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Would you trade Long to Steelers for Wallace??
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SCREW THIS ..... wake me when one of you geniuses can identify what the value of having the top 3 left tackle in the league. He hasn't scored squat, he hasn't intercepted squat, no forced fumbles, no TFLs, NADA .... we SUCK and he's on the team, hoovering up cap space. And while we are running a zbs, screw him and everone else on our offense not named Pouncey, Martin, Tannehill, Miller and Bush.
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Blagasse67


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
SCREW THIS ..... wake me when one of you geniuses can identify what the value of having the top 3 left tackle in the league. He hasn't scored squat, he hasn't intercepted squat, no forced fumbles, no TFLs, NADA .... we SUCK and he's on the team, hoovering up cap space. And while we are running a zbs, screw him and everone else on our offense not named Pouncey, Martin, Tannehill, Miller and Bush.


The last 10 super bowl winners

Giants
Packers
Saints
Steelers
Giants
Colts
Steelers
Patriots
Patriots
Buccaneers

I can't name really any of those LTs. Matt Light for the Pats but he was far from top 3. I'd say all of those teams had an elite QB and good OL play.

Just saying, Doc has been right here for the last two seasons.
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Russ57


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll tell you the value if you actually care to listen and consider it.

Some players, like a Revis, can reduce the game to 10 on 10. Maybe Revis is your highest paid player and maybe the WR is the only team's. Still, 10 on 10 is easily taken care of in the game plan.

Now instead of Revis imagine a truly dominating d-line/olb type. Someone that is sacking and pressuring your QB all the time. Someone who is also capable of blowing up running plays in the backfield. This one player has done a lot more than made it a 10 on 10 game. He has single handedly impacted your passing and running game. He is in danger of putting your most important player, your QB, on IR.

Now if Jake Long can, all by himself, nullify that person....then what is he worth? Factor in his pro bowl percentages and his team first leadership mentality......and don't forget that he still performs and plays when he is hurt.

This is why Long must be extended ASAP.....or he must be traded this year. We can't afford for him to be tagged like solia (huge blunder) or get a team destroying contract like dansby. Right now he is a proven answer, to a proven need, and a necessity for a rookie QB.

Players like dansby, burnett, bush....not to mention all the dead money problems we have are the big problems. Ms dawn capologist is someone your anger should be directed at. Remember when we cut porter and had to rtake him back? Remember when we cut vernon thinking he would apply to that years money but we didn't undertand the rules?

This year almost doesn't matter. All we need is for tanny to prove he is the future and not get hurt...and extend long. 2013 is make or break....we will finally be out from under a lot of bad contacts...about 40 mill under the cap...and with almost nobody past 2014. If we make the right choices then we could turn the team around fast.

IMHO long needs to be restructed and extended asap....or traded for at least a high first. Dansby is making more and he isn't elite. Long is the ONLY elite player on the entire roster.
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Fender


Joined: 30 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blagasse67 wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
SCREW THIS ..... wake me when one of you geniuses can identify what the value of having the top 3 left tackle in the league. He hasn't scored squat, he hasn't intercepted squat, no forced fumbles, no TFLs, NADA .... we SUCK and he's on the team, hoovering up cap space. And while we are running a zbs, screw him and everone else on our offense not named Pouncey, Martin, Tannehill, Miller and Bush.


The last 10 super bowl winners

Giants
Packers
Saints
Steelers
Giants
Colts
Steelers
Patriots
Patriots
Buccaneers

I can't name really any of those LTs. Matt Light for the Pats but he was far from top 3. I'd say all of those teams had an elite QB and good OL play.

Just saying, Doc has been right here for the last two seasons.


Umm... All Pro David Deal? Pro Bowler Jermon Bushrod? Pro Bowler Chad Clifton? Obviously a top LT isnt a necessity to becoming a SB champ, but you dont get very far with garbage either.

Jake Long isnt going to garner a Herschel Walker type value. His value is his leadership, his play and his work ethic. He is exactly the kind of player and teamate you want when rebuilding a roster.

Lastly where is the evidence that Jake cannot successfully transition into a elite blocker in a ZBS? This is the same crap that was spewed when they said his pass-blocking would be a liability (coming out of college) - because he lacked lateral agility and mobility, but he proved to be one of the best pass-blockers in the league.
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bpastermack


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all Jake Long can't neutralize any one player. Not until you decide to start having him shadow a player on defense and always line up on his side. It's become far too easy to game plan around an elite LT in the NFL. At best Jake makes it so teams can't get out our QB's blind side and have to come in from different angles that are easier for the QB to see. And on top of that he makes running the ball to the left side a little easier than is typical.

