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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5370
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
They are basically a glorified expansion team at this stage.


I never expected much from this team but the concern i have is the number of old starters we have. What exactly are we trying to accomplish this season? I don't see what we're building with so many stopgap players on the roster.


I think this season is about getting rid of the dead weight and big salaries and putting the McK/Allen stamp on the franchise. We dumped a lot of large contracts and had to regroup with a lot of stop gaps for this year. Hence the abnormally large amount of 1 year deals we have.


This.

The team is in a transition mode right now. Reggie and Allen are figuring out the best moves for the team and I honestly like that they are taking this first year to do that. Sure, they could have cut all the old players this offseason and started over, but thats not a smart way to run a team. Reggie cut some players to free up money, resigned some guys, had a decent draft, etc. This year will give them a very good idea of where this team is and what they need to do to move forward.
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La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5370
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
They are basically a glorified expansion team at this stage.


I never expected much from this team but the concern i have is the number of old starters we have. What exactly are we trying to accomplish this season? I don't see what we're building with so many stopgap players on the roster.


Building a new culture is the main aspect. Disciple, accountability, etc. in the post Davis era.

Rebuilding the roster will take some time seeing as the team was strapped with cap issues and limited draft picks.

IMO, the rebuilding starts with issuing a new era of how things will be ran day to day and what is expected of each player. McKenzie went out and found some stopgap players to compete to see if they will be a part of the future in Oakland.


+1

Despite how the term sounds, "rebuilding" doesnt mean cutting every aging player and starting all your young, inexperienced guys. It means cutting ties with large contracts-especially players who's play didnt coorilate with their pay (Routt, Wimbley to some degree). It means changing the way things are done (drafting BPA, solid high character guys rather than reaching for projects). It means finding a HC that the GM has faith in and will actually keep around for more than one year. Just as rebuilding takes more than one year to finish, you wont see all of the changes taking place in year one. The first moves have been made, but we arent even close to finished with the process.
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La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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Burgesskills


Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1114
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not sure if you're an A's fan or if you follow Major League Baseball at all, but that is a straight up ballpark description of the A's coming into the season... Only your description of the Raiders makes what people said about the A's seem like we're a lock to win it all. It was that bad for the A's.

Experts had the A's pre-ranked dead last in the American League and most thought they'd lose 100+ games this year. Even Billy Beane admitted that although talented, he was building for the future. They traded/lost arguably their 3 best pitchers and 3 best hitters from the previous season. And have you checked the standings 6 months later? The A's lead the wild card and have the second best record in the entire AL. On the lowest payroll in the AL... Do you really believe that the Raiders have to overcome greater odds than that? I hope not.

Reggie McKenzie knows there's talent on this team. Every Raiders fan should know that. What's so crazy to think that it could all come together to just win more games than they lose? That may be all it takes to make the playoffs as a wild card team. Based on last year (since that is mainly what we're basing our predictions on for this season), our healthy offense with McFadden and Palmer would be enough to contend for the division given that the defense improves a little under the new scheme (what could be worse than the old one?). Please enlighten me as to what's so hard to grasp about winning 9 games this year?



I am a huge baseball fan and I'm a die hard Chicago White Sox fan. Bo Jackson was my favorite player and when the Sox signed him after he lost his real hip, I clung on to the South siders.

Please don't compare this team to the A's in MLB. There is continuity there and Billy Beane is an absolute genius.

There are plenty of things that I am excited about on this team. I like McKenzie and I think Dennis Allen will be a great defense. We have great building blocks on this team, but it's going to take a few years for this team to contend.

We should beat Miami, but I'm not too confident that beating Pittsburgh and Denver is manageable. There is a chance we could start 1-3.

Teams are going to continue to key on McFadden and stack the box. Until Palmer takes shots and stretches the field with deep smart accurate throws, he won't beat many teams.

I just hope they start making smarter plays and cut out the mistakes.
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Burgesskills


Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Stafford
Ryan
Brees
Rivers
Manning X2
Romo
Brady
Flacco
shaubb
Rodgers
Big Ben
Cam Newton
Vick
RG3


It might be easier to name the QB's I would take Palmer over:

Tennahel (spelling is way off)
Fitzpatrick
Weeden
Gabbert
Cassel
Ponder


Not too many. Yes I would take Luck, Freeman, Sanchez, Wilson, even Jay Cutler who I can't stand.

