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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 8161
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, and article from Advanced NFL stats on how good the Haley/Ben show was this week.

a FB that can not block in the running game is a smallish TE that is lining up in the backfield. If he can not block well in the running game then why is he in there for the running game? You could complain about Bronco and D.J lining up as FB and being stiff but they hit a hole/player and did not get trucked.

I think he will be good if the Steelers got to more west-coast short passing style but he flat out sucks as a run blocker.
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SMashMouthMike


Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 4659
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good link & post, jebrick.

Quote:
a FB that can not block in the running game is a smallish TE that is lining up in the backfield. If he can not block well in the running game then why is he in there for the running game? You could complain about Bronco and D.J lining up as FB and being stiff but they hit a hole/player and did not get trucked.

I think he will be good if the Steelers got to more west-coast short passing style but he flat out sucks as a run blocker.


But I digress. The film does not lie. The offense has a high score rate in drives he has played in. Not only does our offense resemble a wco right now, it could be it's base. He isn't bowling over MLBs and probably won't ever do that. But he can get in their way and get pancaked so our RBs don't-at least they will have a chance to fall foward, not absorb a run blitz shot like Matthews delivered in the SB or Ray Lewis breaking Mendenhalls scapula, and he might give them a chance to bounce out something to the outside like he did with dwyer against Denver. Our TEs cannot runblock either, and our wr's have not been very good at this from what I've seen. But someone on the roster has to. It may not be Johnson but... At the very least, we have gotten something from him, and still have the position available to our offense. We might even see Legursky as FB on the goal line or on short yardage. Who knows?

Hey, Rocky Bleier did not blow a ton of guys up. The dude was a football player though. If you can't find a role for a guy like that, then F&&^% blocking all together and bring back the Run and Shoot.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bleir was in a different era and not comparable.

Johnson just clogs up the hole, which is what the defense wants!!!!!!!

Correlation does not imply causation. The offense does well while Johnson is in does not mean that he can block well. The poor showing by the running game is better proof to my point ( which was a response that Johnson was a good FB). That Dwyer and Redman MUST bounce outside because Johnson is clogging the hole is more proof. If the linemen create a hole and Johnson can get to the 2nd level and get in the way then it works. but 2.4 yards per carry is not helping any argument that Johnson helps the running game. He is very good in the passing game which lead to my WCO comment.

At it's base, the WCO is about short passes especially to the RB. Haley's offense is about quick passes which includes the RBs. Will anyone accuse the Steelers of running the WCO? No. But does Haley's basic principles of his offense resemble the WCO principles? Yes.

Green Bay is said to run a WCO but they are way down field because of their talent. It in no way resembles the classic WCO. That is where the Steelers are going.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49729
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see both sides.

I agree that a classic FB wouldnt do a ton for us RIGHT NOW, simply because defenders are getting into the backfield on run plays so quickly it doesnt matter.

However, I agree that all FBs should know how to block. I have no issue with Will Johnson and at least he provides something, but his lack of blocking ability hurts his stock.

At this point, Ill take Will Johnson over David Johnson, though. David Johnson is a ho hum blocker that provides very little to nothing in terms of offensive production. He is a better blocker than Will, but I personally like Will more for Haley's offense.
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
First, and article from Advanced NFL stats on how good the Haley/Ben show was this week.

a FB that can not block in the running game is a smallish TE that is lining up in the backfield. If he can not block well in the running game then why is he in there for the running game? You could complain about Bronco and D.J lining up as FB and being stiff but they hit a hole/player and did not get trucked.

I think he will be good if the Steelers got to more west-coast short passing style but he flat out sucks as a run blocker.


I think your sample size is too small to make this judgement. I've seen him be more than effective on a number of occasions. He's a rookie and has had little experience as an actual fullback. David Johnson was so predictably ineffective in the pass game, was no need to even cover him and was very easy for Defenses to key on tendencies when he was in. Granted I'll take him for now over Pope, but I see a much higher upside in W than D could ever have. Sorry to say because he's injured, but I've been looking forward to the day that we could improve on him at either the TE or FB position. I have always been looking for an HB/FB that could be effective in under & flat routes, and that can also be utilized on any down and situation.

The bigger issue I see is the blocking of tight ends or lack thereof, including Heath (who blocks more and more like Jeckyl & Hyde) and misunderstood assignments etc. Foster, Colon & Pounce, I see a lot of missed assignments.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:
The bigger issue I see is the blocking of tight ends or lack thereof, including Heath (who blocks more and more like Jeckyl & Hyde) and misunderstood assignments etc. Foster, Colon & Pounce, I see a lot of missed assignments.


Agreed.

This team contributes to the other teams cause far too often for my liking.

Even when they win they make it tougher on themselves than it really ought to be just due to dumb, dumb mental mistakes.

Same mistakes over and over, season after season.

Seriously, at this point, when the offense gets the ball in the other teams end of the field who here doesn't just baseline expect a false start/holding/sack sequence to keep points off the board? I know I do.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:


The bigger issue I see is the blocking of tight ends or lack thereof, including Heath (who blocks more and more like Jeckyl & Hyde) and misunderstood assignments etc. Foster, Colon & Pounce, I see a lot of missed assignments.


blocking TEs are a thing of the past. Miller and Saunders ( and even Pope...sometimes) do fine vs LBs and DBs. To expect them to handle a DE all the time is nuts. At best they scrape and get out into a pattern or block down ( which all do well).

If you rally want a blocking TE just do what Noll did and bring in an extra tackle.
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SMashMouthMike


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Correlation does not imply causation. The offense does well while Johnson is in does not mean that he can block well. The poor showing by the running game is better proof to my point


Agree with most of this... but what is the running game's average when he's in there, not just in general?
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SMashMouthMike


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think your sample size is too small to make this judgement. I've seen him be more than effective on a number of occasions. He's a rookie and has had little experience as an actual fullback.


That's what I've seen. Moreover, look at his Return on Investment. No other rookie has done much that I have seen other than maybe Rainey on Returns and Adams against Miller in Denver. Name another rookie that has exceeded expectations relative to their drafted position and salary.

I can not see when he's lined up as te and blocking at the LOS with my DVR. I did see him in the goaline on 2 of our successful Redzone TDs against the JETS. The first was pa to the tailback, Johnson was lead blocking and Heath was wide open for a TD. And I did see him on the other Redman TD kicking A Jets linebacker out as he was in motion. I know his thrown at to catch % is pretty high, or perfect with 2 first downs. Our longest run of the day was 13 yarder in the 1st quarter, Johnson led and kicked out a lb, spun him wide of hole and nearly down to dirt.

His grades are pretty good jebrick, but don't take my word for it, watch the film.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say B. I would give him an A if the steelers had beaten the Broncos. Can't blame him for that loss, but still. They are 1-1, so I just can't give out an A.
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