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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^ @ STrid: Just saw your above rebuttal.. Guess I missed it before. But yeah we definitely agree on the safety position losing value and having a lower positional value to start anyway. I think most of our disagreements come into play in that you prefer a system much more heavily reliant on positional value than mines. I tend to prefer BNA with a lean towards positional value.

Of the above I'm not sure about the part of safeties outside the top 15... All I know is we got Reed at 24 and Polamalu went at 16, so they're at the very least exceptions to the rule.

Also of the above I don't think safeties succeeding will be because of their draft position. For instance Matt Elam is projected as a late 2nd round guy while others are projected well ahead of him, I think Elam most certainly is elite. And if he continues to be under valued I'd love to see us nab him in the 2nd and trade from our late 3rd into the early 3rd to attack one of those talented ILBs likely to fall a little.
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Now the actual reason I was visiting this thread. I know wide receiver isn't a show time need or anything, but I'm really starting to become more and more behind the idea of selecting Terrance Williams in the first round. One of the key issues with our receiver situation is that outside of Torrey when he's single covered (which is maybe only 20-30% of the time) and Jacoby Jones when Cam Cameron utilizes him... We don't have receivers that can get separation. Williams biggest asset is his ability to get separation and be a force IMO. We'd do well to consider him in the 1st. He's not an elite top 3 potential kind of WR but from where we're picking getting a talet like that would be highly unlikely. Williams however looks like he could be a Roddy White kind of option. Get him at the bottom of the 1st and get a top 5-10 WR who when single covered is going to get separation. A guy big enough to usually always have the advantage of size and who has a vertical to make up for any non-freakish size. Williams looks like the best of the Baylor 3 at the collegiate level and the other two WRs are doing a great job as rookies. Williams is on pace to beat the single season receiving yards in college football. I think he's the Ray Rice/Matt Forte of the WR position. I'd love to nab him if there are no impact front 7 talents to be had... He's the only WR that I would touch in the first round tbh.
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DontTazeMeBro


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm liking Kevin Reddick. Size is good. Looks pretty physical. Good instincts. Can shoot the gap and make plays in the backfield. They say he is a leader.

I love this linebacker in general. Especially if Andrew Jackson, Jonathan Brown, and Alec Ogletree declare.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other Maryland DT A.J. Francis looks like a great athlete. Really nice length.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Give me Terrance Williams and let's call it a day. Dion Jordan probably gets taken before we have a shot. And for some reason Williams isn't considered the best WR in this class. If Williams is around when we pick, we need to snatch him up. He looks like a Roddy White at the next level IMO. Adding his talent would successfully push our offense to the next level and make Flacco a more consistent option when on the road.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd dance around in my living room. But I think there's a good chance Terrance Williams goes top 5. Good chance he'll be a 2,000 yard receiver. He's got prototype size and I suspect he'll blow up the combine. Before you even turn on the tape that should put him well out of our range. But once you do you see him constantly blowing the top off the defense, making prenomonal catches, doing a great job tracking the ball and adjusting to it in the air.
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drd23


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He looks a fair bit like Smash Williams from FNL Laughing

I haven't really spent any time looking at WRs but he'd have to be pretty damn special for me to want to take him in the 1st given the relative lack of need we have at WR, the serious needs we have on D and the fact that there seem to be a number of quality WRs that could go in rounds 1-3
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Williams might be the #2 WR in the draft behind Keenan Allen. Justin Hunter could rise up pretty high up the boards too. All three of those guys have size and fairly good athletic ability+production to go with it. They definitely fit the profile of a 1st round WR. I would be happy with any of those three and maybe even Woods but I'm not too sure about him.

I think WR is definitely a need for the Ravens and not just a quality 2nd/3rd round talent - more like a legitimate #1 type of guy (they usually don't last past the 1st round). It might not be as pressing as almost any of the defensive positions but something has to change with the receiving corps. They are far too inconsistent for the offense to really get on a roll.