Palmer was one of my favorites while a Bengal before the ACL tear. He's never been the same since. He's older now and throws too many picks or he does what he did Monday dink and dump all night because he was afraid to force the ball, to his credit the receiving corpse was a mess. Moore is still hurting, Ford lost for season, Streater and Criner are just like Hagan big, but a little slow. DHB and Moore need to stay healthy.

I want to be wrong about every pessimistic remark I have made, but have a feeling I'm not.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:

Palmer was one of my favorites while a Bengal before the ACL tear. He's never been the same since. He's older now and throws too many picks or he does what he did Monday dink and dump all night because he was afraid to force the ball, to his credit the receiving corpse was a mess. Moore is still hurting, Ford lost for season, Streater and Criner are just like Hagan big, but a little slow. DHB and Moore need to stay healthy.

I want to be wrong about every pessimistic remark I have made, but have a feeling I'm not.


This is a first, I don't believe I have ever heard anyone describe Palmer as a dink and dunk QB. This is the McClain argument beginning all over again. It's too early to tell but quite possibly Palmer was following the progression as dictated by the game plan as I have never seen Palmer play so close to the vest.

Congrats, Campbell-apologists! You got what you wanted. Jason Campbell-type numbers with a Peyton-esque pricetag. We're MUCH better off now.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Burgesskills


Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When did I say anything about Jason Campbell? I'm a Campbell apologist because I don't think Carson Palmer puts us in the position to be a contender?

Yes Palmer was dinking and dumping short passes all night. He completed a few deep balls some on target, most off target.

If you're going to come at me, don't come at me with things that make no sense.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
When did I say anything about Jason Campbell? I'm a Campbell apologist because I don't think Carson Palmer puts us in the position to be a contender?

Yes Palmer was dinking and dumping short passes all night. He completed a few deep balls some on target, most off target.

If you're going to come at me, don't come at me with things that make no sense.


I'm not coming at you, nor am I suggesting you're a Jason Campbell apologist. What I am suggesting is that Palmer is perhaps playing more conservatively as dictated by the gameplan and it will take a few games to determine if this is the case.

In addition, citing the irony of Palmer-haters spending an entire off-season criticizing Palmer for being a gunslinger are they happy with what they see considering Palmer finished with 94.2 passer rating.

That is all . . . .
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 14962
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
Palooka you always make me laugh, when the best things you could say about your starting QB is he's a veteran and he's serviceable, you know you're in trouble.


I can say plenty good about Palmer. He's smart, leads well and is a good teammate. And what is the alternative? Oh right, there isn't one. I'd rather have Palmer than 15 of the other starters in the NFL.



Stafford
Ryan
Brees
Rivers
Manning X2
Romo
Brady
Flacco
shaubb
Rodgers
Big Ben
Cam Newton
Vick
RG3

Thats 15 i would rather have than Palmer right there. And Jay Cutler and Andrew Luck can also be argue of who I would want over Palmer at this point.


id add

alex smith
andy dalton
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 14962
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
When did I say anything about Jason Campbell? I'm a Campbell apologist because I don't think Carson Palmer puts us in the position to be a contender?

Yes Palmer was dinking and dumping short passes all night. He completed a few deep balls some on target, most off target.

If you're going to come at me, don't come at me with things that make no sense.


I'm not coming at you, nor am I suggesting you're a Jason Campbell apologist. What I am suggesting is that Palmer is perhaps playing more conservatively as dictated by the gameplan and it will take a few games to determine if this is the case.

In addition, citing the irony of Palmer-haters spending an entire off-season criticizing Palmer for being a gunslinger are they happy with what they see considering Palmer finished with 94.2 passer rating.

That is all . . . .


still no tds

palmer is a stat machine but for all his attempts his td #s are low.

he can throw 20 ints as long as he trows 40 tds im cool

whens the last game cp threw 2x's or more tds to his ints?

honestly i dont care about yards or rating i just care about td to int ratio
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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NickButera


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Location: Nevada
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:


still no tds

palmer is a stat machine but for all his attempts his td #s are low.

he can throw 20 ints as long as he trows 40 tds im cool

whens the last game cp threw 2x's or more tds to his ints?

honestly i dont care about yards or rating i just care about td to int ratio


You must be a HUGE Tebow fan then. Doesn't get very many yards, and his rating is beyond low..... but his TD to INT ratio over the last two years is 3:1 (I included rushing TD's because, a TD is a TD. 29 TD's to 9 INT's)
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Bah-Weep-Granah-Weep-Nini-Bong

My short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5370
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
When did I say anything about Jason Campbell? I'm a Campbell apologist because I don't think Carson Palmer puts us in the position to be a contender?

