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After 2 weeks: 1st 2 picks to the D RDE & #2 CB
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LETSGOBROWNIES


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:
DawgSoldier wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Just adding my opinion on the "getting pressure" discussion...

The Browns have as it stands right now a total of 8 sacks, 14 QB hits, and 25 QB pressures.

From an edge rusher (DE) we have 14 Pressures, 4 Hits, and 2 sacks.

From the inside rush (DT) we have 8 Pressures, 5 Hits, and 1 Sack.

From the blitz (LB) we have 2 Pressures, 2 Hits, and 4 Sacks.

I think its safe to say the Browns are getting pressure with just the front four, and they are getting it enough.


I would disagree, being that both Philly and Cinci had long sustained drives throwing the football. Not that I am saying they were horrible they are just not where they need to be. A top rated RDE would do wonders for the front 4 though.


Hey, I've preached the whole RDE thing too. I wanted Perry in the worst way.

I'm just saying, the Browns are getting good pressure. 8 sacks in 2 games. 2nd in the league right now.


Seriously.

2nd in the league in sacks thus far and our pass rush is suspect. Sheesh.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelbot wrote:
LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
kelbot wrote:
Is Usama Young worse than Eric Haag?

Has Buster Skrine ever made a solo tackle?

Why do I miss Sheldon Brown?

After asking myself these questions a lot on Sunday, I feel that FS and CB are the two biggest needs right now.

Fort, Robertson, Gocong, Maiva, can suffice at OLB.

I will also say that the 6 sacks of Dalton were fools gold. Coverage sacks. DQJ getting 3, as the QB spy, should tell us that. He had all day to throw. Sheard has gotten better in the run game, but has not made an impact this year rushing the passer.

Vick has a really bad OLine, that was exposed. Against 2 pretty good tackles (Smith and Whitworth), no edge rush was present. That has to improve. If Sheard can't develop into the force he looked like late last year, DE is a huge priority too.


Where do I start??

Yes. I feel Usama Young is worse than Hagg, so does the coaching staff.

Skrine played well in the first game, when he was playing a role he should be playing (a 4th CB).

You miss Sheldon Brown because he's a solid CB, it's really not that hard to admit.

You think the pass rush is fools gold and that the sacks against the Bengals were coverage sacks, but at the same time think CB and FS are our 2 biggest needs? Kind of a contradiction, no?

DJax got the sacks because of the edge pressure that you said didn't occur. From may view in my living room, the edge pressure forced Dalton to step up right into Jackson. It's especially odd when you consider that both Rucker and Parker (edge rushers) had sacks.


I've seen enough of Haag and Young to know they are not long term answers. And I concede that all NFL coaches know more than I do. But I also saw Scott Fujita play in place of LJ Fort.

I like Skrine. And you say "he played well as the 4th CB". So mentioning drafting someone to be, lets say, the #2CB (you know, the title of the thread) is out of line, somehow? ok.

Yes I do miss Sheldon Brown. He is a good corner. But he is also targeted frequently and is not a long term answer at #2 CB (again, see the title of the thread).

Dalton held the ball way too long. But regardless, the edge rushers you called out are a 34 year old on a 1yr deal and a FA with 8 sacks in 6 years. The best pass rusher on the team, has yet to make an impact. So, again, I'm out of bounds for saying a pass rusher is an area of need.

I won't even get into the sacks do not equal consistent pressure argument.

I guess acknowledging that an 0-2 team thats given up 300+ pass yards in both games, and is coming off a 4-12 season, could use upgrades at multiple positions is blasphemy of some sort?


I have no problem with wanting to add young talent to any position on the D, especially manned by older guys, but some of the points you were making were simply incorrect.

Skrine is a solid #4 right now. By next year he may very well be worthy of a starting gig. You asked if he ever made a solo tackle. Yes, he has. He's looked good in every game he's played sans Sunday....as a first time starter....against AJ Green....on the road.

Our DL, despite the opinions of some, has been effective. This can be backed up by both subjective and objective points. Are those guys older? Yes. But they have played very well thus far.

If you want to say we should replacements due to age fine, but these guys are not playing poorly.

Also, to the 300 yards passing in both games, you realize it took Vick 60 attempts to do so and Dalton did it with our top 2 CB's out? Kinda relevant when evaluating the numbers, no?