It becomes an even bigger need if Boldin gets cut but at this point I'm not sure that's going to happen. Either way he would be in the last year of his deal and I could see them taking his replacement in this upcoming draft. Jones will probably be back or have his contract re-worked but he doesn't get on the field much offensively anyways. Maybe if Cameron gets the boot things would change but I wouldn't count on that. Then there's guys like Doss and Streeter but they're probably not the caliber fo player you want starting. I like them but more in rotational/situational/specialist types of roles.

With Kruger's recent resurgence the Ravens might be less inclined to look for another pass-rusher. It's hard to say what kind of market there will be for him but if he goes back to the Ravens I doubt they spend a high pick on the position. I would still welcome some added explosiveness but I'm not getting my hopes up. Right now I would say ILB and DE are the two of the most likely high-round defensive picks. I really would rather they don't go with a S if Reed is coming back and CB doesn't seem likely in my opinion. I've seen some say NT is a big need but I don't think that happens either.

What do you guys think about the following possible first round (non-Teo) ILB prospects?

C.J. Mosely
Kevin Minter
Arthur Brown
Alec Ogletree

Three of them are underclassmen but this could shape up to be one of the best ILB draft classes in a long time including the guys projected to go a little later.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drd23 wrote:
He looks a fair bit like Smash Williams from FNL Laughing

I haven't really spent any time looking at WRs but he'd have to be pretty damn special for me to want to take him in the 1st given the relative lack of need we have at WR, the serious needs we have on D and the fact that there seem to be a number of quality WRs that could go in rounds 1-3


It's true, we have bigger defensive needs. But honestly, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that there is no better selection for this team than a true impact level WR. Our defense with a legit DC (after we fire Pees) should be able to bounce back to being a top 10 unit- I have plenty of faith in that. We're likely going to stay with Cam moving forward. And we just can't continue to have our team play the way it is. Moving forward our offense is going to have to step up. And like I said in the GDT, I think Torrey Smith outside of Joe Flacco is our most important offensive playmaker. If he goes down, we're screwed because now defenses can continue to play Boldin 1on1 with marginal success... and continue to send an extra man and not worry about our WRs getting separation. Our offense is so close to reaching the next level. We just need that other legitimate WR to pair with Smith that is going to force defenses to choose which threat to focus on. The best offenses in the NFL have two true threats... or Peyton Manning/Aaron Rogers. Our offense will never be truly consistent with out it. And if we're going to take our Super Bowl chances to the next level, it's what we need most to execute that.

We know Ozzie can find impact defensive talents outside of the first round. Plus the LB class is INCREDIBLY deep. I mean honestly, Michael Mauti could go anywhere from 2nd to probably 4th, his teammate Gerald Hodges is a playmaker with athleticism that I'd love to come to Baltimore, Khaseem Green is a guy I haven't watched yet but is high on Scott Wright's OLB list, Nico Johnson would be great as a thumper and has the athleticism to develop into a star if he figures it all out, Shayne Skov when healthy looked like a late 1st round player and he's getting back to where he was, I've heard good things about both Jon Bostic and AJ Klein as well. All of those guys could emerge as very good role players to studs.

So missing out on a 1st round ILB isn't a concern from me. I don't think the difference from Te'O to Mosley/Brown isn't that great and I don't think the difference between them and some of the above names is that great either. We're going to find a terrific LB in the first 3 rounds IMO.

Like I said, the Edge Threats I like will likely be gone... and with Kruger coming on with the return of Suggs and there still being some slim hope that Kindle can turn his career around and with us having that small school pass rushing guy on our PS... I think taking another ET with our first pick will be a tough sell if the guy isn't special.

So that leaves only 5-tech to compete with WR. That's the only other place I'd want to go with our pick in the 1st. Sheldon Richardson being the guy at this point that would be the best fit. But the way I see it, the Texans are going to be around for some time. The only way we're going to be able to beat them is by upgrading the consistency of our offense in conjunction with upgrading our defense. A playmaking WR like Williams to go along with spending the rest of our draft on the D is probably the best way to go IMO.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
Williams might be the #2 WR in the draft behind Keenan Allen. Justin Hunter could rise up pretty high up the boards too. All three of those guys have size and fairly good athletic ability+production to go with it. They definitely fit the profile of a 1st round WR. I would be happy with any of those three and maybe even Woods but I'm not too sure about him.