Is that worth the 16 mil he makes or will make next year? Personally, I say no. I am a huge proponent of the O-line. As a former Running Back in college, I understood that most of the success of the offense all starts in the trenches. But what I also understood was that I would MUCH rather play behind 5 above average O-linemen, than 3 below average ones, and 2 All Pro's! An o-line is only as strong as it's weakest link. In my opinion the effectiveness of the O-line as a whole comes from these areas, and in this order...

1. Who is the weakest link? Defenses can easily game plan to take advantage of a weakness in an O-line and nullify it's strengths. If you are running a 7 step drop and one guy lets his guy through too quickly every other time, then it won't matter how good your LT is.

2. Continuity in the system. This is important, and has been a factor for Miami for quite some time, and could certainly be an argument for hanging on the Long for as long as you can. But if you decide he isn't going to be viable long term because he is too expensive for the position, then I'd rather see him traded now than down the road. We have to start making sure we have guys in the system who are going to be around a long time. Changing out half the O-line every year will assure limited success at best.

3. Scheme Fit. Can Jake play LT in a West Coast offense with a ZBS? Absolutely, and at a pretty high level in my opinion. But I will say this, an elite LT becomes even less valuable in this particular scheme. In particular one who can really mash people in the run game, and isn't the quickest LT in the game. Not the slowest by far, but his quickness wouldn't be something I consider elite. Probably above average for an NFL starter.

There is no way Jake Long is worth 16 mil to this offense. He just isn't. There would be better ways to spend that money, no doubt about it. Shoot, we could bring in an above average LT, AND an elite RG for that kind of money. But here is my question, who would we replace him with? Where is that elite RG and above average LT going to come from? Do we think these guys fall from the ceiling? Can we just draft a couple of guys next year and know they will fill the void?

The cap is always looming in the NFL, but it's obvious we plan to build through the draft, and in my opinion, until we have a bunch of elite talent on our roster that we can't afford to keep around, I'd rather overspend on what we have for the time being, and continue to draft better talent. Because if we get rid of Jake Long expecting to grab a Free Agent next year, he will be overpriced or washed up. There is a reason Free Agents are Free Agents. I don't think trading Long is a good idea, especially since we are starting a rookie QB, who needs to gain some confidence.

The only way I would be OK with it is if one of our guys internally stepped up enough to be considered an above average LT for our scheme, or part of the trade included trading him for at least an average starting caliber LT, and picks or other players on top of it.

I will say though that the win loss totals of teams with the best 5 LT's in the NFL, and the teams with the worst 5 LT's in the game proves that it is simply not a high worth position like some people think. I've done the numbers based on PFF scores, and based on salaries, and both had negative correlations. In other words, the better/higher paid LT's had worse records over the past few years, than the worst ones did.

If you look at QB's that way by comparison, there is a HUGE correlation!
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Clutch


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
SCREW THIS ..... wake me when one of you geniuses can identify what the value of having the top 3 left tackle in the league. He hasn't scored squat, he hasn't intercepted squat, no forced fumbles, no TFLs, NADA .... we SUCK and he's on the team, hoovering up cap space. And while we are running a zbs, screw him and everone else on our offense not named Pouncey, Martin, Tannehill, Miller and Bush.


Ah so production really means squat. Pouncey did nothing his first year (ints, tds, ff etc), Martin is a rook (done nothing and won't add anything to ints, tds, ff, etc) but they are cheap. What happens when their contract is up?? Then they are expendable? Really?

How bout this, how many times has an elite LT given the qb extra time to make an important throw? How many times has he protected the blind side from a forced fumble? How many times has he held up his guy to avoid the tackle for loss? My guess is more times than the bum that was blocking for Sam Bradford.

Why don't you just call this what it is, these are your faves, this is the scheme you'd like to use and in YOUR OPINION you feel Jake could leave with a small return and you would feel good. We could then address his small hole he left in the Oline with a free agent or draft pick. Thats it.

But don't try to say that money should be tied up to production. He is giving you elite production. The comments I have read in the past is, injury history. Every player is one hit away from being dealt a serious injury. You can't bank on that either way.

Matt Light gets no credit. But he was a great LT. Their All Pro guard, was a wreck in the two most recent SB's yet he is lauded as their best Olineman. True farce.

Tom Brady is one of the best in the league when he has time, there may not be anyone better. When he faces pressure, he struggles, like most. So why would we want average protection? In the playoffs you usually play against the elite teams. Usually those teams have elite pass rush ect. You need to combat that.

BPaster, alot of the top DE's don't switch sides. I agree they should if there is a mismatch to be had, but it must be they just play RDE or LDE. LOLB or ROLB. I agree with the theory, but you very rarily see it in the actual games. Hence why the Steelers have Woodley and Harrison. Pass rush from both sides, tough to combat that. And that is why they are so good year in and year out.

$16 mill is a lot for one position outside of QB. However, if you have a first contract player playing at an elite level (this is where drafting comes into play), making only 2 mill (per say), then you are able to average the cost at the position. When you start paying below average rookies 2 mill to suck, well thats where you get into trouble.

