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Andy, all is forgiven! :D (Andy watch thread)
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milksteak


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i actually kind of looked at this in a positive way. As the OP said, we have a game or two like this every year, ive just accepted it, but i think we now finally have a good enough defense to win these ones. half-FULL guys. yay for demeco
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Broadway Joe


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BirdsFan06050 wrote:
Eagles_808 wrote:
https://twitter.com/Jeff_McLane/
Quote:
After watching tape Reid said that lopsided pass-run ratio "wasn't as bad as I thought."


Rolling Eyes


That annoys me for sure. Nevertheless, I'm not going to overreact after a single game like the OP.

Dont' get me wrong though, the play-calling was equally as worrying as Vick's poor effort. I expect more from him, and I know he does too. He's always saying the right things after games, during interviews, etc. but I wonder if all this talk about him having to ease up is affecting his mindset and approach.


BirdsFan06050 wrote:
Eagles_808 wrote:
https://twitter.com/Jeff_McLane/
Quote:
After watching tape Reid said that lopsided pass-run ratio "wasn't as bad as I thought."


Rolling Eyes


That annoys me for sure. Nevertheless, I'm not going to overreact after a single game like the OP.


I don't get it, how many years do I have to see the same mistakes and tolerate it? I swear people is so afraid to be associated with the stereotype of the Eagles Fan that we don't call out things when they deserve to be. I remember people defended McDermott when he was clearly a poor Defensive Coordinator. It's not like looking at just the good things from your team makes you somewhat a better fan or more knowledgeable.

I get what Nabbs says that a win is a win and it might be a blessing in disguise and maybe having this type of crappy performance early on can makes us correct the mistakes for the season (and this season only, because we will see a game like this again next season). But we have the talent do much more, that fact that we don't is mainly the coaches fault. We have grown to accept this inconsistency.

About the play-calling, I really doubt MM is solely to blame with his playcalling because as a control freak as Andy is, I don't think he will delegate the offense completely, besides pass-run ratio has been a problem even before MM got here. And even if he does why Andy tolerates such incompetence for so long?

It's not like I want us to do bad and say "I told you so", hell nothing would make me happier than to be proved completely wrong and Andy gets his ring and therefore on his way to Canton. But after 13 seasons with this guy as a coach and seeing the same mistakes over and over even with a completely different team makes me believe it will not happen.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We win games man, that's why Andy Reid is in a perpetual hot seat but you can't really fire him.

He makes bad mistakes, but he's also one of the best coaches in the league. How do you balance that?

Yes, his mistakes hold us back. And they don't seem to be going away.

But his positive aspects push us forward as well, and until those go away, then he's not worth firing.

If Andy were fired, how long do you think he would be unemployed? 15 seconds? And there's a reason for that.

And while frustrations are legitimate, I think the one positive is that we won this game. Does that sound obvious? Maybe, but I think people aren't looking deep enough into what a win here means.

We played terrible. No question. But we won.

"Oh, but we played the BROWNS."

Yes, that is fact. But we've had equally as bad games and we usually lose them. But we didn't. That is significant, that we can play as bad as we did (no team should throw 4 interceptions, miss a field goal, fumble the ball) and still win.

In the past we would have let guys like Brandon Weeden have a breakout game and embarrass us. But we didn't.

In fact, one of the largest criticisms about Andy Reid is that his teams rarely ever have 4th quarter comebacks. We had that too, and would that not be considered a change?

A change from typically losing a game like that, to winning it anyways?

And a lot of people are saying our defense has improved. Mark Schlereth was commenting on how well the Eagles tackled, and how nobody EVER says that about recent Eagles defenses.

Isn't that an improvement this Eagles team made?

And how about the Andy Reid comments about the lopsided playcalling? Yes, he said he felt it wasn't "as bad", but when was the last time he even acknowledged at all that his playcalling might be... lopsided?