I think WR is definitely a need for the Ravens and not just a quality 2nd/3rd round talent - more like a legitimate #1 type of guy (they usually don't last past the 1st round). It might not be as pressing as almost any of the defensive positions but something has to change with the receiving corps. They are far too inconsistent for the offense to really get on a roll.

It becomes an even bigger need if Boldin gets cut but at this point I'm not sure that's going to happen. Either way he would be in the last year of his deal and I could see them taking his replacement in this upcoming draft. Jones will probably be back or have his contract re-worked but he doesn't get on the field much offensively anyways. Maybe if Cameron gets the boot things would change but I wouldn't count on that. Then there's guys like Doss and Streeter but they're probably not the caliber fo player you want starting. I like them but more in rotational/situational/specialist types of roles.

With Kruger's recent resurgence the Ravens might be less inclined to look for another pass-rusher. It's hard to say what kind of market there will be for him but if he goes back to the Ravens I doubt they spend a high pick on the position. I would still welcome some added explosiveness but I'm not getting my hopes up. Right now I would say ILB and DE are the two of the most likely high-round defensive picks. I really would rather they don't go with a S if Reed is coming back and CB doesn't seem likely in my opinion. I've seen some say NT is a big need but I don't think that happens either.

What do you guys think about the following possible first round (non-Teo) ILB prospects?

C.J. Mosely
Kevin Minter
Arthur Brown
Alec Ogletree

Three of them are underclassmen but this could shape up to be one of the best ILB draft classes in a long time including the guys projected to go a little later.

Well my opinions haven't changed on Mosley/Brown. I think both are very comparable talents. I think both are late 1st to middle 2nd round talents. I'd take either of them if we're on the clock and have no trade partners to move down and none of my other guys are available... but I'd still hope that we can go in another direction with how deep this class is at their position.

I haven't watched Minter. But I don't like Ogletree at all. IMO I don't think he's much if any better than Dannell Ellerbe. He doesn't have that sideline to sideline speed. He's not going to be a playmaker in coverage nor is he going to have the athleticism to stick with the quick RBs like McCoy/Rice. He's going to basically be a one dimensional run specialist that's not even elite in that dimension. I honestly don't understand the hype on this guy. There are so many LBers in this class that I'd take before I take him. Forget 1st round, I wouldn't touch him until the 3rd round at the earliest... and probably moreso the 4th round. He reminds me of James Michael Johnson coming out of Nevada who now plays for the Browns. A pretty good run specialist when you can keep him clean (hence Georgia's big DL guys). But when his DL fail to occupy blockers, he's not instinctive enough to knife through blockers or strong enough to effectively take on those blocks while making the play. With such a deep class of LBers I'd honestly be pissed off if we took this guy in the first. He'd literally be my least favorite pick in Ravens draft history.

In terms of WR. I'm not a fan of Keenan Allen tbqh. He's just too finesse and not athletic enough. I think at the next level, he's going to struggle to get separation... He has the hands you look for, but I don't see much difference between him and someone like Tandon Doss tbh. He's bigger, more physical after the catch, and a better route runner... but for what we need from a WR... he's not someone I'm a fan of. Heck looking at his collegiate tape, I see too many instances where he's making spectacular catches but yet he has a defense relatively draped on him. Sure that's a good sign of an amazing play, but it's also a bad sign of his ability to get separation using his athleticism.