Yes Palmer was dinking and dumping short passes all night. He completed a few deep balls some on target, most off target.

If you're going to come at me, don't come at me with things that make no sense.


Palmer's completion percentage to everyone besides McFadden was 68% Monday night- far from off target.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5370
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickButera wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:


still no tds

palmer is a stat machine but for all his attempts his td #s are low.

he can throw 20 ints as long as he trows 40 tds im cool

whens the last game cp threw 2x's or more tds to his ints?

honestly i dont care about yards or rating i just care about td to int ratio


You must be a HUGE Tebow fan then. Doesn't get very many yards, and his rating is beyond low..... but his TD to INT ratio over the last two years is 3:1 (I included rushing TD's because, a TD is a TD. 29 TD's to 9 INT's)


Laughing

Besides, everything in the NFL is situation-based. A QB may have low TD totals because he isn't an efficient QB, or because his coach calls for run plays in the red zone, or his WRs don't get open enough in the red zone, or his offensive line doesn't hold up, blah blah blah. It goes on and on. It doesn't make him a bad QB just because he has X amount of attempts and X amount of TDs.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 14962
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickButera wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:


still no tds

palmer is a stat machine but for all his attempts his td #s are low.

he can throw 20 ints as long as he trows 40 tds im cool

whens the last game cp threw 2x's or more tds to his ints?

honestly i dont care about yards or rating i just care about td to int ratio


You must be a HUGE Tebow fan then. Doesn't get very many yards, and his rating is beyond low..... but his TD to INT ratio over the last two years is 3:1 (I included rushing TD's because, a TD is a TD. 29 TD's to 9 INT's)


he beat cp/us
and he beat pitt in a playoff game
your 30+yrold friend cp has never won a playoff game

i hate tbo but he knocked us out of the playoffs last year. jus sayin
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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Roninho


Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 1653
Location: The Netherlands
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
Are you guys all new to the world?

Aren't you the same guys who would moan about D-Mac during the zone blocking schemes??

Yes Palmer is our biggest problem, because he is the field general.

I don't think Denver is much more talented than the Raiders, they are an older Tim, but Manning will lead them to the division title, just like he did in Indy for years. Palmer is long at the tooth and unreliable.

I didn't say this team wasn't talented, never said it once. I said our players aren't very bright and that's the truth.

If this team wins more than 8 games, which it won't allow you guys to change my handle and make post whatever you want as far as a sig.

Yeah no kidding the Chargers were covering the deep ball on 3rd and 3, but still it was stupid all around.

What did I say that's not true? McFadden doesn't have great vision. He was good at Arkansas as run outside back or on stretch plays, but in the NFL defenders are just as fast. He needs space created for him by his line and we aren't running that kind of scheme we are running the zone blocking scheme which relies on the RB looking for openings and cutting in to the lanes, if D-Mac stays healthy he will have a good year overall, but not the type of year Arian Foster will have in the same offense.

You guys can get made and hyped all you want, at the end of the year this team will be exactly what I stated.


Denver has 2 premier pass rushers on their defense and 2 cover CBs. They have more game changing talent on that side of the ball.
Exactly. I dont think we are totally lacking talent at d, just no difference makers. Add 2 special players on this D and we look totally different.

The challenge for Reggie will be to find those difference makers and our franchise qb.
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Roninho


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
They are basically a glorified expansion team at this stage.


I never expected much from this team but the concern i have is the number of old starters we have. What exactly are we trying to accomplish this season? I don't see what we're building with so many stopgap players on the roster.


Exactly, the Raiders have an identity crisis. Right now the FO is middling. Good teams KNOW what they are. Fans aren't as dumb as they pretend to be. McKenzie should have just said "This is a .500 club but the books are screwed. For the long-term success of the club we must clean up the books."

IF this team looks non-competitive, then rip off the bandaide and get it over with. Keep in mind folks, McKenzie is a Ted Thompson disciple, TT almost got whacked before he turned the team around and I said when he got hired that people would be calling for Reggie's head just before he turned the team around.
And what could mckenzie have done more this offseason? No cap, veteran players with untradeable contracts and no picks. Removing the band aide isnt going to work if you don't have the opportunity to land young talent to groom.
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