This is the first time I've ever heard Andy Reid question the balance of his own offense, which means he knows it's an issue. This is significant as well.

The plus sides to Andy Reid?
+ Wins games
+ Players coach (motivated through the winter)
+ Attracts strong free agents (Nnamdi, Babin, Peters, TO, Kearse, the list goes on)
+ Attracts strong coaches (Mudd, Washburn, Bowles, etc.)
+ Great management

And his negatives?
+ Lopsided playcalling
+ Time outs
+ Challenges

You can add to that, but I can guarantee you can't make a convincing argument that Reid's negatives outweigh the positives (or Reid himself).

And I know this is getting long, but let's look at passing stats.

Michael Vick did pass a lot in this game. In fact, he had the most attempts in the league this week. Understanding the inherently flawed nature of just looking at numbers, we can still hypothesize and make educated inferences and interpretations.

The attempts stats (top 6) goes as follows:

Vick - 56 (leader)
Brees - 52
Stafford - 48
Palmer - 46
Luck - 45
Rodgers - 44

Do you know which of the highest attempting passers won their games?

Vick and Stafford, and they were close and ugly games (Stafford 1 TD and 3 INT).

Among the top 15 QBs who threw the most attempts last week only 3 of them won.

17 QBs threw more than or exactly 32 times last week.
3 of them won those games.

13 QBs threw for 31 times or less, and 12 of them won their games.

***Some QBs were injured and therefore omitted.


Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing. That skewed the numbers more than normal. Had the players gotten off to a better start (no picks, Shady's fumble) then I doubt Vick would have thrown for as much.

We were playing catch-up, and when you're losing or about to lose, most teams abandon the run.
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PowerElite


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:

Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing. That skewed the numbers more than normal. Had the players gotten off to a better start (no picks, Shady's fumble) then I doubt Vick would have thrown for as much.

We were playing catch-up, and when you're losing or about to lose, most teams abandon the run.


The Eagles had 14 called runs in the 2nd half excluding kneel downs and 9 called runs in the 1st half...
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Hockey5djh


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
And I know this is getting long, but let's look at passing stats.

Michael Vick did pass a lot in this game. In fact, he had the most attempts in the league this week. Understanding the inherently flawed nature of just looking at numbers, we can still hypothesize and make educated inferences and interpretations.

The attempts stats (top 6) goes as follows:

Vick - 56 (leader)
Brees - 52
Stafford - 48
Palmer - 46
Luck - 45
Rodgers - 44

Do you know which of the highest attempting passers won their games?

Vick and Stafford, and they were close and ugly games (Stafford 1 TD and 3 INT).

Among the top 15 QBs who threw the most attempts last week only 3 of them won.

17 QBs threw more than or exactly 32 times last week.
3 of them won those games.

13 QBs threw for 31 times or less, and 12 of them won their games.

***Some QBs were injured and therefore omitted.


Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing. That skewed the numbers more than normal. Had the players gotten off to a better start (no picks, Shady's fumble) then I doubt Vick would have thrown for as much.

We were playing catch-up, and when you're losing or about to lose, most teams abandon the run.


I guess the fact that teams throw a lot more when they are behind was lost in this argument. Stafford was playing from behind most of the game and lead the team to a comeback win. The Eagles/Vick on the otherhand was playing with a tie/lead for a majority of the game and they didn't fall behind and become desperate until partway into the 4th quarter.

Despite having a lead we(Andy/Marty?) still decided we would rather throw the ball twice as much as we ran it against the team with the 2nd best pass defense in the league last year. This resulted in a lot of short drives leaving it up to the defense to bail out our offense instead of giving Shady the rock and controlling the game/clock.
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Broadway Joe


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
We win games man, that's why Andy Reid is in a perpetual hot seat but you can't really fire him.

He makes bad mistakes, but he's also one of the best coaches in the league. How do you balance that?

Yes, his mistakes hold us back. And they don't seem to be going away.

