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Jeff Ireland On the Hot Seat
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Blagasse67


Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 11319
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judson49 wrote:
bpastermack wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Blagasse67 wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Blagasse67 wrote:
Are you sure about that? The way the defense looked against an elite offense, i'd say we aren't far at all.


LOL


Look at the Falcons. How much more talent do they have than us? They just have TWO wrs and an Old TE. Every thing about the Falcons is even with us except WR and TE.


You're just joking around, right?


Oh and there is always that pesky O-line, QB, and DB's thing to think about too


Not to mention that Blagasse himself started this thread with the assertion that it should surprise no-one that Ireland is on the hot seat and how we need to find good talent evaluators. Even suggesting that he has predicted that we're bottom feeders in the league this year and next.

Couple of pages later and Ireland has done a good job and we're one or two players away!!


This is why i stopped coming here for a while. Judson is one of the guys that has no idea what he is talking about and just attacks posters. He is the tough guy that sits in his moms house and sits at a computer dreaming about his days sitting on the bench playing JV football.

Bpastermack, Atlanta's OL is about as good as ours. Their OL is very shaky this year. They even adjusted their offense to a quick pass game to allow Matt Ryan to get the ball out of his hands. If Matt Ryan does simple drop backs, He will be sacked and not have a lot of time. The QB thing, sure that is yet to bee seen with Tannehill. As far as DBs? On paper they are much better but overall their secondary is not that much better than ours. Grimes is good, Dunta Robinson and Samuel tend to get burned a lot. To say they are that much better than us is not true. Before they got Julio Jones they were mediocre on offense.

The biggest difference between Atlanta and us, is a playmaker on offense.

Judson back to you, I said don't be surprised if Ireland is gone because of Ross. Ross is impatient and keeps wanting to win. Then i proceeded to say that whoever we get, i hope is a good talent evaluator. I don't want some idiot coming in that has no idea what he is talking about.

I'm not like most of you posters. I can see both sides a lot of the time. I can actually see reasons for firing and reasons for keeping him. When i thought about all the players on the team and the moves Jeff Ireland was apart of making, i realized he wasn't that bad at all. A lot of you guys think that you have to have an ALL MADDEN TEAM. Well turn off the video games kids because this is real life football.

We are a couple play makers away from being a good team. We are a few years of experience away from competing.

Right now how i see it,

WR
DE
TE
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
I for one am completely willing to admit that mistakes were made by the prior regime comprised of Parcells, Ireland & Sparano. I don't know who contributed what but I do know they attempted to install an out-dated offensive system. I do know they chose not to draft Matt Ryan and instead Jake Long. I do know they drafted poorly on offense bringing in QB Chad Henne, WR Patrick Turner and other mid- and late-round offensive players that often failed. I do know however that they assembled a solid defense. I do know they brought talent to the team in free agency in the form of Pennington, Starks, Bess, Wake, Marshall, Dansby, Smiley, Burnett & Incognito amongst others. I do know that the overall record of this regime was just below .500.


What they could have done when they came here was release Jason Taylor, trade Joey Porter, trade Ricky Williams, trade Ronnie Brown and so on. That would've shaken this forum. I remember all the talk about how DTRB was a top-5 back, etc, etc, etc. I personally scoffed at that notion, but he was our best player, no doubt. Not only was he a contributor but he was a fan-favorite and a stand-up guy. I can only imagine what would've been said when we got only a 3rd rounder for Ronnie Brown. Laughing

That would've been the basis for a true re-build however the decision was made (by who we don't know) to take the 'win-now' approach and to see if the addition of experienced coaches, conservative drafting and free agent money could make the team competitive.

Ultimately, that gamble failed. It was a decision that we can only lay on the group itself. That's hard for a lot of people to get over--that Ireland can be part of a failed regime but possibly still be able to switch directions and be successful in an actual rebuild. Ireland will clearly learn lessons from the failure--more than we can type on this forum--so let's give him some respect and not act like he isn't an intelligent individual.


So, please guys, understand that Bill Parcells did not rebuild the Miami Dolphins. He simply did not. His entire regime made decision under the premise that they could turn the team around immediately with the things I listed above.

They were NOT rebuilding.

So how do you judge whether Jeff Ireland can rebuild this franchise or not? Simply that he went along with the prior regimes MO? Just remember, you've yet to see him charged with rebuilding anything.

Well, what do we hope the franchise learned? Let's ask ourselves.

Well, 1st things 1st, true rebuilding needs to be the first priority.

It's hard for me to take a list of GMs and say who's doing well and who's not because they each were handed a different roster, are working under a different owners and have had different coaches to select from in the 'free agent' market.

This is a 'right place, right time' sort of business and because of that I want to check first and make sure that we aren't currently in a spot were we actually have the right guy at the right time.

It's important to realize that the gamble didn't pay off for us but that it often does for other teams. Elway brought in Peyton Manning. The Colts were nearly winless without Manning which tells me that Elway has 21 of the easiest positions in football to fill.

Unfortunately, the Dolphins of 2007 left very little on the table. Our best players were either aging veterans (Taylor/Porter), injury-hampered RBs (Brown) or simply under-developed, over-rated and over-drafted WRs. (Lightning Rod)




So again, what do we hope the franchise has learned? Here would be my list of basic steps applicable to almost any franchise that truly wants to rebuild and find itself much improved 5 years down the line.

A) Completely ditch the idea that you have any talent on your roster from which to build. You don't build around anyone in this league. You build from scratch. The success of your venture CANNOT be hinged upon any current player despite his record, his age or his contract.

