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Falcons @ Chiefs IT'S GAME WEEK DAMMIT!!!!
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Who wins?
CHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFSSSSSSSSSS!!!
51%
 51%  [ 20 ]
Falcons
41%
 41%  [ 16 ]
Manuela ArbelŠez
7%
 7%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 39

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onejayhawk


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to see our offense against something less than a top defense before I pass any judgements. Atlanta is going to make Drew Brees look human.

J
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nicfre2011


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

onejayhawk wrote:
I want to see our offense against something less than a top defense before I pass any judgements. Atlanta is going to make Drew Brees look human.

J


And the tap dancing begins.
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
nicfre2011 wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
So Jon Baldwin . . . . care to expand on his being the 4th WR option and not seeing a single target.. 21 snaps all game?

This is a guy who some KC fans beat us over the head w/ regarding how he's the perfect compliment to Bowe and is poised for a breakout season.


We have some stunning WR depth, wouldn't you say? Wink


That's what makes getting blown out at home in the second half so maddening. It isn't like our offense is built around the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" gameplan. But we completely fell flat in the second half and despite our "stunning" WR depth, we couldn't do anything.


if we actually had a capable QB our "stunning" WR depth might have a better chance to put up some more points. As good as Cassel played for the most part he's still limited in what plays he can make as opposed to finding the simplest open throw. He rarely makes something out of nothing (he's already done it more this year - preseason and the ATL game- than the previous 3 years). He limited in what he can do as a QB.


Yeah we have enough weapons now plus the running threat, that in normal game situations there are going to be guys wide open most of the time and Cassel will "look" good...and we saw that in the first half. He even made a few really good throws. However, when the running game is no longer an option and they expect the pass, that's when he's limited despite all the weapons that are "open" to a good QB, they are no longer open as often to Cassel.
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Arrowhead86


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OILCHIEFS wrote:
Arrowhead86 wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
I'm seeing a similarity between Chiefs philosophy as Patriots philosophy. Surprise surprise.

Patriots regularly have a poor secondary. It got to the point where Edelman played some CB last year.

I think it's just part of the way Pioli was trained. CB's aren't valuable . We let Carr walk and the pats lets Samuel walk.

Things probably won't change much in that sense. I still wouldn't pay Carr 10M not even close.


I would have! Carr had a really nice impact on Dallas in their game against the Giants. Someone earlier in the thread said he didn't look good - not how I saw it! He gave up 2 catches. One on a pick and the other he mistimed his jump. However his presence let Dallas bring 8 in the box and stop the run and STILL defend the pass. Carr and Claiborne were key to that game plan!

Imagine Carr and Routt outside yesterday - and really when Flowers returns I'd love him in a role like Charles Woodsen played for GB for a number of years. When GB would go nickle CW would move inside and he had a huge impact there.

/dare to dream

Sad



So you would put 17M dollars into 2 CB's? What do you think Flowers would say if we paid him that amount? I would love to have Carr but Routt didn't look terrible and I think out of all the options available to replace Carr, Routt was as good as we could get for a reasonable price.




I am not advocating Carr instead of Routt. Remember Routt was signed before we lost Carr. I'm saying I still would have signed Carr even after Routt!

While the reports are conflicting the two numbers that have been mentioned for the Chiefs caps space are 16million and 26 million. You know what Atlanta's cap space is???

ANYONE??

I do cause it's been a big point on the local radio here in KC in comparison.

ONE MILLION DOLLARS (actually I think it was 1.105 million)

Now ask me again if I would have spent the money for another stand out corner in a PASSING league and in a division that has PEYTON MANNING and PHILLIP RIVERS. And ask me that knowing we have ALL the CAP to have done it!

Cmon! And don't come at me with that money will be used next year for Dorsey and Albert.

Regarding Dorsey - in my view Jackson has passed him up and if Dorsey is gone next year.. so be it! We could have Shaun Smith in that role or Bailey or Ripoti. He's not special any more than he is not bad. (saying he's just average) No where near on Carr's value level!

Albert I'd like to keep - but they did draft a back up plan for him as well in Stephenson! Albert - the average LT that on Sunday gave up a sack strip to an old man wearing number 55 that some on this board weren't scared of! (oh btw - that sack strip happened on 3rd and 15.. 15 because on 1st down he shucked an Albert block and took Charles down for a 5 yard loss)

So yes.. I'd have dumped 17 million into the position because it would have greatly bettered the team's potential to win. You see what saving that extra 10m did right? It got you Reeves and a 40 spot dropped on this team at HOME!!!!
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol! That's the kind of post that turns me on.
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Rearviewmirror


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poe played 64% of the snaps
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nicfre2011


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
Poe played 64% of the snaps


Very nice. I have mentioned it before, but Poe's performance as a rookie starter after being touted by all of the draft experts as being the rawest of the raw (and not saying I disagree), to have him get the start at nose tackle and hold the point was a definite positive for me.
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Cutler06


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
onejayhawk wrote:
I want to see our offense against something less than a top defense before I pass any judgements. Atlanta is going to make Drew Brees look human.

