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hemm68


Joined: 24 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know we've discussed trading up at some point in this draft. Is there a certain round that y'all were thinking. I'm looking at a draft chart trying to figure out what's viable
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

drd23 wrote:
Nucky wrote:
I really don't understand why this Manti Teo story is such a big deal ? So he had a relationship with an online gf. Yea it is a little weird I really don't get why his draft stock should go down because of this. Maybe I'm missing something, I don't see why we should care other than to get a good laugh if you find it funny.

If he was your BPA I'd draft him regadless.

Its mainly a big story because of how weird it is.

Society has have this picture in their collective minds that the star football players are the "big men on campus" and thus have their pick of all the available girls on campus. That Te'o seemingly became involved in an online relationship for over a year with a girl he never met and never saw (beside pictures on facebook and twitter) doesn't fit with that picture.

The inconsistencies in the story between what he is saying now ("I never met the girl. I was duped etc") and certain things he's said (and his family has said) in the past further creates intrigue on a human interest/curiosity level considering how large a part Manti playing on after her "death" added to the mythology.

As for the football side of this, it comes down to 2 things imo.
1) If he was in on this the whole (or even most of the) time and was using it to further his Heisman chances, that makes him a sociopathic liar and somebody that can't really be trusted. And
2) If he really is that naive that he was truly the victim of this hoax, how will he fit into a professional lockerroom with lots of older, wiser, more cocky men who are probably prone to bullying behaviour?

Either or both of those things go against his leadership and character, 2 things that are/were thought to be among his biggest strengths.


While I kind of agree with both of those points I just don't buy the first one. The news about his "girlfriend dying" came out in early September and at that point it was way too early to be considering a defensive player like Te'o a candidate for the Heisman. Of course on the other hand if he was in on it and was doing it for the publicity then it could have been a big boost for his campaign. Like I said before we'll probably never know what truly happened.

hemm68 wrote:
I know we've discussed trading up at some point in this draft. Is there a certain round that y'all were thinking. I'm looking at a draft chart trying to figure out what's viable


That sort of thing has to depend on who's left on the board in my opinion. If I had to take a guess it would be moving up in the 2nd or 3rd round. I could see a scenario where the Ravens would trade out of the first round too even though they don't really need the extra draft picks.
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drd23


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
While I kind of agree with both of those points I just don't buy the first one. The news about his "girlfriend dying" came out in early September and at that point it was way too early to be considering a defensive player like Te'o a candidate for the Heisman. Of course on the other hand if he was in on it and was doing it for the publicity then it could have been a big boost for his campaign. Like I said before we'll probably never know what truly happened.

FWIW it seems to be the prevailing thought among his former team mates/fellow Notre Dame students if the reports here are anything to be believed.

As for knowing what truly happened, I don't think we ever will because I just don't see what the incentive would be for Te'o to tell the full truth to the public would be.
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DreamKid


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Sandusky story is the saddest in the history or sports, this Teo story might be the oddest. No good out exists in this situation for Teo. He plays at what can be considered the second most cerebral position in football, and can not walk away from this without looking like a fool or a con who perpetrated a near sociopathic lie. Manti should just continue to lie, play the victim, and push on through to the draft. When you hear the "experts" like Mayock talk about maturity issues, this is the kind of stuff they're talking about. This is the same as a fight, a DUI, or some other campus problem. My guess is Teo fell for this, figured it out, and then did not know what to do. He isn't a city kid, he is a Hawaii simpleton who can play ball. I don't care about this at all, what I care about is how he can play lights out football during the season and then in the biggest game of his life do his best impression of Michael J. Fox trapped in a revolving door.
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DreamKid


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a reminder guys the East West Shrine Game is on this Saturday the 19th, along with the NFLPA Collegiate Bowl. They are airing on NFL Network and ESPN respectively, this is really the start of heavy coverage for the draft. Nothing beats Senior Bowl week starting on the 21st, you can check out the roster on their website. NFL Network will cover the Senior Bowl practices, with Mayock and Davis being the mainstay of their crew.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hemm68 wrote:
I know we've discussed trading up at some point in this draft. Is there a certain round that y'all were thinking. I'm looking at a draft chart trying to figure out what's viable

Really to me it always comes back to that top of the 2nd round. I really like a collection of talent that should be available at the top of the round from:
- Sam Montomgery, Arthur Brown, Matt Elam, Oday Aboushi, Eric Fisher (though Scott Wright has him going in the top half of the draft now), Margus Hunt, Zeke Ansah, Bennie Logan, Kevin Minter.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
hemm68 wrote:
I know we've discussed trading up at some point in this draft. Is there a certain round that y'all were thinking. I'm looking at a draft chart trying to figure out what's viable

Really to me it always comes back to that top of the 2nd round. I really like a collection of talent that should be available at the top of the round from:
- Sam Montomgery, Arthur Brown, Matt Elam, Oday Aboushi, Eric Fisher (though Scott Wright has him going in the top half of the draft now), Margus Hunt, Zeke Ansah, Bennie Logan, Kevin Minter.