As far as being 'out of bounds' about wanting a pass rusher, I never said anything of the sort. A team can never have enough good pass rushers. I simply said the guys we have now are playing quite well and were in any way the issue you described them in your original post.
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our pass rush is suspect.

Most of the 6 sacks against Dalton were achieved after he went through his full progressions and then decided to run. DQ had 3 of them just behind the LOS.

On the other 25 dropbacks, Dalton had enough time to pick the defense apart with relative ease.

The stats in this case are very much deceiving.
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ReggieCamp


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Our pass rush is suspect.

Most of the 6 sacks against Dalton were achieved after he went through his full progressions and then decided to run. DQ had 3 of them just behind the LOS.

On the other 25 dropbacks, Dalton had enough time to pick the defense apart with relative ease.

The stats in this case are very much deceiving.

I agree. Dalton had a very clean pocket for much of the day. Part of a good pass rush is making the QB feel uncomfortable, even when the D doesn't lay a hand on him. We didn't do that. At least not enough.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReggieCamp wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Our pass rush is suspect.

Most of the 6 sacks against Dalton were achieved after he went through his full progressions and then decided to run. DQ had 3 of them just behind the LOS.

On the other 25 dropbacks, Dalton had enough time to pick the defense apart with relative ease.

The stats in this case are very much deceiving.

I agree. Dalton had a very clean pocket for much of the day. Part of a good pass rush is making the QB feel uncomfortable, even when the D doesn't lay a hand on him. We didn't do that. At least not enough.


So, other than the SIX sacks, Dalton had a clean pocket. Fair enough. I'll give you that for the sake of discussion.

How about the first game? Wouldn't it be fair to say the pass rush was awfully effective? Vick was flushed from the pocket and rattled pretty much the entire game.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but after 2 games, 8 sacks and multiple hits and hurries, I just can't buy into the fact that our pass rush hasn't been good enough.

Will it continue? Who knows. But thus far these guys have done their job IMO.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^

Especially when you consider we've been without Benard, Parker, Taylor, and Winn for portions/all of the first 2 games.
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ReggieCamp


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Our pass rush is suspect.

Most of the 6 sacks against Dalton were achieved after he went through his full progressions and then decided to run. DQ had 3 of them just behind the LOS.

On the other 25 dropbacks, Dalton had enough time to pick the defense apart with relative ease.

The stats in this case are very much deceiving.

I agree. Dalton had a very clean pocket for much of the day. Part of a good pass rush is making the QB feel uncomfortable, even when the D doesn't lay a hand on him. We didn't do that. At least not enough.


So, other than the SIX sacks, Dalton had a clean pocket. Fair enough. I'll give you that for the sake of discussion.

How about the first game? Wouldn't it be fair to say the pass rush was awfully effective? Vick was flushed from the pocket and rattled pretty much the entire game.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but after 2 games, 8 sacks and multiple hits and hurries, I just can't buy into the fact that our pass rush hasn't been good enough.

Will it continue? Who knows. But thus far these guys have done their job IMO.

Even on most of those sacks, Dalton had time. It's not like he was rushed. He just held the ball too long, and on 3 occasions, D'Qwell made the right call by delaying his pass rush. Great plays by D'Qwell, but it's not indicative of a good pass rush.

Against the Eagles, yes, we were better, but even then, we blitzed a lot. Vick also held the ball too long on several occasions, but he always does that.

I'm loving the fact that we're getting some sacks, but we are definitely not getting consistent pressure on the QB. At least not yet.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReggieCamp wrote:
LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Our pass rush is suspect.

Most of the 6 sacks against Dalton were achieved after he went through his full progressions and then decided to run. DQ had 3 of them just behind the LOS.

On the other 25 dropbacks, Dalton had enough time to pick the defense apart with relative ease.

The stats in this case are very much deceiving.

I agree. Dalton had a very clean pocket for much of the day. Part of a good pass rush is making the QB feel uncomfortable, even when the D doesn't lay a hand on him. We didn't do that. At least not enough.


So, other than the SIX sacks, Dalton had a clean pocket. Fair enough. I'll give you that for the sake of discussion.

How about the first game? Wouldn't it be fair to say the pass rush was awfully effective? Vick was flushed from the pocket and rattled pretty much the entire game.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but after 2 games, 8 sacks and multiple hits and hurries, I just can't buy into the fact that our pass rush hasn't been good enough.