J


And the tap dancing begins.


I'd call it back-pedaling, but tap dancing works !
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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OILCHIEFS


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrowhead86 wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
Arrowhead86 wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
I'm seeing a similarity between Chiefs philosophy as Patriots philosophy. Surprise surprise.

Patriots regularly have a poor secondary. It got to the point where Edelman played some CB last year.

I think it's just part of the way Pioli was trained. CB's aren't valuable . We let Carr walk and the pats lets Samuel walk.

Things probably won't change much in that sense. I still wouldn't pay Carr 10M not even close.


I would have! Carr had a really nice impact on Dallas in their game against the Giants. Someone earlier in the thread said he didn't look good - not how I saw it! He gave up 2 catches. One on a pick and the other he mistimed his jump. However his presence let Dallas bring 8 in the box and stop the run and STILL defend the pass. Carr and Claiborne were key to that game plan!

Imagine Carr and Routt outside yesterday - and really when Flowers returns I'd love him in a role like Charles Woodsen played for GB for a number of years. When GB would go nickle CW would move inside and he had a huge impact there.

/dare to dream

Sad



So you would put 17M dollars into 2 CB's? What do you think Flowers would say if we paid him that amount? I would love to have Carr but Routt didn't look terrible and I think out of all the options available to replace Carr, Routt was as good as we could get for a reasonable price.




I am not advocating Carr instead of Routt. Remember Routt was signed before we lost Carr. I'm saying I still would have signed Carr even after Routt!

While the reports are conflicting the two numbers that have been mentioned for the Chiefs caps space are 16million and 26 million. You know what Atlanta's cap space is???

ANYONE??

I do cause it's been a big point on the local radio here in KC in comparison.

ONE MILLION DOLLARS (actually I think it was 1.105 million)

Now ask me again if I would have spent the money for another stand out corner in a PASSING league and in a division that has PEYTON MANNING and PHILLIP RIVERS. And ask me that knowing we have ALL the CAP to have done it!

Cmon! And don't come at me with that money will be used next year for Dorsey and Albert.

Regarding Dorsey - in my view Jackson has passed him up and if Dorsey is gone next year.. so be it! We could have Shaun Smith in that role or Bailey or Ripoti. He's not special any more than he is not bad. (saying he's just average) No where near on Carr's value level!

Albert I'd like to keep - but they did draft a back up plan for him as well in Stephenson! Albert - the average LT that on Sunday gave up a sack strip to an old man wearing number 55 that some on this board weren't scared of! (oh btw - that sack strip happened on 3rd and 15.. 15 because on 1st down he shucked an Albert block and took Charles down for a 5 yard loss)

So yes.. I'd have dumped 17 million into the position because it would have greatly bettered the team's potential to win. You see what saving that extra 10m did right? It got you Reeves and a 40 spot dropped on this team at HOME!!!!



Okay so 23M into one position not counting the 2-3 other guys we keep. So your willing to put 19% of our total salary into 3 guys. I'd like you to find one successful team that does that. You won't.


And you can't say "Cmon! And don't come at me with that money will be used next year for Dorsey and Albert."

Why would I completely disregard two of our better players in contract years. Their backups have done nothing to prove they can start. If a team was ran like that they would continually end near the bottom.

There is so much more to look at then just 1 game man. It's a huge picture with so many moving parts.
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bigschmadt00


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OILCHIEFS wrote:
Okay so 23M into one position not counting the 2-3 other guys we keep. So your willing to put 19% of our total salary into 3 guys. I'd like you to find one successful team that does that. You won't.

I wonder what the Giants have in their d-line? I'd bet it's about $25MM. Tuck, JPP, Umenyiora, Kiwanuka.

All I'm saying is there is more then 1 way to skin a cat. We could have afforded to keep Carr by re-signing him about 2 years ago when was still an up and coming player, but one WE should have known was well worth the investment. Jason McCourty just signed what I would consider a reasonable extension more then a year before his current deal is up ($8.5MM per year). If we are so smart, we should have locked him up long before his deal came due. This philosophy of waiting and seeing is OK for certain folks, especially if you are waiting and seeing for character issues, but for guys who you know will show up every day the same guy, you simply don't wait until they become UFA's. We got DJ and JC cheap, we could have got Carr relatively cheap too IMO. I know I'm guessing, but you can't tell me in mid-season 2010 he wouldn't have taken a 5yr $40MM deal.
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nicfre2011


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigschmadt00 wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
Okay so 23M into one position not counting the 2-3 other guys we keep. So your willing to put 19% of our total salary into 3 guys. I'd like you to find one successful team that does that. You won't.