And then with regards to Justin Hunter. I was a fan of his, but then I turned back on the tape and I look at his feet. When he's running in a straight line, they're beautiful. It looks like he's gliding across the ground, but as soon as he makes any sort of cut and tries to run horizontally... he has some of the heaviest feet I've seen out of a top level WR. His feet look comparable to Kenny Britt's feet coming out of Rutgers. The only difference between the two guys being Britt is a much more physical and strong player. Britt gets himself open with his immense physicality and not his feet. Hunter is a finesse WR, getting open with physicality isn't a part of his game. He's not even my favorite WR from his school. If we go WR from Tennessee in the early rounds I'm taking Cordarrelle Patterson because of his elite level agility and good speed. He'd be a project, but he'd have the potential to get the separation that you look for at the next level and could develop into a top 15 level WR IMO. But even then I wouldn't take him in the 1st.

To me, when watching the tape no matter what you look for in a WR... Terrence Williams is simply and flat out better than any WR in this draft class. Just like Dion Jordan I don't really understand why so many have Keenan Allen ahead of him... let alone Justin Hunter. If we're going WR, guys I like are: Terrence Williams, Cobi Hamilton, Cordarrelle Patterson... and then MAYBE Tavon Austin and Denard Robinson. With the last two, I like their ability to get separation, but when Flacco is inaccurate, he has a tendency to be inaccurate and high so I'm not exactly sure if Austin would be the best option due to his size... and with Robinson, I'd need to actually see him play WR before I would be willing to gamble on his ability there.

EDIT: And DaRick Rodgers if he can prove that he's over his drug abuse issues. He's not the greatest at getting separation, but like a younger Anquan Boldin he can utilize a combination of agility and strength to get open and make plays. He's also a big target for Flacco and a load to take down once he gets going. He's comparable to Dez Bryant in how he plays the game with quickness/strength, above average speed, and nice vertical ability.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope we can get Markus Wheaton from Oregon State. This guy is Mike Wallace 2.0. He has that rare track speed that translates to the field. The guy is electric everytime he gets his hands on the ball. Team Wheaton up with Torrey and we would have the most explosive set of wrs in the league.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
MAYBE Tavon Austin and Denard Robinson. With the last two, I like their ability to get separation, but when Flacco is inaccurate, he has a tendency to be inaccurate and high so I'm not exactly sure if Austin would be the best option due to his size... and with Robinson, I'd need to actually see him play WR before I would be willing to gamble on his ability there.

EDIT: And DaRick Rodgers if he can prove that he's over his drug abuse issues. He's not the greatest at getting separation, but like a younger Anquan Boldin he can utilize a combination of agility and strength to get open and make plays. He's also a big target for Flacco and a load to take down once he gets going. He's comparable to Dez Bryant in how he plays the game with quickness/strength, above average speed, and nice vertical ability.

No maybe about Tavon Austin for me. He's gonna be a beast. I think we should definitely forgo looking at the top WR's to go defense in the first round and then look at Tavon Austin in the 2nd. With all the bigger WR's, he could definitely get overlooked and fall to us in the second. He would be such a great weapon to add to this offense.

I really don't think we should worry about Flacco overthrowing him. It seems kind of silly to not take the best player just because Flacco might overthrow him. And I'm pretty sure that if he makes it to us in the second, he's probably one of the top players available, and one that can make an immediate impact. It's not like Derrick Mason was all that tall and Joe didn't have a huge problem getting it to him. Plus, Tavon can do more for Joe after the catch. Joe will figure out how to get the ball to him. Normally, I like to go with the height-weight-speed guys at WR too, but I really like Tavon Austin a lot.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MilleniumD2000 wrote:
I hope we can get Markus Wheaton from Oregon State. This guy is Mike Wallace 2.0. He has that rare track speed that translates to the field. The guy is electric everytime he gets his hands on the ball. Team Wheaton up with Torrey and we would have the most explosive set of wrs in the league.

Yeah, I just saw his tape... and I agree that he should be a target. Maybe not Mike Wallace speed, but he does have great explosiveness off the LOS. He also did a great job of gaining separation.

Since we're likely to keep Cam, the system isn't going to win us separation, so I think our only chance is to simply find players that can gain separation independent of the system. Elite athleticism usually gets that done, or great route running. Wheaton definitely has the athleticism to blaze.