But his positive aspects push us forward as well, and until those go away, then he's not worth firing.

If Andy were fired, how long do you think he would be unemployed? 15 seconds? And there's a reason for that.

And while frustrations are legitimate, I think the one positive is that we won this game. Does that sound obvious? Maybe, but I think people aren't looking deep enough into what a win here means.

We played terrible. No question. But we won.

"Oh, but we played the BROWNS."

Yes, that is fact. But we've had equally as bad games and we usually lose them. But we didn't. That is significant, that we can play as bad as we did (no team should throw 4 interceptions, miss a field goal, fumble the ball) and still win.

In the past we would have let guys like Brandon Weeden have a breakout game and embarrass us. But we didn't.

In fact, one of the largest criticisms about Andy Reid is that his teams rarely ever have 4th quarter comebacks. We had that too, and would that not be considered a change?

A change from typically losing a game like that, to winning it anyways?

And a lot of people are saying our defense has improved. Mark Schlereth was commenting on how well the Eagles tackled, and how nobody EVER says that about recent Eagles defenses.

Isn't that an improvement this Eagles team made?

And how about the Andy Reid comments about the lopsided playcalling? Yes, he said he felt it wasn't "as bad", but when was the last time he even acknowledged at all that his playcalling might be... lopsided?

This is the first time I've ever heard Andy Reid question the balance of his own offense, which means he knows it's an issue. This is significant as well.

The plus sides to Andy Reid?
+ Wins games
+ Players coach (motivated through the winter)
+ Attracts strong free agents (Nnamdi, Babin, Peters, TO, Kearse, the list goes on)
+ Attracts strong coaches (Mudd, Washburn, Bowles, etc.)
+ Great management

And his negatives?
+ Lopsided playcalling
+ Time outs
+ Challenges

You can add to that, but I can guarantee you can't make a convincing argument that Reid's negatives outweigh the positives (or Reid himself).

And I know this is getting long, but let's look at passing stats.

Michael Vick did pass a lot in this game. In fact, he had the most attempts in the league this week. Understanding the inherently flawed nature of just looking at numbers, we can still hypothesize and make educated inferences and interpretations.

The attempts stats (top 6) goes as follows:

Vick - 56 (leader)
Brees - 52
Stafford - 48
Palmer - 46
Luck - 45
Rodgers - 44

Do you know which of the highest attempting passers won their games?

Vick and Stafford, and they were close and ugly games (Stafford 1 TD and 3 INT).

Among the top 15 QBs who threw the most attempts last week only 3 of them won.

17 QBs threw more than or exactly 32 times last week.
3 of them won those games.

13 QBs threw for 31 times or less, and 12 of them won their games.

***Some QBs were injured and therefore omitted.


Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing. That skewed the numbers more than normal. Had the players gotten off to a better start (no picks, Shady's fumble) then I doubt Vick would have thrown for as much.

We were playing catch-up, and when you're losing or about to lose, most teams abandon the run.


I agree that Andy is a good coach that would last unemployed as long as he wants. He could take the Rams and turn them around in two seasons. That's why he's lasted so much with us.

The problem with him is that he has too much power to make for his flaws, the same he refuses to correct. Less capable coaches have won it big but they have someone or something who makes up for his shortcomings.

If this was Andy's 5th or even 8th year I would be all for retaining him, but at some point you have to acknowledge the guy will never change and we will be watching the same season over and over, like we've been doing for the last couple of games. In the list of pros and cons you forgot to mention "Inability to learn from past mistakes and refusal to adjust", which might not look as much but it has been the difference between potential and results for us.

Maybe if we lucked into a Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers we could get away with his style, but because we are always competitive chances are it is never going to happen.

You say we passed so much because we were losing, but that's just not true. We were losing for like half a quarter at most and yet we forgot the run the ball, we were tied and had the lead for most of the first half and Andy seems to forget the game is 60 minutes long so we just ran the ball 9 times. That's just nonsense.