I wonder what the Giants have in their d-line? I'd bet it's about $25MM. Tuck, JPP, Umenyiora, Kiwanuka.

All I'm saying is there is more then 1 way to skin a cat. We could have afforded to keep Carr by re-signing him about 2 years ago when was still an up and coming player, but one WE should have known was well worth the investment. Jason McCourty just signed what I would consider a reasonable extension more then a year before his current deal is up ($8.5MM per year). If we are so smart, we should have locked him up long before his deal came due. This philosophy of waiting and seeing is OK for certain folks, especially if you are waiting and seeing for character issues, but for guys who you know will show up every day the same guy, you simply don't wait until they become UFA's. We got DJ and JC cheap, we could have got Carr relatively cheap too IMO. I know I'm guessing, but you can't tell me in mid-season 2010 he wouldn't have taken a 5yr $40MM deal.


+1

I wholeheartedly agree on this point. The only issue we might not be able to determine is if Pioli did honestly approach Carr and his agent about signing an extension before sniffing free agency and the Carr team refused. We probably will never known unless Carr comes out and says something in the media. I hate to say it, but I can't shake the feeling that Pioli may "mark" players that for multiple reasons (replacements, attitude, maturity, etc.) he feels he can live without. My feeling is that Carr and Bowe might fit into that category. I am also worried about Albert being on that list as well. In each instance the first action Pioli appears to make is to bring a possible replacement on board.

I must say, I hate to see young players like Daryl Washington, Calais Campbell, James Laurinaitis, and as you mentioned Jason McCourty to long term extensions before the players get to free agency and look at the prospect of losing foundational players like Carr, Bowe, and Albert.

I would rather see Pioli take a chance on some of the younger players that the organization feels can be foundation pieces on our roster (like a Washington, Campbell, or McCourty) and sign them to extensions and even miss on one here and there - rather than seeing our top players year-in and year-out walking right up to the line of free agency.
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Arrowhead86


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OILCHIEFS wrote:
Arrowhead86 wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
Arrowhead86 wrote:
OILCHIEFS wrote:
I'm seeing a similarity between Chiefs philosophy as Patriots philosophy. Surprise surprise.

Patriots regularly have a poor secondary. It got to the point where Edelman played some CB last year.

I think it's just part of the way Pioli was trained. CB's aren't valuable . We let Carr walk and the pats lets Samuel walk.

Things probably won't change much in that sense. I still wouldn't pay Carr 10M not even close.


I would have! Carr had a really nice impact on Dallas in their game against the Giants. Someone earlier in the thread said he didn't look good - not how I saw it! He gave up 2 catches. One on a pick and the other he mistimed his jump. However his presence let Dallas bring 8 in the box and stop the run and STILL defend the pass. Carr and Claiborne were key to that game plan!

Imagine Carr and Routt outside yesterday - and really when Flowers returns I'd love him in a role like Charles Woodsen played for GB for a number of years. When GB would go nickle CW would move inside and he had a huge impact there.

/dare to dream

Sad



So you would put 17M dollars into 2 CB's? What do you think Flowers would say if we paid him that amount? I would love to have Carr but Routt didn't look terrible and I think out of all the options available to replace Carr, Routt was as good as we could get for a reasonable price.




I am not advocating Carr instead of Routt. Remember Routt was signed before we lost Carr. I'm saying I still would have signed Carr even after Routt!

While the reports are conflicting the two numbers that have been mentioned for the Chiefs caps space are 16million and 26 million. You know what Atlanta's cap space is???

ANYONE??

I do cause it's been a big point on the local radio here in KC in comparison.

ONE MILLION DOLLARS (actually I think it was 1.105 million)

Now ask me again if I would have spent the money for another stand out corner in a PASSING league and in a division that has PEYTON MANNING and PHILLIP RIVERS. And ask me that knowing we have ALL the CAP to have done it!

Cmon! And don't come at me with that money will be used next year for Dorsey and Albert.

Regarding Dorsey - in my view Jackson has passed him up and if Dorsey is gone next year.. so be it! We could have Shaun Smith in that role or Bailey or Ripoti. He's not special any more than he is not bad. (saying he's just average) No where near on Carr's value level!

