he need it tucked into his chest. The burden of proof falls on the side saying Tate didn't possess the ball, and there's nothing from any angle that gives proof he wasn't controlling the football with that one hand. I'll say it over and over again, there is no such thing as Jennings having "more" possession of the football simply because he has two hands on it.


Again from the NFL rulebook regarding under what conditions would Tate have possession of the ball in order for it to be considered a simultaneous catch.

Quote:
"Secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground."


Hands. That little "s" on the end means two. Not one hand trapped behind the ball and one hand grabbing onto Jennings. Two hands. There are different rules between a regular catch (in the field of play) and what constitutes a catch in the endzone for a simultaneous catch.

Argue until you are blue in the face but Tate did not catch that ball. I know. Osprey knows it. Tate knows it. Pete Carroll knows it. 99.99% of the world knows it.

The real issue here is not that the call was made but entirely the circumstances. And here is why I blame the replacement refs. I don't care if the replacements call phantom PIs or holding when there was no hold. That stuff happens regardless if it's a replacement ref, a real ref or Stevie Wonder officiating. The issue is how it was dealt with. The catch was way too close to call in real-time but the replacement ref made a declaration of a touchdown. He wasn't in a great position to make that call. Coming from the corner of the endzone with Tate's back to him, it would have been extremely difficult to make that call with any certainty. Real refs would have conferred with one another in order to assure no rash decisions were made. Instead he made a err in judgement by making a snap call when he had no reasonable amount of evidence to do so.

Not only should you not try to argue that Tate had a catch. But you should be apologizing. If Seattle gets into the playoffs by one game and Green Bay doesn't by one game - it's going to be embarrassing. A stain on the season. Even if Green Bay is the 3rd seed and has to face a tougher opponent than if they were the 2nd seed. The ramifications are endless. It's a disgrace. The Seahawks have to play on because there's nothing that can be done now. It's in the record books. But every one of them and every Seahawks fan should feel like they've just been caught stealing. And to stand in the store and try to convince the cops that you weren't stealing - just seeing if that DVD player would fit in your backpack is a joke.
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Sacks98


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree swift a receiver can catch a ball with one hand otherwise you would be telling me that a receiver can't haul a ball in with one hand get both feet down and get out of bounds without touching it with the other hand.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SwiftTexan wrote:


Not only should you not try to argue that Tate had a catch. But you should be apologizing. If Seattle gets into the playoffs by one game and Green Bay doesn't by one game - it's going to be embarrassing. A stain on the season. Even if Green Bay is the 3rd seed and has to face a tougher opponent than if they were the 2nd seed. The ramifications are endless. It's a disgrace. The Seahawks have to play on because there's nothing that can be done now. It's in the record books. But every one of them and every Seahawks fan should feel like they've just been caught stealing. And to stand in the store and try to convince the cops that you weren't stealing - just seeing if that DVD player would fit in your backpack is a joke.


What's embarassing is how many people aren't using their eyes or brains



How the heck can you have possession without your feet touching the ground?

That means the NFL needs to apologize for thousands upon thousands of receivers and defensive players called out of bounds when they really had possession by just catching the ball in the air

If anyone had possession of the ball before they hit the ground it was Tate.

He had TWO HANDS on the football before he hit the ground.

The rule doesn't say you have to have two hands initially on the football but two hands before the ball touches the ground, which he clearly did.
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SaveourSonics


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Swift. You're taking the rulebook FAR too literally. The excerpt you quoted is nothing more than proper usage of the English language. It is correct grammar to say "hands or arms". They do not specify two hands for a reason. That is silly to say a player cannot control the football with one hand. I could post countless Youtube clips of a player catching a football with one hand. Are those not catches by NFL rule?
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SwiftTexan


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different rules for determining a simultaneous catch in the endzone.

Jennings caught the ball first. He had control of the ball first and then Tate got his hands on the ball. Jennings has control first - Green Bay interception. Doesn't matter if his feet are on the ground. According to the rulebook, in the case of a contested simultaneous catch in the endzone, if player A (Jennings) has control of the ball and then, afterwards, player B (Tate) gains control - Player A will be awarded the interception even if the events occured in mid-air.

Quote: Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5: “It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.” (Emphasis added.)
Thus, it doesn’t matter whether the officials determined that Tate and Jennings jointly had “possession” when they landed; the question is whether Jennings “gained control” first.