Of the QBs you mentioned. How many of them were passing just because a coach's whim? Maybe just the Saints and they were losing for far more time than us. Passing 50+ times to what was the 2nd best pass defense and 30th run defense is just complete stubbornness and the quintessential example of Andy's refusal to adapt.

As I said, we are stuck with a coach who is not bad enough to be fired and his inability to adapt will never get him over the hump. Maybe I'm wrong a part of me wants to believe last year success running the ball will be a big part of this year, but if history is an indicator, we will just be seeing the same product.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerElite wrote:
Phire wrote:

Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing. That skewed the numbers more than normal. Had the players gotten off to a better start (no picks, Shady's fumble) then I doubt Vick would have thrown for as much.

We were playing catch-up, and when you're losing or about to lose, most teams abandon the run.


The Eagles had 14 called runs in the 2nd half excluding kneel downs and 9 called runs in the 1st half...


And? It's no secret the Eagles built their lead through the pass as well. And the Eagles had 10 runs in the first half (Jackson had one).

I don't see the big discrepancy between 14 and 10 especially when Shady fumbled on his first carry.

And if we hold your point to be true, isn't that yet another example just from one game that Andy showed a willingness to adjust his offense during half-time? Bravo!
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Phire


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hockey5djh wrote:
Phire wrote:
And I know this is getting long, but let's look at passing stats.

Michael Vick did pass a lot in this game. In fact, he had the most attempts in the league this week. Understanding the inherently flawed nature of just looking at numbers, we can still hypothesize and make educated inferences and interpretations.

The attempts stats (top 6) goes as follows:

Vick - 56 (leader)
Brees - 52
Stafford - 48
Palmer - 46
Luck - 45
Rodgers - 44

Do you know which of the highest attempting passers won their games?

Vick and Stafford, and they were close and ugly games (Stafford 1 TD and 3 INT).

Among the top 15 QBs who threw the most attempts last week only 3 of them won.

17 QBs threw more than or exactly 32 times last week.
3 of them won those games.

13 QBs threw for 31 times or less, and 12 of them won their games.

***Some QBs were injured and therefore omitted.


Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing. That skewed the numbers more than normal. Had the players gotten off to a better start (no picks, Shady's fumble) then I doubt Vick would have thrown for as much.

We were playing catch-up, and when you're losing or about to lose, most teams abandon the run.


I guess the fact that teams throw a lot more when they are behind was lost in this argument. Stafford was playing from behind most of the game and lead the team to a comeback win. The Eagles/Vick on the otherhand was playing with a tie/lead for a majority of the game and they didn't fall behind and become desperate until partway into the 4th quarter.

Despite having a lead we(Andy/Marty?) still decided we would rather throw the ball twice as much as we ran it against the team with the 2nd best pass defense in the league last year. This resulted in a lot of short drives leaving it up to the defense to bail out our offense instead of giving Shady the rock and controlling the game/clock.


You make good points.

I would attribute that to our team's general philosophy that you build a lead through the pass.

Also as PE pointed out, the Eagles actually committed more to the run in the second half, interpret that as you wish.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broadway Joe wrote:
As I said, we are stuck with a coach who is not bad enough to be fired and his inability to adapt will never get him over the hump. Maybe I'm wrong a part of me wants to believe last year success running the ball will be a big part of this year, but if history is an indicator, we will just be seeing the same product.


I don't mean to PE you and pick out only a fragment of your argument (I read your entire post closely) but I think we're actually not too far from a similar line of thinking.

Maybe Andy is poised for some philosophical change, but I think that's going to be the predominant narrative throughout this season.

Andy has his team. His defensive coordinator is ready. All the major players on our team have their contracts. No distractions, no reliance on really young guys.

The defining factor is whether Andy can correct his wrongs or not.

We all want to see more runs, but there is no guarantee that happens.