Albert I'd like to keep - but they did draft a back up plan for him as well in Stephenson! Albert - the average LT that on Sunday gave up a sack strip to an old man wearing number 55 that some on this board weren't scared of! (oh btw - that sack strip happened on 3rd and 15.. 15 because on 1st down he shucked an Albert block and took Charles down for a 5 yard loss)

So yes.. I'd have dumped 17 million into the position because it would have greatly bettered the team's potential to win. You see what saving that extra 10m did right? It got you Reeves and a 40 spot dropped on this team at HOME!!!!



Okay so 23M into one position not counting the 2-3 other guys we keep. So your willing to put 19% of our total salary into 3 guys. I'd like you to find one successful team that does that. You won't.


And you can't say "Cmon! And don't come at me with that money will be used next year for Dorsey and Albert."

Why would I completely disregard two of our better players in contract years. Their backups have done nothing to prove they can start. If a team was ran like that they would continually end near the bottom.

There is so much more to look at then just 1 game man. It's a huge picture with so many moving parts.


I'm not sure where the 23m number is coming from. I'm thinking thats the total for the CB position with flowers included right?

short answer: yes!!!

they are 26m under the cap according to one source and 16m according to nfl.com! The number is disputed (ownership claiming one number - players association claiming another) but lets just go with 16m. Thats with the current 53 we have right now!

So 16m and we add Carr become 6 million under the cap. The only argument against this is to use that cap money next year to keep other players like Albert/Dorsey.

Well remember last year whenthey were way under the cap and said (pioli said it) they did that to use for the upcoming contracts this year?! How'd that work out? Bowe franchised and Carr let go.

That's before we even mention - the cap will go up again next year won't it?

Why is it ok for Atlanta (and surely other teams) to play right around the cap number but not the Chiefs? Surely Atlanta will have players due next year as well - every team will. Every team will have to make tough decisions.

You have to plan for your division first and go from there. This is a QB strong division and we are playing in a passing era of football. If this was the 90's and the run heavy league we saw then.. Dorsey/Albert would likely value out higher. As it is though.. it's a passing league and Bowe/Carr weight higher!

6m under still with Carr. Atlanta (Dimitrioff as GM - the other Patriot front office guy that left in 2009 same as Pioli) is doing it with just 1 million in cap room!

2 guys hired in 2009 (Pioli and Dimitrioff) and 2 organizations that look vastly different in a game against each other.

BTW the Giants/Cowboys coach view is up today. I watched Carr. I was careful in my comments earlier in this thread about him as playing very solid.. now.. I have no problem saying he was outstanding! They had him following Cruz most of the day lining up on either the left side or right side to match up. On seldom occasions they played a zone but most of the day it was press coverage. The Giants eventually tried to counter this a bit by putting Cruz inside and Carr ended up on either Hixon or Nicks (including a key red zone 3d down with Nicks where Manning looked to him on a quick drop and throw but just had to throw it away cause he was blanketed).

And this was a home grown guy! They had no questions about fit or 1st hand knowledge of his ability like sometimes happens when you look at someone elses bigtime FA available.

They blew it with Carr. What's done is done but that 16m at minimum cap is still staring everyone in the face and the depth is not what it could be!

So.. long answer.. YES!!!
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People pay too much attention to cap space. We don't have a crazy amount of cap space because we aren't trying hard enough, we have a lot of cap space because we don't have many players that warrant expensive contracts compared to other teams. We got great deals on a few of our players who actually would have warranted big contracts.

If we had a better team, we'd have less cap space, not the other way around.
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Arrowhead86


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
People pay too much attention to cap space. We don't have a crazy amount of cap space because we aren't trying hard enough, we have a lot of cap space because we don't have many players that warrant expensive contracts compared to other teams. We got great deals on a few of our players who actually would have warranted big contracts.

If we had a better team, we'd have less cap space, not the other way around.


We did have an "expensive" player that warranted a big contract. Brandon Carr (Bowe too in my opinion but at least he is still here so that point is rendered moot)

So lets see using your logic above:

"If we had a better team (Carr retained to the secondary), we'd have less cap space, not the other way around.

Umm did you not realize you were advocating for Carr when you wrote that? Cause the tenor of your post certainly seemed to indicate otherwise.


edit: changed the word added to retained as it fit much better since he WAS ON THE TEAM!!!
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Cutler06


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

onejayhawk wrote:
I want to see our offense against something less than a top defense before I pass any judgements. Atlanta is going to make Drew Brees look human.

J


So you'd rather play inferior teams so you have a better chance of winning ? Most people want to beat the best to BE the BEST.
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