B) Get used to the idea that any talent on your roster that actually contributes will be all icing on the cake. However, you MUST assume you have nothing to build around.

C) Create an idea, picture and model of what you want to build.

D) Fire every coach, scout and executive who doesn't align with that model.

E) Hire people who fit that model, namely a Head Coach.

Here would be my ideal criteria:
--Offensively-Oriented
--No prior failures as a HC
--Yet to win a Super Bowl as a HC (motivated)
--Has experience working with QBs (preferably good ones)

(This all describes Joe Philbin, actually)

F) Trade everyone of value that isn't young. (e.g. Brandon Marshall)

G) Release players who've had ample time to progress. (e.g. Roberto Wallace)

H) Trade troublesome players who return their value. (e.g. Vontae Davis, 25th overall pick for Colts pick b/t 33rd-40th overall)

I) Don't spend big money in free agency. You don't need a player who's best years will be spent playing on your developing roster.

J) Keep players who's trade value is low but who keep you competitive (e.g. Reggie Bush)

K) Draft as though you have a roster of 0 players -->

Round 1: QB, (Most important position in the NFL)
Round 2: OT, (Protect your biggest investment)
Round 3: DE, (Build around what's most important on defense)



These are the steps necessary to complete year-1 of a rebuild.

Is it a coincidence that this team has provided us with an example of each of these steps? I don't think so. So far, Jeff Ireland has done an A+ job in completing the initial steps of a rebuild.

Take your eyes off of the faces for a minute guys. Think about what the real problems were and appreciate just how much was done this off-season.

This could be the moment in time the Dolphins turned the corner. Do you really all want to be so rash in your judgement?

Just think about it.


'
I guess there are a lot of things we see differently. I don't agree with much of what you said above, most importantly, I don't think Jeff Ireland has done anything, anything at all, to show me that he deserves a 3rd/4th/5th chance to build a winner. There are lots of ways to build a winning franchise, but perhaps the single most important factor is the GM. After all, he hires the coaches and select the players (usually). With that in mind, I ask, once again, what has Jeff Ireland done to show he deserves another shot at this? As I said before, I EXPECT EXCEPTIONAL leaders for this once proud franchise. I don't see an exceptional talent evaluator, nor do I see a guy with vision. Those two things seem essential.

Ireland proved me wrong about his people skills. For all the talk about the Dez Bryant pre-draft questioning and the idea that he was the reason players didn't want to come to Miami, I saw a much different truth in Hard Knocks. He seemed to do very, very well with the players. So, I have no doubt he COULD prove me wrong again. However, there is a lot more evidence that his talent evaluations are mediocre or worse, and most everyone agrees that the vision leading this franchise belongs to Philbin. So, from where I sit that is two huge knocks on what seem to me to be the two key issues. I will be relieved the day Ireland is fired, which I don't doubt will be relatively soon.
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Judson49


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blagasse67 wrote:
Judson49 wrote:
bpastermack wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Blagasse67 wrote:
xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Blagasse67 wrote:
Are you sure about that? The way the defense looked against an elite offense, i'd say we aren't far at all.


LOL


Look at the Falcons. How much more talent do they have than us? They just have TWO wrs and an Old TE. Every thing about the Falcons is even with us except WR and TE.


You're just joking around, right?


Oh and there is always that pesky O-line, QB, and DB's thing to think about too


Not to mention that Blagasse himself started this thread with the assertion that it should surprise no-one that Ireland is on the hot seat and how we need to find good talent evaluators. Even suggesting that he has predicted that we're bottom feeders in the league this year and next.

Couple of pages later and Ireland has done a good job and we're one or two players away!!


This is why i stopped coming here for a while. Judson is one of the guys that has no idea what he is talking about and just attacks posters. He is the tough guy that sits in his moms house and sits at a computer dreaming about his days sitting on the bench playing JV football.

Bpastermack, Atlanta's OL is about as good as ours. Their OL is very shaky this year. They even adjusted their offense to a quick pass game to allow Matt Ryan to get the ball out of his hands. If Matt Ryan does simple drop backs, He will be sacked and not have a lot of time. The QB thing, sure that is yet to bee seen with Tannehill. As far as DBs? On paper they are much better but overall their secondary is not that much better than ours. Grimes is good, Dunta Robinson and Samuel tend to get burned a lot. To say they are that much better than us is not true. Before they got Julio Jones they were mediocre on offense.

The biggest difference between Atlanta and us, is a playmaker on offense.

Judson back to you, I said don't be surprised if Ireland is gone because of Ross. Ross is impatient and keeps wanting to win. Then i proceeded to say that whoever we get, i hope is a good talent evaluator. I don't want some idiot coming in that has no idea what he is talking about.

I'm not like most of you posters. I can see both sides a lot of the time. I can actually see reasons for firing and reasons for keeping him. When i thought about all the players on the team and the moves Jeff Ireland was apart of making, i realized he wasn't that bad at all. A lot of you guys think that you have to have an ALL MADDEN TEAM. Well turn off the video games kids because this is real life football.

We are a couple play makers away from being a good team. We are a few years of experience away from competing.

Right now how i see it,

WR
DE
TE



Huh?? What in the heckedy heck are you talking about?? Where did that come from!
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:

I guess there are a lot of things we see differently. I don't agree with much of what you said above, most importantly, I don't think Jeff Ireland has done anything, anything at all, to show me that he deserves a 3rd/4th/5th chance to build a winner. There are lots of ways to build a winning franchise, but perhaps the single most important factor is the GM. After all, he hires the coaches and select the players (usually). With that in mind, I ask, once again, what has Jeff Ireland done to show he deserves another shot at this? As I said before, I EXPECT EXCEPTIONAL leaders for this once proud franchise. I don't see an exceptional talent evaluator, nor do I see a guy with vision. Those two things seem essential.

