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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Priorities in Line Reply with quote

The Offensive line looks to me to be in pretty damn sad shape. Sadly, we have 2 very, very strong pieces in Long and Pouncey, and I believe Icognito will suffice. Beyond that, we could be in trouble. While Martin was a high pick, he has looked lost and out matched thus far. Artis Hicks just got yanked from the season and that leaves John Jerry, who I have some hope for, but has yet to show anything. The real problem, as I see it, is the depth. Or lack thereof, I should say. Here is the chart as I see it:


LT: Jake Long, Will Yeatman
LG: Richie Incognito, Nate Garner
C: Mike Pouncey, Josh Samuda
RG: John Jerry
RT: Jonathan Martin, Ray Feinga


If Long's knee flares up, who plays for him? If Martin proves to much of a liability out there, what do we do? Does anyone else see the horrific depth we have and have major concerns about Tannehill's ability to stay off the mat for most of the season?
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Fins20??SBChamp


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally would like to watch a few real games before I formulate my opinion about the O-Line. But I understand your concerns. But it cannot be worse than when Colombo was the starting RT.
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Deets


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't worry about Martin. Rookie offensive line generally start by looking lost. Nate Solder for the Patriots was Nate Holder for most of his rookie season and he wound up learning to play properly by the end. Martin will adjust by midseason.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, my concerns are less with the starters and much more with the lack of depth. I see nothing past the starters. Martin is a concern, for sure, but I agree, Deets, on the job training will allow him to grow. If he doesn't grow we are in deep doo-doo.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh...think about your question, Merc. It doesn't really make sense. Why would you think a team that struggles to field 5 decent players at the same time would be holding anything back as depth?

Do you expect to feel good about the depth when you don't even feel good about the starters? The 2nd string is the 2nd string because they got outplayed by the starters.

We won't feel good about the depth anywhere on this team until we have decent starters in place. Only then can we look at the depth and start judging what we've got.

Right now, if Jake Long goes down, we're probably flat screwed. I wouldn't try and make chicken salad out that that situation. Let's just hope it doesn't happen.


If Long plays well this year and we re-sign him and Martin's play continues to improve, I'll be very happy. If we're going into next years draft knowing we have decent play at the guard positions and we just have to add another piece or two to the line, fine, that's easily do-able. One G in the 2nd round and we'll be in great shape.
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Russ57


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin is an "interesting" player to me. IMHO he is weak and slow. That normally spells diaster for a RT.

On the upside he has good technique, intelligence, and anticipation. I was roasted before for suggesting he good be a decent "finesse" LT in a zone blocking scheme.

This upcoming game should be a tough test for him. Now if I sound down on him, or concerned, I'd be a lot more worried in I had the Texan's right side OL. Our DL could have a field day if we scheme correctly.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Uh...think about your question, Merc. It doesn't really make sense. Why would you think a team that struggles to field 5 decent players at the same time would be holding anything back as depth?

Do you expect to feel good about the depth when you don't even feel good about the starters? The 2nd string is the 2nd string because they got outplayed by the starters.

We won't feel good about the depth anywhere on this team until we have decent starters in place. Only then can we look at the depth and start judging what we've got.

Right now, if Jake Long goes down, we're probably flat screwed. I wouldn't try and make chicken salad out that that situation. Let's just hope it doesn't happen.


If Long plays well this year and we re-sign him and Martin's play continues to improve, I'll be very happy. If we're going into next years draft knowing we have decent play at the guard positions and we just have to add another piece or two to the line, fine, that's easily do-able. One G in the 2nd round and we'll be in great shape.


Maybe I wasn't clear. I see our first string as a mix of solid, even great players, and marginal talent. Beyond that I see near total scrubs. Any injury at all, and we are gonna get raped. Martin makes sense as a starter to me simply because he needs in game experience. John Jerry has shown flashes and he seems to have had a fire lit under his but in camp, so he could okay. But then there is nothing behind him.

In short, its COULD be bad with the starters, but it WILL be god awful if even one of those guys go down. I am alarmed at the depth issue.
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WaterBear56


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nate Garner and Josh Samuda are both guys that I feel will do fine replacing anyone but Long and Pouncey. Samuda reportedly fits our scheme and beat out veteran Cook while Garner's knock is injury concerns but he can play both guard and tackle at the same level as Incognito, Jerry, and Martin, without the upside of course.

Our line has a lot of questions like if they will be able to handle the scheme shift or if Martin will develop and if Pouncey will continue to develop or if Incognito will continue to have penalties and if Jerry will lose some weight but the overall talent is there enough so that our oline isn't a weakness especially if we can get half of the answers right.
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Deets


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno. For starters you see real talent. For backups you see guys that have gained the coaching staff's respect. If our coaching staff has good taste and a good system we can make the backups look nice. However, backups rarely look nice on paper.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WaterBear56 wrote:
Nate Garner and Josh Samuda are both guys that I feel will do fine replacing anyone but Long and Pouncey. Samuda reportedly fits our scheme and beat out veteran Cook while Garner's knock is injury concerns but he can play both guard and tackle at the same level as Incognito, Jerry, and Martin, without the upside of course.

