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dolphinologist
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Why are we judging this draft after game 1 ?
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ZenZuki
Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Posts: 1509
Location: Drunk on Beach!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Isn't that how it's done around here? 
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Mercury22
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
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Location: the 50 yard line
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| dolphinologist wrote: | | Why are we judging this draft after game 1 ? |
Drafts are judged all along. They are judged as the picks are made, they are judged after week 1, they are judged at the end of year 1, they are judged 10 years later. All the while the judgment changes. Nothing wrong with that. No one says its the final judgment but its totally appropriate to assess value at any point along the continuum.
As for Ireland, I've been saying that they hot seat will be on for awhile. It was a near forgone conclusion. The vast majority of Dolphins fans aren't like the ones in this forum. Most in this forum dedicate more time and interest in the team. The average fan, checks the scores at the end of the day on Sunday and sees we lost. They don't ask why. They don't sort out the details of the loss, or look at any one players performance. They want wins and they want wins now. The calls were bound to come for Ireland's head when we starting rebuilding....again. It ensures another bad season and the fans in Miami letting Ross know they are unhappy.
I've long said the biggest issue is Stephen Ross, and I still believe that. Ireland is marginal. I don't believe a marginal guy can keep his job when the team keeps rebuilding and suffering through the growing pains of that rebuild. Especially when the rebuilding is constantly done to match a coaches system. If Ireland had a vision, and had been working on that vision and simply finding coaches to match that vision, we wouldn't have this problem. The problem as I see it, is trying to "find the players the coaches want". Then when that coaches gets released, the GM is off the hook for crappy picks, because "it wasn't his system" or "the plan was bad not the players" . Screw that. Give me a GM that knows how to win, picks the players to win, and finds a coach to make that vision come to fruition.
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ukdolfan
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 8848
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| dolphinologist wrote: | | Why are we judging this draft after game 1 ? |
I was going to post a serious response to this thread but you've already got us to the quota for reasonableness/rationality.
Now all I'm left with panic, "oh no"s and ignorance of the fact that the team we just lost to has patiently built itself into the team it is rather than expecting everything immediately.
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xXxHOUSEDxXx
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 4662
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| BlindUnrealisticDolphinsFans wrote: | | We lost one game to a very talented team on the road while starting a rookie QB. OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Let's let the season play out before on calling for the GM's head after one game. |
Man, I can't stand these BlindUnrealisticDolphinsFans posts. You're right, the sky isn't falling. It already crashed down on us and is currently on top of our throats suffocating our fan base causing a lack of oxygen to the brain, which makes some of you think that we have a bright future. Stop being unrealistic homers. Our team is absolutely atrocious and the future doesn't look good, especially considering it's still in the hands of the guy who destroyed this team in the first place. Is it too late to trade our next three drafts for RGIII like I said we should?
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Fins20??SBChamp
Joined: 30 Dec 2010
Posts: 408
Location: Tampa
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote: | | Is it too late to trade our next three drafts for RGIII like I said we should? |
Serious question, do you think RGIII or Andrew Luck would have done any better against the 2nd best defense in 2011 and this WR corps?
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phinmun
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mercury22 wrote: | | dolphinologist wrote: | | Why are we judging this draft after game 1 ? |
Drafts are judged all along. They are judged as the picks are made, they are judged after week 1, they are judged at the end of year 1, they are judged 10 years later. All the while the judgment changes. Nothing wrong with that. No one says its the final judgment but its totally appropriate to assess value at any point along the continuum.
As for Ireland, I've been saying that they hot seat will be on for awhile. It was a near forgone conclusion. The vast majority of Dolphins fans aren't like the ones in this forum. Most in this forum dedicate more time and interest in the team. The average fan, checks the scores at the end of the day on Sunday and sees we lost. They don't ask why. They don't sort out the details of the loss, or look at any one players performance. They want wins and they want wins now. The calls were bound to come for Ireland's head when we starting rebuilding....again. It ensures another bad season and the fans in Miami letting Ross know they are unhappy.
I've long said the biggest issue is Stephen Ross, and I still believe that. Ireland is marginal. I don't believe a marginal guy can keep his job when the team keeps rebuilding and suffering through the growing pains of that rebuild. Especially when the rebuilding is constantly done to match a coaches system. If Ireland had a vision, and had been working on that vision and simply finding coaches to match that vision, we wouldn't have this problem. The problem as I see it, is trying to "find the players the coaches want". Then when that coaches gets released, the GM is off the hook for crappy picks, because "it wasn't his system" or "the plan was bad not the players" . Screw that. Give me a GM that knows how to win, picks the players to win, and finds a coach to make that vision come to fruition. |
Okay...I'm on board with that. I totally understand that logic and it definitely puts in better perspective what I guess I was arguing against in those prior posts. I agree with your premise. I think that would be wonderful.