Jennings had two hands on the ball and had control first.
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SwiftTexan


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
SwiftTexan wrote:


Not only should you not try to argue that Tate had a catch. But you should be apologizing. If Seattle gets into the playoffs by one game and Green Bay doesn't by one game - it's going to be embarrassing. A stain on the season. Even if Green Bay is the 3rd seed and has to face a tougher opponent than if they were the 2nd seed. The ramifications are endless. It's a disgrace. The Seahawks have to play on because there's nothing that can be done now. It's in the record books. But every one of them and every Seahawks fan should feel like they've just been caught stealing. And to stand in the store and try to convince the cops that you weren't stealing - just seeing if that DVD player would fit in your backpack is a joke.


What's embarassing is how many people aren't using their eyes or brains

How the heck can you have possession without your feet touching the ground?

That means the NFL needs to apologize for thousands upon thousands of receivers and defensive players called out of bounds when they really had possession by just catching the ball in the air

If anyone had possession of the ball before they hit the ground it was Tate.

He had TWO HANDS on the football before he hit the ground.

The rule doesn't say you have to have two hands initially on the football but two hands before the ball touches the ground, which he clearly did.


Different rules for a simultaneous catch the endzone. Please read the rulebook and inform yourself before accusing me of not using my brain. Thank you.

Ground doesn't matter. Tate and Jennings could still be in the air or on a boat right now. What matters, in this specific case of a simultaneous catch in the endzone, is who had control first. Nothing else. Not how many hands Tate eventually got on the ball. Tate could have had all 10 fingers and all 10 toes on the ball when he and Jennings hit the ground, it doesn't matter. Jennings got the ball first - it's his.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SwiftTexan wrote:
Different rules for determining a simultaneous catch in the endzone.

Jennings caught the ball first. He had control of the ball first and then Tate got his hands on the ball. Jennings has control first - Green Bay interception. Doesn't matter if his feet are on the ground. According to the rulebook, in the case of a contested simultaneous catch in the endzone, if player A (Jennings) has control of the ball and then, afterwards, player B (Tate) gains control - Player A will be awarded the interception even if the events occured in mid-air.

Quote: Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5: “It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.” (Emphasis added.)
Thus, it doesn’t matter whether the officials determined that Tate and Jennings jointly had “possession” when they landed; the question is whether Jennings “gained control” first.

Jennings had two hands on the ball and had control first.
Tate's hands hit the ball at the same time, so how in the world did you ascertain that?
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SwiftTexan


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
SwiftTexan wrote:
Different rules for determining a simultaneous catch in the endzone.

Jennings caught the ball first. He had control of the ball first and then Tate got his hands on the ball. Jennings has control first - Green Bay interception. Doesn't matter if his feet are on the ground. According to the rulebook, in the case of a contested simultaneous catch in the endzone, if player A (Jennings) has control of the ball and then, afterwards, player B (Tate) gains control - Player A will be awarded the interception even if the events occured in mid-air.

Quote: Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5: “It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.” (Emphasis added.)
Thus, it doesn’t matter whether the officials determined that Tate and Jennings jointly had “possession” when they landed; the question is whether Jennings “gained control” first.

Jennings had two hands on the ball and had control first.
Tate's hands hit the ball at the same time, so how in the world did you ascertain that?


Please watch: watch.tsn.ca/nfl/clip769974

Jennings got control of the ball first. Then Tate had a few fingers on the ball. Then he had his hand on the ball between the ball and Jennings' chest. He then tried his best to get both hands on the ball as they fell to the ground.

It was close. Extremely close. But whether Jennings had control for 1/8th of a second or an hour - all that matters is that he was first. The Review should have caught that.
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outside_Insider


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

please watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDnSdkefYAA SwiftTexan.

Switch to 720 HD quality and enlarge screen

Tate touches the ball first, and "controls it with on arm leveraged against Jenning's arm at the same time. I actually don't believe this is the definition as you do, but anyways this video shows Tate contacts the ball first with his left hand.

Many other videos show him with simultaneous possession with 2 feet prior to Jennings, but you seem to disagree on the definition of control, so I thought I'd show you that control (as you define it) was simultaneous as well
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SwiftTexan


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

outside_Insider wrote:
please watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDnSdkefYAA SwiftTexan.

Switch to 720 HD quality and enlarge screen

Tate touches the ball first, and "controls it with on arm leveraged against Jenning's arm at the same time. I actually don't believe this is the definition as you do, but anyways this video shows Tate contacts the ball first with his left hand.

Many other videos show him with simultaneous possession with 2 feet prior to Jennings, but you seem to disagree on the definition of control, so I thought I'd show you that control (as you define it) was simultaneous as well


All I see if Jennings catching the ball and Tate getting 2 or 3 fingers on it. The feet don't matter. Tate could have no feet and its' still the same call. And it's not my definition - it's the NFL's. The rule is specific to a simultaneous catch in the endzone. I've posted the quote from the rulebook in a previous post. Go find it. Read it. Stop telling me about the feet.