Ireland proved me wrong about his people skills. For all the talk about the Dez Bryant pre-draft questioning and the idea that he was the reason players didn't want to come to Miami, I saw a much different truth in Hard Knocks. He seemed to do very, very well with the players. So, I have no doubt he COULD prove me wrong again. However, there is a lot more evidence that his talent evaluations are mediocre or worse, and most everyone agrees that the vision leading this franchise belongs to Philbin. So, from where I sit that is two huge knocks on what seem to me to be the two key issues. I will be relieved the day Ireland is fired, which I don't doubt will be relatively soon.


I appreciate you going back and forth with me but I think you and I just see things too differently to convince each other to change our views. In all honesty though, I think I've done a good job of explicitly going through just why I think what I do.

You say 3rd, 4th and 5th chance. I think the guy got 1 chance and got kind of screwed over by the situation. Therefore, I consider this his 1st real chance with no excuses.

When Ireland was hired, Parcells was bringing in a flood of Dallas Cowboys personnel so it's hard for me to believe that Jeff Ireland did much more than go along for the ride with hiring Tony Sparano. I'm just drawing a logical conclusion where neither you or I really know, but clearly the facts point towards a GM who's hands were tied.

Plus, wanting "exceptional" can't be part of anyone's argument. We all want that but that's a by-product of a lot of things. "Exceptional" is not a trait 1 single individual possesses. Imagine if your boss judged you on such esoteric principles and suggested that he'd be justified in firing you because of the performance of your co-workers--who you probably didn't hand-select. Furthermore, to say that Ireland doesn't have a vision is just a cynical guess really. That's more a commentary on your views more than it is anything of substance.

First the first time this year, we can honestly say that Ireland gave the final nod to hiring the HC. To me, if it doesn't work with Philbin then we might as well fire Ireland, too, but we can go around all mopey in the meantime.

Long story short, Ireland deserves one chance to put a coach in place and to get some players without outside influence.

I say this is Jeff Ireland's first and last chance at just that.
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Judson49


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do so love this ongoing enforced perception that those people who think Ireland doesn't deserve any more opportunities are clearly on a thoughtless "witch-hunt" because they just "can't get over" the reality that Parcells ran the show before.

I personally haven't got time to think like that, because I'm too busy moaning about how we haven't got elite players at every single position. Because, obviously, we think that too.

It's an ongoing shambles that this franchise doesn't draft a hall of famer with every pick.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:

I guess there are a lot of things we see differently. I don't agree with much of what you said above, most importantly, I don't think Jeff Ireland has done anything, anything at all, to show me that he deserves a 3rd/4th/5th chance to build a winner. There are lots of ways to build a winning franchise, but perhaps the single most important factor is the GM. After all, he hires the coaches and select the players (usually). With that in mind, I ask, once again, what has Jeff Ireland done to show he deserves another shot at this? As I said before, I EXPECT EXCEPTIONAL leaders for this once proud franchise. I don't see an exceptional talent evaluator, nor do I see a guy with vision. Those two things seem essential.

Ireland proved me wrong about his people skills. For all the talk about the Dez Bryant pre-draft questioning and the idea that he was the reason players didn't want to come to Miami, I saw a much different truth in Hard Knocks. He seemed to do very, very well with the players. So, I have no doubt he COULD prove me wrong again. However, there is a lot more evidence that his talent evaluations are mediocre or worse, and most everyone agrees that the vision leading this franchise belongs to Philbin. So, from where I sit that is two huge knocks on what seem to me to be the two key issues. I will be relieved the day Ireland is fired, which I don't doubt will be relatively soon.


I appreciate you going back and forth with me but I think you and I just see things too differently to convince each other to change our views. In all honesty though, I think I've done a good job of explicitly going through just why I think what I do.

You say 3rd, 4th and 5th chance. I think the guy got 1 chance and got kind of screwed over by the situation. Therefore, I consider this his 1st real chance with no excuses.

When Ireland was hired, Parcells was bringing in a flood of Dallas Cowboys personnel so it's hard for me to believe that Jeff Ireland did much more than go along for the ride with hiring Tony Sparano. I'm just drawing a logical conclusion where neither you or I really know, but clearly the facts point towards a GM who's hands were tied.

Plus, wanting "exceptional" can't be part of anyone's argument. We all want that but that's a by-product of a lot of things. "Exceptional" is not a trait 1 single individual possesses. Imagine if your boss judged you on such esoteric principles and suggested that he'd be justified in firing you because of the performance of your co-workers--who you probably didn't hand-select. Furthermore, to say that Ireland doesn't have a vision is just a cynical guess really. That's more a commentary on your views more than it is anything of substance.

First the first time this year, we can honestly say that Ireland gave the final nod to hiring the HC. To me, if it doesn't work with Philbin then we might as well fire Ireland, too, but we can go around all mopey in the meantime.

Long story short, Ireland deserves one chance to put a coach in place and to get some players without outside influence.

I say this is Jeff Ireland's first and last chance at just that.


While most people give Ireland a pass in the Parcells era, I look at it this way, Ireland was either an incompetent/poor talent evaluator that had some input, or he was a free loader that collect a check for doing nothing for several years. Either way, he deserves walking papers.