But yeah, I still like Terrence Williams' complete game greater. Williams could offer a deep threat but also has the versatility to run any route in any formation you ask him to.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAVINGMADD wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
MAYBE Tavon Austin and Denard Robinson. With the last two, I like their ability to get separation, but when Flacco is inaccurate, he has a tendency to be inaccurate and high so I'm not exactly sure if Austin would be the best option due to his size... and with Robinson, I'd need to actually see him play WR before I would be willing to gamble on his ability there.

EDIT: And DaRick Rodgers if he can prove that he's over his drug abuse issues. He's not the greatest at getting separation, but like a younger Anquan Boldin he can utilize a combination of agility and strength to get open and make plays. He's also a big target for Flacco and a load to take down once he gets going. He's comparable to Dez Bryant in how he plays the game with quickness/strength, above average speed, and nice vertical ability.

No maybe about Tavon Austin for me. He's gonna be a beast. I think we should definitely forgo looking at the top WR's to go defense in the first round and then look at Tavon Austin in the 2nd. With all the bigger WR's, he could definitely get overlooked and fall to us in the second. He would be such a great weapon to add to this offense.

I really don't think we should worry about Flacco overthrowing him. It seems kind of silly to not take the best player just because Flacco might overthrow him. And I'm pretty sure that if he makes it to us in the second, he's probably one of the top players available, and one that can make an immediate impact. It's not like Derrick Mason was all that tall and Joe didn't have a huge problem getting it to him. Plus, Tavon can do more for Joe after the catch. Joe will figure out how to get the ball to him. Normally, I like to go with the height-weight-speed guys at WR too, but I really like Tavon Austin a lot.

1. I'm assuming this is a generalized statement, but to clarify my position... Terrence Williams is the only WR that I want in the first round. I think he has top 15 level WR potential at the next level. Outside of him, I don't think any guy is worth it... and honestly I think his value at the end of the first would be huge. Like DTMB has mentioned, this guy should be going much higher... but he's just coming from a small school (is Baylor even still considered a small school?) and doesn't have that insane H/W/S combination like you see with the Julio Jones' of the world. That's the only explanation I can think of.
EDIT: Just watched some Keenan Allen tape from 2011 as opposed to 2012, I thought he was much more explosive. So his offseason ankle surgery is probably what has made his 2012 tape look less explosive. He actually would be a nice fit for our offense... if he weren't going to be long gone. That said, I still prefer Williams to him as Williams reminds me of Derrick Mason in some ways, his route running is just so smooth.. and he tends to be very smart with his body to avoid the big hits most of the time... a guy like that is going to be more durable more often than not.

2. I didn't say that we SHOULDN'T take him. I'm simply saying that Flacco's obvious weakness has been throwing high. So I want someone whose going to have some vertical ability to him to make a play on some of those throws to make Flacco look better than he is on occasion. And really it's not a silly concept at all. If we find that a 2nd round WR is where we want to go and we have a choice between Austin and say... Markus Wheaton, well I'd prefer the team go with Wheaton because he's 4" taller, he's going to be longer limbed, and they'll probably have similar leaping ability... so that's probably going to be at least a 10" difference... and when you consider catching radius we could be easily talking much more. Hence the maybe. If there isn't a better option available at WR and if there is no other BPA candidate that we could go for defensively than I'd go Austin.

3. Derrick Mason wasn't all that tall, but he had a very nice vertical leap, probably something like 38" (I can't find any combine info for the 97" draft). Plus Mason still has 2" on Tavon Austin, which accounting for arm and hand length could easily be another 4+ inches, so we're talking at least a 6" vertical difference here in just vertical length... once again the catch radius will make it even more. So the difference might not seem like much, but it really adds up.