I just want to point out that we were 2-2 in the redzone, an issue that was prevalent a few years ago, hopefully that is no longer the case, and if our redzone offense is decent this year, it's proof that Andy's ability to correct problems still has a heartbeat.
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PowerElite


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerElite wrote:
Phire wrote:

Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing.


The Eagles had 14 called runs in the 2nd half excluding kneel downs and 9 called runs in the 1st half...


The Eagles were leading after the 1st half...
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Phire


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerElite wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
Phire wrote:

Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing.


The Eagles had 14 called runs in the 2nd half excluding kneel downs and 9 called runs in the 1st half...


The Eagles were leading after the 1st half...


The real question is where was Reggie Brown while all this was happening?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we're at it:

Scott Van Pelt (about 10 seconds ago)

Quote:
more than 72% of offense this week came through the air, most in the history of the NFL for week 1.

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PowerElite


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
Phire wrote:

Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing.


The Eagles had 14 called runs in the 2nd half excluding kneel downs and 9 called runs in the 1st half...


The Eagles were leading after the 1st half...


The real question is where was Reggie Brown while all this was happening?


That made about as much sense as that dissertation you posted above that has been totally decimated. Laughing
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Phire


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerElite wrote:
Phire wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
Phire wrote:

Yes, we passed a lot, but we were also losing.


The Eagles had 14 called runs in the 2nd half excluding kneel downs and 9 called runs in the 1st half...


The Eagles were leading after the 1st half...


The real question is where was Reggie Brown while all this was happening?


That made about as much sense as that dissertation you posted above that has been totally decimated. Laughing


Here's the difference between me and you.

I can take my time to post my thoughts and feelings, bring up examples from the past, trends from around the league, go find statistics to add to the conversation. All of those can shape the way I feel.

You focus on semantics. Your responses are predictable because your views are shaped by your ultimate motive: to be right, and you'll shape any argument, twist any facts--to attain that.

I also listen to those who respond to me.

You only hear what you want, and only respond to what you can without making a fool out of yourself to protect that fake and annoying internet "elite" persona you desire so much.

I also don't proclaim to be right all the time, because I don't have to be. I don't post here because I have all the answers. I welcome people to disprove me, to tell my I'm wrong, and if your arguments are good enough my views will change accordingly.

You can never accept being wrong, and you think being wrong is some sort of punishment or an attack on your intellect. What you are oblivious to is that your defiance against being wrong or proven wrong is actually and quite frankly a negative reflection on your intellect. Talk about irony.

You mistaken an internet forum where we discuss our views, share our thoughts, and shape our opinions for a fake, transparent, and merit-less source of internet bravado.

So while you "decimate" my post, you decimate your own intellectual visage you try oh-so-hard to protect by being yourself.

tl;dr Jeremy Maclin > Reggie Brown
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Broadway Joe wrote:
As I said, we are stuck with a coach who is not bad enough to be fired and his inability to adapt will never get him over the hump. Maybe I'm wrong a part of me wants to believe last year success running the ball will be a big part of this year, but if history is an indicator, we will just be seeing the same product.


I don't mean to PE you and pick out only a fragment of your argument (I read your entire post closely) but I think we're actually not too far from a similar line of thinking.

Maybe Andy is poised for some philosophical change, but I think that's going to be the predominant narrative throughout this season.

Andy has his team. His defensive coordinator is ready. All the major players on our team have their contracts. No distractions, no reliance on really young guys.

The defining factor is whether Andy can correct his wrongs or not.

We all want to see more runs, but there is no guarantee that happens.

I just want to point out that we were 2-2 in the redzone, an issue that was prevalent a few years ago, hopefully that is no longer the case, and if our redzone offense is decent this year, it's proof that Andy's ability to correct problems still has a heartbeat.


At least we agree that if Andy doesn't learn from his mistakes he should not be resigned?

The Red Zone offese was a pleasent surprise. The same with the Red Zone defense was outstanding. Another positive aspect which I didn't expect was the Safety play.
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