Will it continue? Who knows. But thus far these guys have done their job IMO.

Even on most of those sacks, Dalton had time. It's not like he was rushed. He just held the ball too long, and on 3 occasions, D'Qwell made the right call by delaying his pass rush. Great plays by D'Qwell, but it's not indicative of a good pass rush.

Against the Eagles, yes, we were better, but even then, we blitzed a lot. Vick also held the ball too long on several occasions, but he always does that.

I'm loving the fact that we're getting some sacks, but we are definitely not getting consistent pressure on the QB. At least not yet.


What's wrong with blitzing? That's how most teams generate a pass rush.

There are a handful of teams, at best, in the league who can consistently get pressure out their 4 man front. Lions, Broncos, Giants?

3-4 teams are almost always blitzing for pressure as that's the design of the scheme.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not saying our pass rush is unstoppable, simply that these guys have played pretty well thus far.

Of course Dalton had time to throw the ball, it's not like a defense will get pressure every play.

I think the numbers more than speak for themselves. Agree to disagree I suppose.
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ReggieCamp


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
Not saying our pass rush is unstoppable, simply that these guys have played pretty well thus far.

Of course Dalton had time to throw the ball, it's not like a defense will get pressure every play.

I think the numbers more than speak for themselves. Agree to disagree I suppose.

We more or less agree. Our pass rush is improved from last year. I was just disappointed for almost all of the 2nd half in the Bengals game. We didn't disrupt Dalton very often.

On a related note, I've liked the look of Juqua Parker. Even at his age, he's very quick off the edge. I hope his injury is not serious. You could definitely tell the difference when he wasn't out there.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReggieCamp wrote:
LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
Not saying our pass rush is unstoppable, simply that these guys have played pretty well thus far.

Of course Dalton had time to throw the ball, it's not like a defense will get pressure every play.

I think the numbers more than speak for themselves. Agree to disagree I suppose.

We more or less agree. Our pass rush is improved from last year. I was just disappointed for almost all of the 2nd half in the Bengals game. We didn't disrupt Dalton very often.

On a related note, I've liked the look of Juqua Parker. Even at his age, he's very quick off the edge. I hope his injury is not serious. You could definitely tell the difference when he wasn't out there.


I agree.

I remember a stat someone posted on here when we signed him in the spring about him having a few more pressures than Jayme Mitchell last season despite playing like a third of the snaps.

He's certainly shown the ability to come in and be a situation pass rusher at the very least.

Savy signing by Heckert.
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DawgSoldier


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But how nice would it be to have a player opposing OC's had to game plan for ala dwight freeny.
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kelbot


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sack numbers and consistent pressure are not tied together. Julius Peppers is averaging 10 sacks a year with Chicago. But is in the backfield on nearly every play and makes a huge impact. Babin, Cole, Allen, etc..put up the numbers, but Peppers is the more disruptive force. Clay Matthews had 6 sacks last year. There are more examples.

Parker has been the Browns best pass rusher this year. But he is 34, hurt, and in the last year of his deal. Sheard is a 2nd year LE who showed flashes. Rucker was brought in to stop the run. A young RDE who can beat one on one blocks is a need.

As is CB, FS, and OLB. How you prioritize them is open for debate, but those areas could all use personnel upgrades.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are debating as if I said I was against drafting a DE, I'm not.

Like you guys, it's probably the direction I'm hoping they go with their first pick. I do however think they can trade back and still get a very good player.

What I'm debating is the play of the guys on our current roster. It's been very good thus far.

I'd like to add another DE, maybe 2. I'd like to see a CB at some point and a FS as well.
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KamTrus20


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
You guys are debating as if I said I was against drafting a DE, I'm not.

Like you guys, it's probably the direction I'm hoping they go with their first pick. I do however think they can trade back and still get a very good player.

What I'm debating is the play of the guys on our current roster. It's been very good thus far.

I'd like to add another DE, maybe 2. I'd like to see a CB at some point and a FS as well.


Blockbuster with Atlanta again! They move up for Marcus Lattimore since Turner is the worst starting RB in the league now, and we get to the back of round one for an athletic guy with high upside Dion Jordan. Laughing
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