Now...how many men exist that could GM successfully like that and how many situations across the 32 teams are there where the GM will be given that power?
You see, this isn't an unfamiliar argument you're making. We see it all the time actually. When in turmoil, people often seek to elect leaders who advertise a sense of solidarity. In fact, in difficult times, the theory of a 'strong, central (individual) leader' becomes much more popular.
The bad thing is that it's a HIGHLY idealized theory. It sometimes works in business where a single individual can simply coerce others by means of power. When you put the power in one person's hands however, it rarely ends well for the simple fact that all the eggs are placed in one basket. Any flaw in that person's views becomes a major flaw in the entire system. In the NFL, those situations are sometimes still good enough to rise to the top but they are rare.
I just hope you understand you're saying you want something that is very, very hard to find and is against the odds--which is a great way of explaining why we haven't found it. In reality, we'd all love that. It's just very difficult to find that and very difficult to make it successful when you implement it.
I love the idea of that but I can't help but wonder if that sort of thing happens once in say, 30 years for any given team. |
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ukdolfan
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 8848
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote: |
Man, I can't stand these BlindUnrealisticDolphinsFans posts. You're right, the sky isn't falling. It already crashed down on us and is currently on top of our throats suffocating our fan base causing a lack of oxygen to the brain, which makes some of you think that we have a bright future. Stop being unrealistic homers. Our team is absolutely atrocious and the future doesn't look good, especially considering it's still in the hands of the guy who destroyed this team in the first place. Is it too late to trade our next three drafts for RGIII like I said we should? |
I'm not sure why you think anyone that doesn't act like 'a 16 year old emo girl who no-one asked to the prom' when we lose, is a "BlindUnrealisticDolphinsFan" or "unrealistic homer".
To be honest, I think you miss the fact that there can positives and reasons for hope within an overall negative.
...........
I'm not sure how people can write off players after the one game. Rookie QBs don't always play well immediately, but that isn't reason to give up hope. Through four games Peyton had 11 INTs. Andrew Luck also gave up 3 INTs this week, I'm guessing the Colts should give up on him too.
...........
Teams don't get good by constant change. I could imagine some of you wanting to change house whenever there is a bad season. I'm sure some of you would be ecstatic to be in the position the Texans are right now - look how they got there, they didn't get there by panicking because they were a regular 6-9 win team.
For all you want to moan about Ireland, he is at least setting things up well for whoever is in charge next offseason (yet to be seen whether this is Ireland). The team has cleared cap space and picked up extra picks.
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Clutch
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 2236
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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In fantasy, there are always a crop of great prospects you can pick up and hold onto until they become the future stars (thinking Keeper League). The problem is, once you get in that rut, you never give a player a chance to really develop, because you are after the next 'big thing'.
I feel like we are doing that with the FIns. There is always some up and coming player that we need to get or focus on that particular position. It is time for this franchise to draft, sign some free agents, and ride this thing out with a regime for longer than 2 years.
My fear is that if you fire Ireland, Joe Philbin could be gone too.....and Mike Sherman etc. The new GM will probably want his own guys, own qb etc. I am getting really tired of it. Too much change.
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green4gulf
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1896
Location: TN, by way of Palm Beach FL
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| phinmun wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | dolphinologist wrote: | | Why are we judging this draft after game 1 ? |
Drafts are judged all along. They are judged as the picks are made, they are judged after week 1, they are judged at the end of year 1, they are judged 10 years later. All the while the judgment changes. Nothing wrong with that. No one says its the final judgment but its totally appropriate to assess value at any point along the continuum.
As for Ireland, I've been saying that they hot seat will be on for awhile. It was a near forgone conclusion. The vast majority of Dolphins fans aren't like the ones in this forum. Most in this forum dedicate more time and interest in the team. The average fan, checks the scores at the end of the day on Sunday and sees we lost. They don't ask why. They don't sort out the details of the loss, or look at any one players performance. They want wins and they want wins now. The calls were bound to come for Ireland's head when we starting rebuilding....again. It ensures another bad season and the fans in Miami letting Ross know they are unhappy.
I've long said the biggest issue is Stephen Ross, and I still believe that. Ireland is marginal. I don't believe a marginal guy can keep his job when the team keeps rebuilding and suffering through the growing pains of that rebuild. Especially when the rebuilding is constantly done to match a coaches system. If Ireland had a vision, and had been working on that vision and simply finding coaches to match that vision, we wouldn't have this problem. The problem as I see it, is trying to "find the players the coaches want". Then when that coaches gets released, the GM is off the hook for crappy picks, because "it wasn't his system" or "the plan was bad not the players" . Screw that. Give me a GM that knows how to win, picks the players to win, and finds a coach to make that vision come to fruition. |
Okay...I'm on board with that. I totally understand that logic and it definitely puts in better perspective what I guess I was arguing against in those prior posts. I agree with your premise. I think that would be wonderful.