At this point, the Fins don't have alot of money tied up on studs. Bush, Burnett, Dansby, Solai all have to be looked as expendables. They make way too much for my liking. Just my opinion though.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea why a team like Miami wants to trade away a blue chip player. As far as I am concerned, the goal here is to accumulate blue chip players, not discard them. What has Brandon Marshall trade gotten us? Michael Egnew and a 3rd round pick? What did letting Wes Welker get away give us? Anyone? There is a lot of talk about acquiring draft picks, but we have a front office that only seems to be able to find gems in the first round. The shiniest of those gems is Jake Long. Why would we continually send our top players away for capital that is regularly mis-managed?

The idea that Jake Long should be winning games for us is absurd. No single player in the history of the league has ever won a game by himself. Not even QB's carry a team. If they did, Miami would have rows of Lombardi trophies lining the halls of their facilities thanks to Dan Marino. It seems we have our QB, now we should be adding pieces. Jake Long is one of those pieces. I simply don't understand the logic in sending him packing at all.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
I have no idea why a team like Miami wants to trade away a blue chip player. As far as I am concerned, the goal here is to accumulate blue chip players, not discard them.


Accumulation of blue chip players is a practice best saved for baseball. You can't put 22 blue chip players on one NFL roster. He's been on our line for the very same years that we've been saying our line sucks.

Mercury22 wrote:

What has Brandon Marshall trade gotten us? Michael Egnew and a 3rd round pick?


You know you can't judge that trade now.

Mercury22 wrote:

What did letting Wes Welker get away give us? Anyone?


He was never "blue chip" as a dolphin. He wasn't even Davonne Bess.

Mercury22 wrote:

The idea that Jake Long should be winning games for us is absurd.


This is the very idea that makes his salary absurd.

Mercury22 wrote:

No single player in the history of the league has ever won a game by himself. Not even QB's carry a team. If they did, Miami would have rows of Lombardi trophies lining the halls of their facilities thanks to Dan Marino. It seems we have our QB, now we should be adding pieces. Jake Long is one of those pieces. I simply don't understand the logic in sending him packing at all.


No one will address the fact that as great as he is, his skill set is not needed for the type of offense we run to be successful. Until this happens, all i can say is 1000% yes ... he is a great LT ... How's that working out for us ?
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doc,


Serious question...you might know the answer to this.

With Jake Long's free agency looming is it safe to say that his salary is going to go up? Will the rookie wage scale actually undermine the bargaining power to big free agents enough to drive his salary down a little bit?

Let's say, hypothetically, that Jake Long surprises us and we're both asking for for this team to re-sign him...what would be contract look like? Do you have an idea of what type of money we're actually talking?
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Doc,


Serious question...you might know the answer to this.

With Jake Long's free agency looming is it safe to say that his salary is going to go up? Will the rookie wage scale actually undermine the bargaining power to big free agents enough to drive his salary down a little bit?

Let's say, hypothetically, that Jake Long surprises us and we're both asking for for this team to re-sign him...what would be contract look like? Do you have an idea of what type of money we're actually talking?


You know how as a kid, if your parents told you your hair cut looked stupid you could live with it. But if your friends thought it was stupid, you where at the barber that same day.

Well the miami dolphins are jake long's parents. He's not gonna listen to us tell him he's overpaid. The rest of the NFL will have to tell him.
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Fender


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
SCREW THIS ..... wake me when one of you geniuses can identify what the value of having the top 3 left tackle in the league. He hasn't scored squat, he hasn't intercepted squat, no forced fumbles, no TFLs, NADA .... we SUCK and he's on the team, hoovering up cap space. And while we are running a zbs, screw him and everone else on our offense not named Pouncey, Martin, Tannehill, Miller and Bush.
All of this hyperbole and tantrum throwing let's me know immediately that this post is full of right and the indisputable.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:


Accumulation of blue chip players is a practice best saved for baseball. You can't put 22 blue chip players on one NFL roster. He's been on our line for the very same years that we've been saying our line sucks.


I never said anything about 22 blue chip players. I'd settle for two. Currently we have one. I see no reason to trade him for non-blue chip players.

dolphinologist wrote:


You know you can't judge that trade now.


I can judge it now. I can also judge it again later and my opinion can change. Today, the trade looks like total bunk.

dolphinologist wrote:

He was never "blue chip" as a dolphin. He wasn't even Davonne Bess.