I've watched your youtube clip. The music was annoying and even with the 720 - it was still pretty blurry. I prefer mine which has a clearer picture and breaks it down in a more concise manner.

Tate = no catch.
Seahawks = Win
It doesn't add up but that's the story. Move on. Game 4. Put your helmets on and put this ugliness behind us.
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strat1080


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SwiftTexan wrote:
outside_Insider wrote:
please watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDnSdkefYAA SwiftTexan.

Switch to 720 HD quality and enlarge screen

Tate touches the ball first, and "controls it with on arm leveraged against Jenning's arm at the same time. I actually don't believe this is the definition as you do, but anyways this video shows Tate contacts the ball first with his left hand.

Many other videos show him with simultaneous possession with 2 feet prior to Jennings, but you seem to disagree on the definition of control, so I thought I'd show you that control (as you define it) was simultaneous as well


All I see if Jennings catching the ball and Tate getting 2 or 3 fingers on it. The feet don't matter. Tate could have no feet and its' still the same call. And it's not my definition - it's the NFL's. The rule is specific to a simultaneous catch in the endzone. I've posted the quote from the rulebook in a previous post. Go find it. Read it. Stop telling me about the feet.

I've watched your youtube clip. The music was annoying and even with the 720 - it was still pretty blurry. I prefer mine which has a clearer picture and breaks it down in a more concise manner.

Tate = no catch.
Seahawks = Win
It doesn't add up but that's the story. Move on. Game 4. Put your helmets on and put this ugliness behind us.


The bottom line is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO footage of Tate EVER POSSESSING the ball PERIOD!!!

When you break down that play Jenning clearly has possession of the ball from different angles and different moments throughout the play. There is not any video footage or photos of Tate ACTUALLY POSSESSING THE BALL!!!

This is comical. It was such a poorly blown call that here we are three days after the game and the regular officials are ALREADY BACK!!!

You guys are going to try to say it wasn't a blown call. RIDICULOUS!!!.

I posted a few pages back that 87% of the country and the majority of people in EVERY STATE, including WASHINGTON think it was a blown call. Heck even Seahawks player themselves don't think they won the game.

Quit being homers guys. The NFL itself said Tate should have been called for Offensive PI which should have ended the game. The NFL statement itself basically says that the Seahawks didn't deserve to win the game. The only reason "Golden Taint" was even in position to make the catch is because he shoves somebody out of the way.

Yes, on Hail Mary plays they let a lot of calls go but you can't just shove somebody to the ground. That was one of the worst pushoffs ever seen in the NFL. Jon Gruden said it was one of the worst cases of Offensive Pass Interference he's ever seen. Golden Tate cheated on the play. The play should have been whistled dead. The guy who was rewarded the TD cheated to be in position to catch the ball that he didn't really catch.
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strat1080


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SwiftTexan wrote:
outside_Insider wrote:
please watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDnSdkefYAA SwiftTexan.

Switch to 720 HD quality and enlarge screen

Tate touches the ball first, and "controls it with on arm leveraged against Jenning's arm at the same time. I actually don't believe this is the definition as you do, but anyways this video shows Tate contacts the ball first with his left hand.

Many other videos show him with simultaneous possession with 2 feet prior to Jennings, but you seem to disagree on the definition of control, so I thought I'd show you that control (as you define it) was simultaneous as well


All I see if Jennings catching the ball and Tate getting 2 or 3 fingers on it. The feet don't matter. Tate could have no feet and its' still the same call. And it's not my definition - it's the NFL's. The rule is specific to a simultaneous catch in the endzone. I've posted the quote from the rulebook in a previous post. Go find it. Read it. Stop telling me about the feet.

I've watched your youtube clip. The music was annoying and even with the 720 - it was still pretty blurry. I prefer mine which has a clearer picture and breaks it down in a more concise manner.

Tate = no catch.
Seahawks = Win
It doesn't add up but that's the story. Move on. Game 4. Put your helmets on and put this ugliness behind us.


I see the same thing. The ball goes into Jennings hands. Tate then puts his hand on Jennings wrist. Then it comes off. Then it goes back on and as they are going to the ground he begins to wrestle for the ball.

That is in direct conflict with the simultaneous possession rule as currently composed.

Outside insider. Merely touching the ball does not equate to having possession. Quit being ridiculous. The ball grazed off his fingertips into Jennings hands and then he had his hand on Jennings' wrist as the players were falling to the ground. Give me a break dude. You might want to go have your vision checked out.
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