Now...how many men exist that could GM successfully like that and how many situations across the 32 teams are there where the GM will be given that power?
You see, this isn't an unfamiliar argument you're making. We see it all the time actually. When in turmoil, people often seek to elect leaders who advertise a sense of solidarity. In fact, in difficult times, the theory of a 'strong, central (individual) leader' becomes much more popular.
The bad thing is that it's a HIGHLY idealized theory. It sometimes works in business where a single individual can simply coerce others by means of power. When you put the power in one person's hands however, it rarely ends well for the simple fact that all the eggs are placed in one basket. Any flaw in that person's views becomes a major flaw in the entire system. In the NFL, those situations are sometimes still good enough to rise to the top but they are rare.
I just hope you understand you're saying you want something that is very, very hard to find and is against the odds--which is a great way of explaining why we haven't found it. In reality, we'd all love that. It's just very difficult to find that and very difficult to make it successful when you implement it.
I love the idea of that but I can't help but wonder if that sort of thing happens once in say, 30 years for any given team. |
A GM should know how to win and should have a direction for the team, whether it be by dictating that direction to the HC or by communicating with the HC and and signing off on the HC's plan and direction.
It's tough to find a good GM, no doubt, but it can be done and here's a list of good GM's that can do the job well imo;
Ozzie Newsome - Ravens ( #1 )
Rick Smith - Texans
John Elway - Broncos
Scott Pioli - Chiefs
AJ Smith - Chargers
Jerry Jones - Dallas ( love him or hate him he is the force behind the Cowboys and has drafted his players for a long time now )
Bruce Allen - Redskins
Ted Thompson - Packers ( #2 )
Thomas Dimitroff - Falcons
Micky Loomis - Saints
Bill Polian - Available |
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phinmun
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| green4gulf wrote: | It's tough to find a good GM, no doubt, but it can be done and here's a list of good GM's that can do the job well imo;
Ozzie Newsome - Ravens ( #1 )
Rick Smith - Texans
John Elway - Broncos
Scott Pioli - Chiefs
AJ Smith - Chargers
Jerry Jones - Dallas ( love him or hate him he is the force behind the Cowboys and has drafted his players for a long time now )
Bruce Allen - Redskins
Ted Thompson - Packers ( #2 )
Thomas Dimitroff - Falcons
Micky Loomis - Saints
Bill Polian - Available |
Well, cheers to you for naming a bunch of GMs although I'd have to hear the case in favor of some of those guys to believe they are proven to be good at their current jobs.
That said, it's hard to argue this because technically speaking any team with bad players and/or bad coaches automatically (by your definition) means the GM sucks too because he chose those guys.
The argument seems to state that any team's success must be a credit to the players which in turn is credit to the coaches which in turn is credit to the GM. To me, this begins to appear as a false argument derived of a teams record.
I wonder if either you or Merc would be confident enough to name a good GM on a bad team or a bad GM on a good team? Just a thoughtful challenge that would add something more substantial to your argument, I think. 
Either that or for all of you that make the case(s) against Ireland, it would be interesting to read what you think other GMs are doing that is so good besides drafting/acquiring a top-tier QBs. I don't want to put anyone on the spot--it's an honest question that I think needs to be answered by the 'oust Ireland' majority. |
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SUG
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 6453
Location: Alameda, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| phinmun wrote: | | SUG wrote: | | JCool333 wrote: | | Honestly, as much as I don't like a lot of Ireland's moves, I don't really trust Ross to bring in a good replacement. |
That's why I've been saying the most important person in the the equation is Philbin (the Head Coach)
I don't give a crap about Ireland or any new GMs "vision" or lack thereof.
1). Just scout & acquire the players Philbin tells you to.
2). Generate trades for draft pks when asked to.
3). Re sign the players Philbin ask's you to.
sug |
Well SUG,
It sure sounds like you described Jeff Ireland and his performance over the off-season.
My only advice is to you guys who are going to pile on Ireland after every loss is this: be careful what you wish for. Any new GM that comes in will assume the position of assessing the team and altering it's direction.
You don't fire Ireland and then hire a new GM without giving that new individual precedent to start making changes. You all want a guy who's just going to listen to Philbin, well, Jeff Ireland has done exactly that since Philbin has arrived. For all we know, the problem has been that he was listening to the wrong guy in Tony Sparano.
The point is, if we replace Ireland, it's unlikely we'll just cruise along like nothing happened. It's much more likely we'll get someone who comes in and starts screwing around with things Philbin has set. By all indications, Philbin has all the control right now, why would you want a new GM to come in and change that?
Usually that breaks apart ball-clubs. |
Well to be 100% honest with you I have been screaming for his termination 2.5 yrs ago.
And I vividly remember numerous back n forths with frank over this same topic.