As for the issue of "exceptional" being esoteric, I couldn't disagree more. Exceptional is not subjective. The proof is in the pudding. Draft classes, even if you narrow it down to the two drafts Ireland is SOLELY responsible for, appear to be mediocre at best. Throw in the comments I've made above (poor talent evaluator or freeloader) and the evidence mounts that Ireland is NOT exceptional. In fact, evidence suggests at a high water mark he is marginal. And yes, I am judged on my performance at my job, and the people that work for me, that I hired, are also part of my job evaluation. What you seem to think is unfair in my evaluation of Ireland is commonplace in the work place. Reviews are given annually, and my job security is directly tied to the results of my department and the people I hire to work in it. I see nothing unfair about judging Ireland similarly.


Sadly, most people will agree with this when Ireland is gone. Hindsight is 20-20. For example, there were many that defended Sparano, but now that he is gone, the overwhelming consensus is that he sucked and that his game/vision for the team was outdated. Ireland, I firmly believe, will be viewed the same way, in that what is clear to me and some other now, will be clear to everyone. Ireland is not a top notch GM. Tannehill is his only hope.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
While most people give Ireland a pass in the Parcells era, I look at it this way, Ireland was either an incompetent/poor talent evaluator that had some input, or he was a free loader that collect a check for doing nothing for several years. Either way, he deserves walking papers.

As for the issue of "exceptional" being esoteric, I couldn't disagree more. Exceptional is not subjective. The proof is in the pudding. Draft classes, even if you narrow it down to the two drafts Ireland is SOLELY responsible for, appear to be mediocre at best. Throw in the comments I've made above (poor talent evaluator or freeloader) and the evidence mounts that Ireland is NOT exceptional. In fact, evidence suggests at a high water mark he is marginal. And yes, I am judged on my performance at my job, and the people that work for me, that I hired, are also part of my job evaluation. What you seem to think is unfair in my evaluation of Ireland is commonplace in the work place. Reviews are given annually, and my job security is directly tied to the results of my department and the people I hire to work in it. I see nothing unfair about judging Ireland similarly.


Sadly, most people will agree with this when Ireland is gone. Hindsight is 20-20. For example, there were many that defended Sparano, but now that he is gone, the overwhelming consensus is that he sucked and that his game/vision for the team was outdated. Ireland, I firmly believe, will be viewed the same way, in that what is clear to me and some other now, will be clear to everyone. Ireland is not a top notch GM. Tannehill is his only hope.


See, your problem so much as I can see it is that you take everything and spin it to where it's a negative either way. It certainly looks more as though you are trying to find every reason NOT to like Jeff Ireland even so much that you view neutral things negatively.

We both know that people who 'just collect checks' don't hang around for long and that it would be a terrible way of working in a business where good people don't hang around for more than a decade and where you're next job interview is always around the corner.

If I'm a GM for a football team, I'd be working my tail off, and I know that's true of you to so don't sit there and begin to say Jeff Ireland is lazy. I have a real sense you think that which is part of why I've given you heat for your posts. To even begin to base an argument on that really shows how little your appreciating the toughness of the job.

You can't say he 'just collected a check.' That's non-sense. He was offered a good job and took it. He was given a chance to come to a team where he could be the GM without having Jerry Jones dictate to him how things would be done. Dallas is a very unique situation in the NFL. We both know that. Both Ireland and Parcells recognized the fundamental problem in Dallas. Nobody was allowed to do their jobs without a fight because everything had to be touched and manipulated in some way by Jerry Jones.

I don't blame Ireland for coming here at all. Do you? Your mentor offers you a position at his company instead of the one where you currently dislike your meddling boss. It makes perfect sense even without the pay raise I'm sure he got.

Nevertheless, he had what, two or three drafts with Parcells influencing most picks and then another year or two trying to give Tony Sparano enough to salvage the project and keep the ship afloat after enough damage was done by A) putting a bunch of Parcells cronies in the coordinator and coaching spots which hindered every players development and B) drafting a QB based on a Parcells approach where you need X amount of starts and Y amount of wins, etc, etc, etc.

Well, I guess that garbage got thrown out the window because I can promise you whatever the heck those Parcells standards for QBs are...Tannehill dang sure doesn't meet them! Laughing

Sit back for a minute and imagine what you'd say if I told you Ireland was fighting for Matt Ryan and he didn't get his way. What would you think then? For me, that would change a lot. For all we know it could have gone like that. We don't know what would've happened in Parcells wasn't involved. When he left though, we know that he did so because the project was crumbling and what made things even worse was that everyone was trying to impress the new owner instead of giving him the straight dope and saying, Hi, Mr Ross, I'm so happy to meet you, when can we talk privately because I need to tell you I'm about to rip apart and rebuild your organization?'

Ireland left a job where Jerry Jones undermined his professional goals. He came to a place where that same thing happened with Bill Parcells in Jones' stead. Then, to make matters worse, he had to suck up to the new owner just to keep his job to hope like hell that he'd actually get the chance to finally see the day where he did have control over the Miami Dolphins.

Well, he FINALLY does. He FINALLY freaking does.

Me--and a few other supporters around here--want to see what he can do now that he's given a decade of his life to try and get to have this 1 chance.


Even with all that went wrong, this was a .500 ball club during the Tony Sparano era. We're rebuilding now but we're doing it with a team that clearly will benefit from guys like Wake, Odrick, Starks, Hartline, Pouncey, etc, etc, etc. Listen to their interviews! They guys are authoritative and confident. They know what's being built. They aren't hearing any of it when the media tells them the team is terrible. They know it's not. They've seen the picture...and yet you say the coach isn't getting it across. He's sitting us their defending everyone one of his guys! You think they don't hear that and say...wow, Tony Sparano didn't do that. He offered us some vague generality about playing better, smarter football. Philbin actually knows what they hell he's talking about and he'll give someone the straight dope on whether or not they're doing the right things.