Agreed. The top of the 2nd is typically where the best value lies. I can envision us trading back into the top 2nd, picking up a midround pick, and then trying to trade up from the late 2nd into the early-mid 2nd for another quality pick as well.
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alfalcone


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aussie_raven77 wrote:
Just a question on Te'o for you guys, lets say he slips all the way down to us how would we all feel about drafting him? I mean he wasn't the most elite athlete which we really need in coverage, despite him making the second most picks in the country. He's been productive but his draft stock has been massively boosted by his intangibles and this story seems to have destroyed a lot of them, is he worth taking?


Best case scenario Te'o's an idiot, worst case scenario he faked and exploited a girlfriends death for Heisman votes, neither of which are qualities I want on a player on the Ravens. I think he will be great in run support, but struggle some in coverage, a Brandon Spikes type so to speak.

Personally the only hypothesis on Te'o that makes any sense to me, and or could slightly restore Te'o's reputation is that is he is gay and was raised in an environment, Mormonism, and Notre Dame wherein it is quite difficult to be openly gay, and was thus ashamed, and used the girlfriend, and her ensuing death, who he created along with Tuiasosopo as an excuse to avoid the advances of the Notre Dame coeds, (though in my experience they aren't the most attractive bunch). There's no logical reason why the Big Man On Campus would need to use the internet to meet a girl, much less never skype with her and secondly if the girlfriend were just created for Heisman hype, it would have made much more sense for her to die in October / November.
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alfalcone


Joined: 25 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hemm68 wrote:
I know we've discussed trading up at some point in this draft. Is there a certain round that y'all were thinking. I'm looking at a draft chart trying to figure out what's viable


Jarvis Jones, is the one player I think it could make a lot of sense to trade up for. He should fall for a couple of reasons, Spinal Stenosis, he won't test well, and is slightly undersized, but he was the best player in the country on defense outside of possibly Jadevon Clowney, and could possibly be available after pick 10.
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DreamKid


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alfalcone wrote:
aussie_raven77 wrote:
Just a question on Te'o for you guys, lets say he slips all the way down to us how would we all feel about drafting him? I mean he wasn't the most elite athlete which we really need in coverage, despite him making the second most picks in the country. He's been productive but his draft stock has been massively boosted by his intangibles and this story seems to have destroyed a lot of them, is he worth taking?


Best case scenario Te'o's an idiot, worst case scenario he faked and exploited a girlfriends death for Heisman votes, neither of which are qualities I want on a player on the Ravens. I think he will be great in run support, but struggle some in coverage, a Brandon Spikes type so to speak.

Personally the only hypothesis on Te'o that makes any sense to me, and or could slightly restore Te'o's reputation is that is he is gay and was raised in an environment, Mormonism, and Notre Dame wherein it is quite difficult to be openly gay, and was thus ashamed, and used the girlfriend, and her ensuing death, who he created along with Tuiasosopo as an excuse to avoid the advances of the Notre Dame coeds, (though in my experience they aren't the most attractive bunch). There's no logical reason why the Big Man On Campus would need to use the internet to meet a girl, much less never skype with her and secondly if the girlfriend were just created for Heisman hype, it would have made much more sense for her to die in October / November.


Brandon Spikes doesn't struggle in coverage.
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Nucky


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
drd23 wrote:
Nucky wrote:
I really don't understand why this Manti Teo story is such a big deal ? So he had a relationship with an online gf. Yea it is a little weird I really don't get why his draft stock should go down because of this. Maybe I'm missing something, I don't see why we should care other than to get a good laugh if you find it funny.

If he was your BPA I'd draft him regadless.

Its mainly a big story because of how weird it is.

Society has have this picture in their collective minds that the star football players are the "big men on campus" and thus have their pick of all the available girls on campus. That Te'o seemingly became involved in an online relationship for over a year with a girl he never met and never saw (beside pictures on facebook and twitter) doesn't fit with that picture.

The inconsistencies in the story between what he is saying now ("I never met the girl. I was duped etc") and certain things he's said (and his family has said) in the past further creates intrigue on a human interest/curiosity level considering how large a part Manti playing on after her "death" added to the mythology.