4. The H/W/S part is only part of my analysis. I think quickness and acceleration are just as important in our offense. Speed is useless if you can't get off the press coverage being thrown your way when teams face the Air Coryell offense. It's why each of the guys that I like at WR, they all have the speed capable to operate effectively in this offense, but also have the foot speed to get off the press using their feet. My top guys are the ones that have both the foot speed and the body control/strength to boot. But you did just remind me about a negative with Austin moving forward. He's only 172 lbs... beating the press could certainly be a concern for him. That and he looks much more like a dangerous slot option than an outside receiver guy. His size will make it tough for him to operate in that area. That along with the fact that if we retain Boldin... that's where we want him/Pitta/Dickson operating. I want a guy that can man the boundary at a high level as I think that is what our offense is missing most.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
But I don't like Ogletree at all. IMO I don't think he's much if any better than Dannell Ellerbe. He doesn't have that sideline to sideline speed. He's not going to be a playmaker in coverage nor is he going to have the athleticism to stick with the quick RBs like McCoy/Rice. He's going to basically be a one dimensional run specialist that's not even elite in that dimension. I honestly don't understand the hype on this guy. There are so many LBers in this class that I'd take before I take him. Forget 1st round, I wouldn't touch him until the 3rd round at the earliest... and probably moreso the 4th round. He reminds me of James Michael Johnson coming out of Nevada who now plays for the Browns. A pretty good run specialist when you can keep him clean (hence Georgia's big DL guys). But when his DL fail to occupy blockers, he's not instinctive enough to knife through blockers or strong enough to effectively take on those blocks while making the play. With such a deep class of LBers I'd honestly be pissed off if we took this guy in the first. He'd literally be my least favorite pick in Ravens draft history.

This paragraph confuses me. Isn't Ogletree the former SS converted to ILB who is one of the most athletic LBs in college football? Pretty much everything I've seen (both other people's views and the couple of games I've seen) says the opposite - that he is rangy and athletic but his weakness is in the run game.

That said, I do agree about being disappointed if he were our 1st round pick
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drd23 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
But I don't like Ogletree at all. IMO I don't think he's much if any better than Dannell Ellerbe. He doesn't have that sideline to sideline speed. He's not going to be a playmaker in coverage nor is he going to have the athleticism to stick with the quick RBs like McCoy/Rice. He's going to basically be a one dimensional run specialist that's not even elite in that dimension. I honestly don't understand the hype on this guy. There are so many LBers in this class that I'd take before I take him. Forget 1st round, I wouldn't touch him until the 3rd round at the earliest... and probably moreso the 4th round. He reminds me of James Michael Johnson coming out of Nevada who now plays for the Browns. A pretty good run specialist when you can keep him clean (hence Georgia's big DL guys). But when his DL fail to occupy blockers, he's not instinctive enough to knife through blockers or strong enough to effectively take on those blocks while making the play. With such a deep class of LBers I'd honestly be pissed off if we took this guy in the first. He'd literally be my least favorite pick in Ravens draft history.

This paragraph confuses me. Isn't Ogletree the former SS converted to ILB who is one of the most athletic LBs in college football? Pretty much everything I've seen (both other people's views and the couple of games I've seen) says the opposite - that he is rangy and athletic but his weakness is in the run game.

That said, I do agree about being disappointed if he were our 1st round pick

Watching the game, it was hard to follow him in coverage. Watching the tape, I see really good speed that doesn't translate into his sideline to sideline movements. Explosive when he's moving up field or trailing a play and while he has fluid hips, he doesn't track down the line like I've seen from the top LBers in this class. Ellerbe was a bad comparison as he has stiff hips and lacks the same speed, but in terms of sideline to sideline range... don't see much difference. And the point about taking on blocks, he doesn't look good at it.

He is nice in zone coverage as he reads the QBs eye well and has an outstanding vertical leap. I looked at his limited sideline to sideline ability in the running game and assumed it would also apply to the passing game. I'll admit, I wasn't as thorough in developing my opinion on this guy as maybe I should have been. He just looked soft enough on the plays I watched that I wasn't interested in giving him a chance. Especially with how hyped he's been, I was looking for immediate gratification when watching him play in the game. Instead I just saw him being swallowed by blockers or reacting to the play slower than I'd like.

But I stand corrected. Upon further observations he isn't as bad as I initially thought. Well he's not bad. He's pretty good. Looks in that Gerald Hodges range of good.
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