Our line has a lot of questions like if they will be able to handle the scheme shift or if Martin will develop and if Pouncey will continue to develop or if Incognito will continue to have penalties and if Jerry will lose some weight but the overall talent is there enough so that our oline isn't a weakness especially if we can get half of the answers right.


Deets wrote:
I dunno. For starters you see real talent. For backups you see guys that have gained the coaching staff's respect. If our coaching staff has good taste and a good system we can make the backups look nice. However, backups rarely look nice on paper.



Merc, I think you're over-valuing the starters and playing down the abilties of the back-ups. The fact that you know John Jerry's story and that he was on Hard Knocks for a few scenes is making you think there's something more to John Jerry than there is to a similar player who's currently a back-up.

That's not fair. An honest evaluation of John Jerry would be that he's undisciplined, sloppy and would be the weakest link in almost any offensive line across the NFL.

My point is that you're looking at Jerry's upside and looking at the downside of the guys backing him up to try and find something to worry about. We are darn near as screwed with John Jerry starting as we are with him losing his job to a back-up. That's the honest truth.

As WaterBear56 said, our backups would be able to replace our RG and RT without too much concern over the course of this season. Incognito would be harder to replace but he's also got Long and Pouncey on either side which would make the replacements job easier.

Besides, Long and Pouncey, we really don't have anyone outstanding on the line. We'd be able to replace the other three and make it through the season a little worse for wear but still alive.

The fact you see differences between the other guys and our back-ups and call those differences humongous is only evidence supporting the idea that you're inflating the image of the guys who's names your more familiar with. I think we'll be able to live with the replacements so long as they aren't replacing Jake Long or Mike Pouncey.

I'd agree without hesitation that losing either of those two would be huge in that their level of play and production wouldn't be rivaled by a back-up.
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bpastermack


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know very little about any of these backups other than Garner, who has come in as a backup in the past and played solid. But I will say that Murtha and Cook were both solid backups according to most people you ask, but neither even made the team. Having said that, you have to assume the current backups are better than those guys were.
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Russ57


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno. I tend to reach the conclusion that the players we keep offer the best combination of........youth, low salary, upside, work ethic, character, and injury history.

I see a big change in how the current coaching staff values players and team makeup. I think they see no point in having a backup player, that is making decent money, that has proven they will never amount to starter material. I also think they don't care how good you are if you don't have the work ethic they desire. I think they value lunch pail guys, who show up to work, do their job, keep their mouth shut, get with the program, and stay out of trouble.

I'd be less surprised with a first round LB'er next year than WR.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ57 wrote:
I dunno. I tend to reach the conclusion that the players we keep offer the best combination of........youth, low salary, upside, work ethic, character, and injury history.

I see a big change in how the current coaching staff values players and team makeup. I think they see no point in having a backup player, that is making decent money, that has proven they will never amount to starter material. I also think they don't care how good you are if you don't have the work ethic they desire. I think they value lunch pail guys, who show up to work, do their job, keep their mouth shut, get with the program, and stay out of trouble.

I'd be less surprised with a first round LB'er next year than WR.


It still blows my mind that people in a civilized society think the only alternative to this idea--what you're describing Russ--is a team full of criminals and delinquents who, of course we all know make the best football players.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ57 wrote:
I dunno. I tend to reach the conclusion that the players we keep offer the best combination of........youth, low salary, upside, work ethic, character, and injury history.

I see a big change in how the current coaching staff values players and team makeup. I think they see no point in having a backup player, that is making decent money, that has proven they will never amount to starter material. I also think they don't care how good you are if you don't have the work ethic they desire. I think they value lunch pail guys, who show up to work, do their job, keep their mouth shut, get with the program, and stay out of trouble.

I'd be less surprised with a first round LB'er next year than WR.


I completely agree. The coaches seem to be willing to part with talent in order to create the kind of team they want. They've certainly shown that to be the case in nearly all the moves they've made this off season.

With that in mind, they seem to be going with their own young guys, not the perhaps slightly more talented players that don't fit their plan for building. We've certainly seen this before in the many rebuilds we've been through. Its the very reason I complain of the endless rebuilding cycles that come with high turn over rates at the coaching position.

As for the John Jerry discussion, lets just wait and see. I've seen a lot of Jerry and have taken a special interest when he was drafted. So my opinion is certainly based on more than a 3 minute Hard Knocks piece. He's clearly a lot bigger than ideal for this system, but he moves men when he wants to. That intrigues me.
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Maddogg


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think that our offensive line problems and for the most part all of our problems go back to our drafts.

There is plenty of blame to spread around for the overall talent level on the Dolphins. But the fact is we have not drafted well, add in the regime changes over the past decade and you lose the consistency needed for an NFL team.

Mr. Ross has to fully support a philosophy not for one to three years but more a course than will span at least five years before Miami can have an inkling of being in Super Bowl conversations.
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