The players have responded. How you can view Philbin negatively after all we've seen is truly amazing because I have a ton of respect for him and for what Ireland has fought to maintain here in Miami.

There are so many things right with this team that for once and it's because we have a GM that did it his way despite maybe more negative press than any GM this team's ever had. I think Ireland understands what on the line. He's fought tooth and nail to save his job because he cares about football and he cares about this team. Think about how unique that is. You want someone who's good? You better find someone willing to give their life to a profession and if you don't think Jeff Ireland has done that you might want to re-evaluate what this guy's been doing for a long time making sacrifice after sacrifice only to come to this end.

I see that or at least I think I do. The only thing you and I agree on now without question is that Ross can definitely screw this up. If Ireland is fired after this season I will be really crushed in a big way. So many things are finally set up for this team to be built properly. What a loss that would be.


Not in a VERY long time can I remember the Dolphins having so many guys in place who's butts are on the line and who genuinely care about making this franchise successful. It's in the coaches, the coordinators, the players and the front office. If Hard Knocks showed you anything it had to be that. We've got guys really fighting to make this work. Guys know what's on the line.

My biggest hope is that Ross is among them and the future success of the team will be more important to him than handing Ireland over to the press on a silver platter.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:


See, your problem so much as I can see it is that you take everything and spin it to where it's a negative either way. It certainly looks more as though you are trying to find every reason NOT to like Jeff Ireland even so much that you view neutral things negatively.


I want and have every single reason to want Jeff Ireland to kick serious tail. I would LOVE for him to be amazing and shut my big fat yapper. I mean that. The single biggest hobby in my life since I was 5 years old has been the Dolphins. That's 35+ years that the Dolphins have been a near obsession. I want nothing BUT success for the Dolphins. So, no, it may sound like I have a "horse in the race" for Ireland to fail, but please, don't confuse the voracity with which I state my case to be rooting for failure for anyone involved with the Dolphins, especially the top dog. I am not nearly as attached to the need to be "right" as I am in my desire for the Dolphins to win.






phinmun wrote:


We both know that people who 'just collect checks' don't hang around for long and that it would be a terrible way of working in a business where good people don't hang around for more than a decade and where you're next job interview is always around the corner.

If I'm a GM for a football team, I'd be working my tail off, and I know that's true of you to so don't sit there and begin to say Jeff Ireland is lazy. I have a real sense you think that which is part of why I've given you heat for your posts. To even begin to base an argument on that really shows how little your appreciating the toughness of the job.

You can't say he 'just collected a check.' That's non-sense. He was offered a good job and took it. He was given a chance to come to a team where he could be the GM without having Jerry Jones dictate to him how things would be done. Dallas is a very unique situation in the NFL. We both know that. Both Ireland and Parcells recognized the fundamental problem in Dallas. Nobody was allowed to do their jobs without a fight because everything had to be touched and manipulated in some way by Jerry Jones.

I don't blame Ireland for coming here at all. Do you? Your mentor offers you a position at his company instead of the one where you currently dislike your meddling boss. It makes perfect sense even without the pay raise I'm sure he got.


I believe you may have missed my point.

I don't for a moment believe that Ireland is lazy or a free loader. I don't believe he "just collected a check". I've ALWAYS said Ireland had a TON of input into the Dolphins player/personnel decisions. In fact, I've, at times, argued that he was the one pulling strings, NOT Parcells. And whenever I make a case for Ireland bearing responsibility for drafts and player acquistions during the Parcell's era, I am told by posters here, that Ireland can't be held accountable for things during that time and that Ireland has to be judged solely by the post-Parcells years. So, I was suggesting above that if that is the case, if he can't be judged at ALL because Parcells was making all decisions, then he wasn't doing anything for his paycheck. Afterall, that was Ireland's job description.

No, I am totally certain that Ireland had input all along. SIGNIFICANT input. And as a result I assert that its totally appropriate to judge him for the success of the Parcells era. Ireland and Parcells sucked. That should count in the assessment and its usually not by virtually all supporters of Ireland.

phinmun wrote:

Nevertheless, he had what, two or three drafts with Parcells influencing most picks and then another year or two trying to give Tony Sparano enough to salvage the project and keep the ship afloat after enough damage was done by A) putting a bunch of Parcells cronies in the coordinator and coaching spots which hindered every players development and B) drafting a QB based on a Parcells approach where you need X amount of starts and Y amount of wins, etc, etc, etc.

Well, I guess that garbage got thrown out the window because I can promise you whatever the heck those Parcells standards for QBs are...Tannehill dang sure doesn't meet them! Laughing


Case in point.

phinmun wrote:

Sit back for a minute and imagine what you'd say if I told you Ireland was fighting for Matt Ryan and he didn't get his way. What would you think then? For me, that would change a lot. For all we know it could have gone like that.


See, you want to guess at what could have happened. I want to assess what we know has happened. We know the Dolphins have blown chunks for years. They have nose dived as a franchise after one year of promise. The first year the Ireland/Parcells era began. WE KNOW THAT. That's verifiable. Because analyzing trades and assessing players and all of that doesn't matter. The score on Sunday matters, and we've been at the crap end of the stick for a long, LONG time. Ireland had his shot. He had a better shot than a lot of his predecessors. He had several drafts. Several off seasons. Zip. So speculating that Ireland may have been high on the best QB prospect at our pick, is total guess work and not, in my opinion, worthy of consideration when evaluating his time with the team.

phinmun wrote:

We don't know what would've happened in Parcells wasn't involved. When he left though, we know that he did so because the project was crumbling and what made things even worse was that everyone was trying to impress the new owner instead of giving him the straight dope and saying, Hi, Mr Ross, I'm so happy to meet you, when can we talk privately because I need to tell you I'm about to rip apart and rebuild your organization?'