As for the football side of this, it comes down to 2 things imo.
1) If he was in on this the whole (or even most of the) time and was using it to further his Heisman chances, that makes him a sociopathic liar and somebody that can't really be trusted. And
2) If he really is that naive that he was truly the victim of this hoax, how will he fit into a professional lockerroom with lots of older, wiser, more cocky men who are probably prone to bullying behaviour?

Either or both of those things go against his leadership and character, 2 things that are/were thought to be among his biggest strengths.


While I kind of agree with both of those points I just don't buy the first one. The news about his "girlfriend dying" came out in early September and at that point it was way too early to be considering a defensive player like Te'o a candidate for the Heisman. Of course on the other hand if he was in on it and was doing it for the publicity then it could have been a big boost for his campaign. Like I said before we'll probably never know what truly happened.


I see where you're coming from.

Only thing though, didn't his Grandmother die as well ? I don't why he would make up a story about his girlfriend dying too. I don't know what he might have lied about but if it was me it would likely out of embarrassment of being caught in an online relationship with someone who turned out to be a fake.

The way I look at is it's a minor "mistake". Compared to what players are doing these days with the DUIs and battery.
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BareYourTeeth


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Nucky wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
drd23 wrote:
Nucky wrote:
I really don't understand why this Manti Teo story is such a big deal ? So he had a relationship with an online gf. Yea it is a little weird I really don't get why his draft stock should go down because of this. Maybe I'm missing something, I don't see why we should care other than to get a good laugh if you find it funny.

If he was your BPA I'd draft him regadless.

Its mainly a big story because of how weird it is.

Society has have this picture in their collective minds that the star football players are the "big men on campus" and thus have their pick of all the available girls on campus. That Te'o seemingly became involved in an online relationship for over a year with a girl he never met and never saw (beside pictures on facebook and twitter) doesn't fit with that picture.

The inconsistencies in the story between what he is saying now ("I never met the girl. I was duped etc") and certain things he's said (and his family has said) in the past further creates intrigue on a human interest/curiosity level considering how large a part Manti playing on after her "death" added to the mythology.

As for the football side of this, it comes down to 2 things imo.
1) If he was in on this the whole (or even most of the) time and was using it to further his Heisman chances, that makes him a sociopathic liar and somebody that can't really be trusted. And
2) If he really is that naive that he was truly the victim of this hoax, how will he fit into a professional lockerroom with lots of older, wiser, more cocky men who are probably prone to bullying behaviour?

Either or both of those things go against his leadership and character, 2 things that are/were thought to be among his biggest strengths.


While I kind of agree with both of those points I just don't buy the first one. The news about his "girlfriend dying" came out in early September and at that point it was way too early to be considering a defensive player like Te'o a candidate for the Heisman. Of course on the other hand if he was in on it and was doing it for the publicity then it could have been a big boost for his campaign. Like I said before we'll probably never know what truly happened.


I see where you're coming from.

Only thing though, didn't his Grandmother die as well ? I don't why he would make up a story about his girlfriend dying too. I don't know what he might have lied about but if it was me it would likely out of embarrassment of being caught in an online relationship with someone who turned out to be a fake.

The way I look at is it's a minor "mistake". Compared to what players are doing these days with the DUIs and battery.


This "mistake" is anything but minor.

Laughing
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Daniel Jeremiah ‏@MoveTheSticks
One key to Ravens draft success: Ozzie always makes his scouts focus on what a player "can do" and not what he "can't".


Quote:
Daniel Jeremiah ‏@MoveTheSticks
When I was in Baltimore, we were obsessed with S.T.I Speed, toughness and instincts. If the prospect has all 3, tough to fail.


Yeah that seems about right.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alfalcone wrote:
aussie_raven77 wrote:
Just a question on Te'o for you guys, lets say he slips all the way down to us how would we all feel about drafting him? I mean he wasn't the most elite athlete which we really need in coverage, despite him making the second most picks in the country. He's been productive but his draft stock has been massively boosted by his intangibles and this story seems to have destroyed a lot of them, is he worth taking?


Best case scenario Te'o's an idiot, worst case scenario he faked and exploited a girlfriends death for Heisman votes, neither of which are qualities I want on a player on the Ravens. I think he will be great in run support, but struggle some in coverage, a Brandon Spikes type so to speak.

Personally the only hypothesis on Te'o that makes any sense to me, and or could slightly restore Te'o's reputation is that is he is gay and was raised in an environment, Mormonism, and Notre Dame wherein it is quite difficult to be openly gay, and was thus ashamed, and used the girlfriend, and her ensuing death, who he created along with Tuiasosopo as an excuse to avoid the advances of the Notre Dame coeds, (though in my experience they aren't the most attractive bunch). There's no logical reason why the Big Man On Campus would need to use the internet to meet a girl, much less never skype with her and secondly if the girlfriend were just created for Heisman hype, it would have made much more sense for her to die in October / November.