(I prefer a HC to name his GM instead of the norm)
I have never liked Ireland overall pks as our GM.
If, as I hope, Philbins got final say as to the personnel needs & there is a "leash on Ireland" then I'm OK with that.
But I have been Irelands biggest critic here in this forum for his "Lack of Vision" for a long time.
sug
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Maddogg
Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Posts: 1119
Location: A Galaxy Far Far Away......
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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My karma has never felt good with Ireland as GM. When I drink heavily I love everybody even inanimate objects, but not Jeff Ireland. I go to sleep dreaming of Dan Marino and Don Shula but not Jeff Ireland. There's something that's causing the universe to drift out of balance....I think its Jeff Ireland.
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green4gulf
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1896
Location: TN, by way of Palm Beach FL
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| phinmun wrote: | | green4gulf wrote: | It's tough to find a good GM, no doubt, but it can be done and here's a list of good GM's that can do the job well imo;
Ozzie Newsome - Ravens ( #1 )
Rick Smith - Texans
John Elway - Broncos
Scott Pioli - Chiefs
AJ Smith - Chargers
Jerry Jones - Dallas ( love him or hate him he is the force behind the Cowboys and has drafted his players for a long time now )
Bruce Allen - Redskins
Ted Thompson - Packers ( #2 )
Thomas Dimitroff - Falcons
Micky Loomis - Saints
Bill Polian - Available |
Well, cheers to you for naming a bunch of GMs although I'd have to hear the case in favor of some of those guys to believe they are proven to be good at their current jobs.
That said, it's hard to argue this because technically speaking any team with bad players and/or bad coaches automatically (by your definition) means the GM sucks too because he chose those guys.
The argument seems to state that any team's success must be a credit to the players which in turn is credit to the coaches which in turn is credit to the GM. To me, this begins to appear as a false argument derived of a teams record.
I wonder if either you or Merc would be confident enough to name a good GM on a bad team or a bad GM on a good team? Just a thoughtful challenge that would add something more substantial to your argument, I think.
Either that or for all of you that make the case(s) against Ireland, it would be interesting to read what you think other GMs are doing that is so good besides drafting/acquiring a top-tier QBs. I don't want to put anyone on the spot--it's an honest question that I think needs to be answered by the 'oust Ireland' majority. |
I'm just saying, Finding a good GM isn't impossible, even if it isn't easy. It's like finding anyone else to fill a high pressure position and be succesfull. As for a good GM on a bad team? I would say I already named at least 1 between AJ Smith and Bruce Allen.
Bad GM on a good team? That doesn't really exist. |
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Jaytotha
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 3286
Location: Spokane Valley, Wa
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| green4gulf wrote: | | phinmun wrote: | | green4gulf wrote: | It's tough to find a good GM, no doubt, but it can be done and here's a list of good GM's that can do the job well imo;
Ozzie Newsome - Ravens ( #1 )
Rick Smith - Texans
John Elway - Broncos
Scott Pioli - Chiefs
AJ Smith - Chargers
Jerry Jones - Dallas ( love him or hate him he is the force behind the Cowboys and has drafted his players for a long time now )
Bruce Allen - Redskins
Ted Thompson - Packers ( #2 )
Thomas Dimitroff - Falcons
Micky Loomis - Saints
Bill Polian - Available |
Well, cheers to you for naming a bunch of GMs although I'd have to hear the case in favor of some of those guys to believe they are proven to be good at their current jobs.
That said, it's hard to argue this because technically speaking any team with bad players and/or bad coaches automatically (by your definition) means the GM sucks too because he chose those guys.
The argument seems to state that any team's success must be a credit to the players which in turn is credit to the coaches which in turn is credit to the GM. To me, this begins to appear as a false argument derived of a teams record.
I wonder if either you or Merc would be confident enough to name a good GM on a bad team or a bad GM on a good team? Just a thoughtful challenge that would add something more substantial to your argument, I think.
Either that or for all of you that make the case(s) against Ireland, it would be interesting to read what you think other GMs are doing that is so good besides drafting/acquiring a top-tier QBs. I don't want to put anyone on the spot--it's an honest question that I think needs to be answered by the 'oust Ireland' majority. |
I'm just saying, Finding a good GM isn't impossible, even if it isn't easy. It's like finding anyone else to fill a high pressure position and be succesfull. As for a good GM on a bad team? I would say I already named at least 1 between AJ Smith and Bruce Allen.
Bad GM on a good team? That doesn't really exist. |
Ozzie Newsome
Rick Smith
these would be the top 2 GMs in my opinion. They are stacked and they know how to grab talent.
JI is a guy that is afraid to pull the trigger in my opinion which is not the makes for a good GM. I would rather a GM pull the trigger and fail then not pull it and them succeed elsewhere. He is quick to trade players away but can't bring them in.
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