Ireland left a job where Jerry Jones undermined his professional goals. He came to a place where that same thing happened with Bill Parcells in Jones' stead. Then, to make matters worse, he had to suck up to the new owner just to keep his job to hope like hell that he'd actually get the chance to finally see the day where he did have control over the Miami Dolphins.


Well, he FINALLY does. He FINALLY freaking does.


I agree, that sounds like a real possibility. I don't want a suck up GM. I want someone who tells the owner the straight dope even if it costs him his gig. Truth tellers are what you look for in leaders. I don't want yes men around me. That serves no one. If your scenario happened then we have a guy jockeying for a job, even at the expense of the quality of the product on the field. Not saying that's what happened, but if your scenario is accurate it doesn't paint a picture of the guy I want running the Dolphins.




phinmun wrote:

Me--and a few other supporters around here--want to see what he can do now that he's given a decade of his life to try and get to have this 1 chance.


Again, I've seen plenty.


phinmun wrote:


Even with all that went wrong, this was a .500 ball club during the Tony Sparano era. We're rebuilding now but we're doing it with a team that clearly will benefit from guys like Wake, Odrick, Starks, Hartline, Pouncey, etc, etc, etc. Listen to their interviews! They guys are authoritative and confident.


Clyde Gates was authoritative and confident. It takes an ocean of authority and a mountain of confidence to be an NFL player. You don't get to that level of play without those qualities. Its not something that impresses me. Wins impress. The rest is wind.


phinmun wrote:

They know what's being built. They aren't hearing any of it when the media tells them the team is terrible. They know it's not. They've seen the picture...and yet you say the coach isn't getting it across. He's sitting us their defending everyone one of his guys! You think they don't hear that and say...wow, Tony Sparano didn't do that. He offered us some vague generality about playing better, smarter football. Philbin actually knows what they hell he's talking about and he'll give someone the straight dope on whether or not they're doing the right things.

The players have responded. How you can view Philbin negatively after all we've seen is truly amazing because I have a ton of respect for him and for what Ireland has fought to maintain here in Miami.


Philbin may well be a genius. I dunno. I can't argue that because the evidence is still mounting, but I have seen results from places he's worked. That's enough for me, until I see otherwise. I haven't seen him do anything to tell me he isn't a great football mind. Beyond that, you suggest the players respect/respond to him, I don't see that AT ALL. I see players that are clearly uncomfortable around him. I see horrific holes in his personality and I believe that matters a whole lot in coaching. Others don't. We will see soon enough in the case of Philbin. I believe football genius CAN override deficiencies in personality, but it doesn't make it easier. So, I'm not confident, but I'd love to see him succeed. Man, I can imagine how brutal it would be to lose a son. Nothing would make me happier to see him win for the Dolphins, but also for his family that deserves some large amount of joy, after such brutal tragedy .

phinmun wrote:

There are so many things right with this team that for once and it's because we have a GM that did it his way despite maybe more negative press than any GM this team's ever had. I think Ireland understands what on the line. He's fought tooth and nail to save his job because he cares about football and he cares about this team. Think about how unique that is. You want someone who's good? You better find someone willing to give their life to a profession and if you don't think Jeff Ireland has done that you might want to re-evaluate what this guy's been doing for a long time making sacrifice after sacrifice only to come to this end.


If you don't think that EVERY SINGLE GM in the entire NFL has busted his hump every bit as hard as Ireland, you don't understand the NFL. 14 hour days are expected. Leaders often sleep at the office. Its part and parcell to the gig. No one, NO ONE, phones it in. It can't be done. That goes all the way down to coaching staff and support. No one works 9-5pm. I don't doubt that Ireland's drive is entirely intense, but that is commonplace and necessary for the postion. Anyone we put in his seat will do the same or they would never be hired.

phinmun wrote:

I see that or at least I think I do. The only thing you and I agree on now without question is that Ross can definitely screw this up.


Nope. You believe he can screw it up. I believe he DID screw it up.


phinmun wrote:

If Ireland is fired after this season I will be really crushed in a big way. So many things are finally set up for this team to be built properly. What a loss that would be.


Not in a VERY long time can I remember the Dolphins having so many guys in place who's butts are on the line and who genuinely care about making this franchise successful. It's in the coaches, the coordinators, the players and the front office. If Hard Knocks showed you anything it had to be that. We've got guys really fighting to make this work. Guys know what's on the line.


Again, see above. Ireland's and the entire coaching staff's passion for winning is no greater than anyone else's. At this level of play everyone wants it deep, deep down.

phinmun wrote:

My biggest hope is that Ross is among them and the future success of the team will be more important to him than handing Ireland over to the press on a silver platter.


Its not the press that will get him fired, but his own win-loss record. That's what sells tickets. That's what will lose him his job if he is fired.
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green4gulf


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2239
Location: TN, by way of Palm Beach FL
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
phinmun wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:

I guess there are a lot of things we see differently. I don't agree with much of what you said above, most importantly, I don't think Jeff Ireland has done anything, anything at all, to show me that he deserves a 3rd/4th/5th chance to build a winner. There are lots of ways to build a winning franchise, but perhaps the single most important factor is the GM. After all, he hires the coaches and select the players (usually). With that in mind, I ask, once again, what has Jeff Ireland done to show he deserves another shot at this? As I said before, I EXPECT EXCEPTIONAL leaders for this once proud franchise. I don't see an exceptional talent evaluator, nor do I see a guy with vision. Those two things seem essential.