First off, let's not bring sexual orientation into this discussion.

Secondly, this is where I disagree with the masses. Suddenly Te'O is now open to criticism that most didn't have for him before. His coverage wasn't bad- it's above average for an ILB. His lateral agility could be improved if he played a little smaller, but his instincts are there to make up for that. But if Te'O falls to us in the first (I was never for trading up for him in the first place) I'm not going to shy away from taking him BECAUSE of these issues. He'll be treated the same way we do with most rookies... and we all saw what the motivation of 'falling from grace' can do to a player in the form of Vontaze Burfict.

My thoughts on the situation are that a) Te'O was scammed and fell for it. b) He found out about the scam later on, but was too embarrassed by it because the media focus was now on it. c) He decided to go about continuing the charade because of athlete pride and not admitting to being a 'weak man'. Football is well known for its pursuit of being overly 'manly'. We've seen many cases where athletes have been robbed and not said anything about it (until much later) because of pride.. and not wanting to sound like a... female dog to their peers and fans of the sport.

Te'O was under a microscope enlarged because of that girl's "death". He's also young- it isn't like this is him lacing up some good stuff before the combine.. this isn't him failing an idiot test. Te'O sure is the "big man on campus" but along with that comes an athlete insecurity that he can't trust 'normal' girls and that they only want him for his livelihood on the football field. It's easy to understand, especially considering his religious beliefs, him thinking that a relationship that is so closeted provides him some additional securities... that a girl suffering from cancer and potentially on her deathbed would be more likely to love him for 'him'... and therefore make him more trusting.

He was hooked, didn't admit it, and actually played it up because of pride. I call no big deal. All I know is this cat knows how to ball out on the football field. I won't trade up for him, but along with Arthur Brown, I call the top two ILB prospects in this class- 1a to 1b. If NFL evaluators drop, for all intents and purposes a clean, intelligent (he did go to Notre Dame... we're not talking Alabama), and instinctive player of his talents.. off or down their draftboard because of this scenario... then I laugh hard and pounce.

This dude made a decision and... with his team making it to the Championship game... that decision seems to have worked out. For all we know, had he decided to reveal this scandal beforehand, it causes an even bigger media distraction to the team... and cause players to lose their focus to drop a game. And I doubt Te'O would be involved in creating this imagination death/relationship because quite frankly.. it could serve no positive gain. His grandmother died, so how much more 'emotional' of a story would he need to put the media on his side for a Heisman run? And if not for the Heisman... why else? It just wouldn't make sense. So I'll completely ignore that possibility until it's given some sort of ACTUAL legitimacy.

If Te'O was #1 on my draftboard before this incident, I keep him at #1. This incident could happen to anybody. It's not something that one would think to be calculated in. And in terms of faking the emotions after the fact? Dude did lose his grandmother and he was emotionally abused from this incident. So I don't think it took much "acting/faking" when the cameras came on. The loss he felt was real... until it wasn't.

All of the above aside, I still tend to prefer Arthur Brown over Te'O... and I said that before I learned of this incident. I just think Brown has elite athleticism, elite toughness, and elite instincts. Whereas I feel like Te'O has only one sure thing from that list (instincts), one is questionably elite (toughness), and his athleticism is very good... but in an NFL so built on coverage... I can't place him on an elite platform. But he's a little stronger of a tackler than Brown IMO... and I think that makes the conversation very close.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it really all depends on how deep his involvement was, if at all, and how he answers the tough questions.

If he just simply got scammed, I don't look at him any different.

If he got scammed, like db24 said, found out about it but in order to avoid distraction during the season, played along until it was over, then I look at him only slightly differently. I would see the logic, but I would have told the coaches sooner (assuming he found out before December 26th when he told them). They would help him keep it in confidence.

If he was in on it pretty much the whole time, I don't want him. Is it as bad as a guy doing drugs before the combine? Of course not. Worse than a guy beating his real girlfriend? Of course not. But, to me, being a man of your word and having integrity is the absolute most important thing in the world and I wouldn't voluntarily bring in a guy who has shown on a national stage that he is not that man. It's not as if the guy was asked once or twice and he went along with it -- he went into detailed interviews recounting the life of the girl and his relationship with her. If he knew that whole time he was just BSing the media for the attention, then that is something I want no part of.

But, until all the details come out, which they more or less will, I'm reserving judgement.
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