Ireland proved me wrong about his people skills. For all the talk about the Dez Bryant pre-draft questioning and the idea that he was the reason players didn't want to come to Miami, I saw a much different truth in Hard Knocks. He seemed to do very, very well with the players. So, I have no doubt he COULD prove me wrong again. However, there is a lot more evidence that his talent evaluations are mediocre or worse, and most everyone agrees that the vision leading this franchise belongs to Philbin. So, from where I sit that is two huge knocks on what seem to me to be the two key issues. I will be relieved the day Ireland is fired, which I don't doubt will be relatively soon.


I appreciate you going back and forth with me but I think you and I just see things too differently to convince each other to change our views. In all honesty though, I think I've done a good job of explicitly going through just why I think what I do.

You say 3rd, 4th and 5th chance. I think the guy got 1 chance and got kind of screwed over by the situation. Therefore, I consider this his 1st real chance with no excuses.

When Ireland was hired, Parcells was bringing in a flood of Dallas Cowboys personnel so it's hard for me to believe that Jeff Ireland did much more than go along for the ride with hiring Tony Sparano. I'm just drawing a logical conclusion where neither you or I really know, but clearly the facts point towards a GM who's hands were tied.

Plus, wanting "exceptional" can't be part of anyone's argument. We all want that but that's a by-product of a lot of things. "Exceptional" is not a trait 1 single individual possesses. Imagine if your boss judged you on such esoteric principles and suggested that he'd be justified in firing you because of the performance of your co-workers--who you probably didn't hand-select. Furthermore, to say that Ireland doesn't have a vision is just a cynical guess really. That's more a commentary on your views more than it is anything of substance.

First the first time this year, we can honestly say that Ireland gave the final nod to hiring the HC. To me, if it doesn't work with Philbin then we might as well fire Ireland, too, but we can go around all mopey in the meantime.

Long story short, Ireland deserves one chance to put a coach in place and to get some players without outside influence.

I say this is Jeff Ireland's first and last chance at just that.


While most people give Ireland a pass in the Parcells era, I look at it this way, Ireland was either an incompetent/poor talent evaluator that had some input, or he was a free loader that collect a check for doing nothing for several years. Either way, he deserves walking papers.

As for the issue of "exceptional" being esoteric, I couldn't disagree more. Exceptional is not subjective. The proof is in the pudding. Draft classes, even if you narrow it down to the two drafts Ireland is SOLELY responsible for, appear to be mediocre at best. Throw in the comments I've made above (poor talent evaluator or freeloader) and the evidence mounts that Ireland is NOT exceptional. In fact, evidence suggests at a high water mark he is marginal. And yes, I am judged on my performance at my job, and the people that work for me, that I hired, are also part of my job evaluation. What you seem to think is unfair in my evaluation of Ireland is commonplace in the work place. Reviews are given annually, and my job security is directly tied to the results of my department and the people I hire to work in it. I see nothing unfair about judging Ireland similarly.


Sadly, most people will agree with this when Ireland is gone. Hindsight is 20-20. For example, there were many that defended Sparano, but now that he is gone, the overwhelming consensus is that he sucked and that his game/vision for the team was outdated. Ireland, I firmly believe, will be viewed the same way, in that what is clear to me and some other now, will be clear to everyone. Ireland is not a top notch GM. Tannehill is his only hope.


Word homie!!!! In addition I don't feel as though Ireland has been held accountable to date for what has been an obvious undeniable marginal performance.

Furthermore, any person that believes Ireland to be above average at his job, are themselves a poor talent evaluator LoL.
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Fender


Joined: 30 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can sit here all day and propose that Ireland hasnt gotten a fair shake; that he had no power when Parcells was here, or that he wanted Ryan (or any other pick we've blown), or that he's had to sabatoge himself in order to keep his job (kissing up to Ross) etc. Prove any of that, else its just pure conjecture.

Whats NOT conjecture? The results. His draft record is littered with waived players, players no longer in the league, underachievers... His trade philosophy is buy high and sell low. In his tenure here the team is in its 3rd generation of coaches, with the likes of David Lee, Paul Pasq. and Dan Henning littering the roadside. Of course he has had a few success like Cameron Wake etc, but the results of the last 5 years speak volumes and no excuses anyone can make for him can outshine the colossal disaster this team has been during his tenure (minus year one).
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green4gulf


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2239
Location: TN, by way of Palm Beach FL
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
While most people give Ireland a pass in the Parcells era, I look at it this way, Ireland was either an incompetent/poor talent evaluator that had some input, or he was a free loader that collect a check for doing nothing for several years. Either way, he deserves walking papers.

As for the issue of "exceptional" being esoteric, I couldn't disagree more. Exceptional is not subjective. The proof is in the pudding. Draft classes, even if you narrow it down to the two drafts Ireland is SOLELY responsible for, appear to be mediocre at best. Throw in the comments I've made above (poor talent evaluator or freeloader) and the evidence mounts that Ireland is NOT exceptional. In fact, evidence suggests at a high water mark he is marginal. And yes, I am judged on my performance at my job, and the people that work for me, that I hired, are also part of my job evaluation. What you seem to think is unfair in my evaluation of Ireland is commonplace in the work place. Reviews are given annually, and my job security is directly tied to the results of my department and the people I hire to work in it. I see nothing unfair about judging Ireland similarly.


Sadly, most people will agree with this when Ireland is gone. Hindsight is 20-20. For example, there were many that defended Sparano, but now that he is gone, the overwhelming consensus is that he sucked and that his game/vision for the team was outdated. Ireland, I firmly believe, will be viewed the same way, in that what is clear to me and some other now, will be clear to everyone. Ireland is not a top notch GM. Tannehill is his only hope.


See, your problem so much as I can see it is that you take everything and spin it to where it's a negative either way. It certainly looks more as though you are trying to find every reason NOT to like Jeff Ireland even so much that you view neutral things negatively.

We both know that people who 'just collect checks' don't hang around for long and that it would be a terrible way of working in a business where good people don't hang around for more than a decade and where you're next job interview is always around the corner.

If I'm a GM for a football team, I'd be working my tail off, and I know that's true of you to so don't sit there and begin to say Jeff Ireland is lazy. I have a real sense you think that which is part of why I've given you heat for your posts. To even begin to base an argument on that really shows how little your appreciating the toughness of the job.

You can't say he 'just collected a check.' That's non-sense. He was offered a good job and took it. He was given a chance to come to a team where he could be the GM without having Jerry Jones dictate to him how things would be done. Dallas is a very unique situation in the NFL. We both know that. Both Ireland and Parcells recognized the fundamental problem in Dallas. Nobody was allowed to do their jobs without a fight because everything had to be touched and manipulated in some way by Jerry Jones.

I don't blame Ireland for coming here at all. Do you? Your mentor offers you a position at his company instead of the one where you currently dislike your meddling boss. It makes perfect sense even without the pay raise I'm sure he got.

Nevertheless, he had what, two or three drafts with Parcells influencing most picks and then another year or two trying to give Tony Sparano enough to salvage the project and keep the ship afloat after enough damage was done by A) putting a bunch of Parcells cronies in the coordinator and coaching spots which hindered every players development and B) drafting a QB based on a Parcells approach where you need X amount of starts and Y amount of wins, etc, etc, etc.

Well, I guess that garbage got thrown out the window because I can promise you whatever the heck those Parcells standards for QBs are...Tannehill dang sure doesn't meet them! Laughing

Sit back for a minute and imagine what you'd say if I told you Ireland was fighting for Matt Ryan and he didn't get his way. What would you think then? For me, that would change a lot. For all we know it could have gone like that. We don't know what would've happened in Parcells wasn't involved. When he left though, we know that he did so because the project was crumbling and what made things even worse was that everyone was trying to impress the new owner instead of giving him the straight dope and saying, Hi, Mr Ross, I'm so happy to meet you, when can we talk privately because I need to tell you I'm about to rip apart and rebuild your organization?'

Ireland left a job where Jerry Jones undermined his professional goals. He came to a place where that same thing happened with Bill Parcells in Jones' stead. Then, to make matters worse, he had to suck up to the new owner just to keep his job to hope like hell that he'd actually get the chance to finally see the day where he did have control over the Miami Dolphins.

Well, he FINALLY does. He FINALLY freaking does.

Me--and a few other supporters around here--want to see what he can do now that he's given a decade of his life to try and get to have this 1 chance.


Even with all that went wrong, this was a .500 ball club during the Tony Sparano era. We're rebuilding now but we're doing it with a team that clearly will benefit from guys like Wake, Odrick, Starks, Hartline, Pouncey, etc, etc, etc. Listen to their interviews! They guys are authoritative and confident. They know what's being built. They aren't hearing any of it when the media tells them the team is terrible. They know it's not. They've seen the picture...and yet you say the coach isn't getting it across. He's sitting us their defending everyone one of his guys! You think they don't hear that and say...wow, Tony Sparano didn't do that. He offered us some vague generality about playing better, smarter football. Philbin actually knows what they hell he's talking about and he'll give someone the straight dope on whether or not they're doing the right things.

The players have responded. How you can view Philbin negatively after all we've seen is truly amazing because I have a ton of respect for him and for what Ireland has fought to maintain here in Miami.

There are so many things right with this team that for once and it's because we have a GM that did it his way despite maybe more negative press than any GM this team's ever had. I think Ireland understands what on the line. He's fought tooth and nail to save his job because he cares about football and he cares about this team. Think about how unique that is. You want someone who's good? You better find someone willing to give their life to a profession and if you don't think Jeff Ireland has done that you might want to re-evaluate what this guy's been doing for a long time making sacrifice after sacrifice only to come to this end.

I see that or at least I think I do. The only thing you and I agree on now without question is that Ross can definitely screw this up. If Ireland is fired after this season I will be really crushed in a big way. So many things are finally set up for this team to be built properly. What a loss that would be.


Not in a VERY long time can I remember the Dolphins having so many guys in place who's butts are on the line and who genuinely care about making this franchise successful. It's in the coaches, the coordinators, the players and the front office. If Hard Knocks showed you anything it had to be that. We've got guys really fighting to make this work. Guys know what's on the line.

My biggest hope is that Ross is among them and the future success of the team will be more important to him than handing Ireland over to the press on a silver platter.


When you say making sacrifice after sacrifice you must mean....be granted favor after favor by friends of his step dads and grandfathers, and keeping the NFL good old boy connection alive.

People who sacrifice; sweat, bleed and puke together.....the only thing causing Ireland to sweat is the local media, and the only thing that might make him bleed in his cushy little office is a paper cut. People being overpaid ( rumored to be around $2.5 M for Ireland ) to continue to fail at a job they aren't qualified for aren't Martyr's, they're Failures.

I can understand where you're coming from and I can even admire the way you are taking an optimistic stand for your Team, but unfortunately I just can't agree with you about Jeff Ireland. While I don't think he's the sole reason for our Teams failures of the last several years, I do think that we deserve someone capable of providing more and so do the Dolphins Players and Organization.
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