You are wrong about this. Welker caught 67 balls his last season in Miami and only one player in NFL history, Gale Sayers, had more all-purpose yards in his first three NFL seasons than Welker did with the Dolphins; Welker also holds the Dolphins' all-time records for total kickoff returns, kickoff return yardage, total punt returns, and return touchdowns. Sadly, once again, Miami was in a "rebuilding" mode then and the logic was that he wouldn't fit the system well in Miami. So we let go. Its nearly identical to what you are proposing. Long doesn't fit, we are in a rebuilding scheme and he isn't winning us games. The Welker trade was dumb then and a Long trade would be even dumber, IMHO.


dolphinologist wrote:

This is the very idea that makes his salary absurd.


Football is a team sport. It takes many pieces to win. Some of those pieces are more expensive than others. Jake Long happens to be an expensive piece. In exchange you get the the best offensive lineman in the league.



dolphinologist wrote:

No one will address the fact that as great as he is, his skill set is not needed for the type of offense we run to be successful. Until this happens, all i can say is 1000% yes ... he is a great LT ... How's that working out for us ?


No disrespect, but "says you". He has yet to play in the system in a regular season game. People said time and time again that Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor couldn't play in a 3-4. They both excelled. People said that Randy Starks couldn't be a NT. He was fine. As for as how is that working for us? I say its been working well. Jake Long is delivering. He is giving us the best LT in the league. He is at the middle of a Hall of Fame career if he keeps it going.


You simply can't tie team record to single individuals. Its so short sighted. Are the Vikings stupid to keep Adrian Peterson? Should the Colts have cut ties with Dwight Freeney because they were the worst team in the league last year? Should the Panthers cut ties with Cam Newton because they only won a small handful of games last year? Did Barry Sanders suck because he never won a Superbowl? Its a fools game to tie team record to one players performance. QB is your best shot, but even that falls far short of convincing. Teams win football games, not single players. As my signature below says, "22 players are involved in every football play. To value precisely the activity of any one of them, it is first necessary to account for the actions of the other 21." Jake Long carries his water and then some. He is worth every penny he earns. Trading him makes us worse, not better. You build by adding talent not by subtracting. Its far to early to determine if Jake Long will flourish in this system or not. What we do now is that he is only player on the Dolphins to be a serious consideration for the best at his position in the league and protecting the blind side of our QB seems like a pretty good place to spend some of our cap.
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Blagasse67


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read another article talking about how trading Jake Long for Mike Wallace makes a lot of sense for both teams.

While we love Jake Long and what he brings, Mike Wallace would add big play ability and TDs.

Jake Long is great for our Run blocking but we can't run the ball as much as we did and expect to win every week. That's what Sparano did.

Jake Long would help out the Steelers horrible OL. This allows us to not pay Jake Long a big contract. This will allow us to Use the money on a playmaker we need.

Mike Wallace would give us he speedster playmaker and allow the steelers to use that money on a needed position. The steelers are deep at WR right now.

Really the trade makes sense for both teams.
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Clutch


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blagasse67 wrote:
I read another article talking about how trading Jake Long for Mike Wallace makes a lot of sense for both teams.

While we love Jake Long and what he brings, Mike Wallace would add big play ability and TDs.

Jake Long is great for our Run blocking but we can't run the ball as much as we did and expect to win every week. That's what Sparano did.

Jake Long would help out the Steelers horrible OL. This allows us to not pay Jake Long a big contract. This will allow us to Use the money on a playmaker we need.

Mike Wallace would give us he speedster playmaker and allow the steelers to use that money on a needed position. The steelers are deep at WR right now.

Really the trade makes sense for both teams.


I like Wallace's big play ability. However, I think he asking for a kings ransom, as a prince. He is not one of the games best WR's. Jake is one of the top LT's in the game.

Second, if you are moving Jake before the trade deadline, who is going to play T? It will probably take Wallace all season just to learn the offense, so we aren't really gaining anything, and we'll have to pay him big bucks to stay. See Anthony Armstrongs production. He hasn't learned the offense, yet. No familarity with RyanT. Wallace would be similar for this season.

At this point, I would rather just draft our own guy next year, or sign Wallace if they let him walk.

Someone pointed out the Fins have like $55 mill under the cap. We are going to be able to pay Jake and have cash to spend on other areas. No need to do anything but evaluate right now. Guys like Wallace can be had anytime in the draft, you just need to commit to drafting the position. Elite LT's don't fall very far. Tough to get, tougher to replace.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blagasse67 wrote:
I read another article talking about how trading Jake Long for Mike Wallace makes a lot of sense for both teams.

While we love Jake Long and what he brings, Mike Wallace would add big play ability and TDs.

Jake Long is great for our Run blocking but we can't run the ball as much as we did and expect to win every week. That's what Sparano did.

Jake Long would help out the Steelers horrible OL. This allows us to not pay Jake Long a big contract. This will allow us to Use the money on a playmaker we need.

Mike Wallace would give us he speedster playmaker and allow the steelers to use that money on a needed position. The steelers are deep at WR right now.

Really the trade makes sense for both teams.


I want to agree with you now. But it feels like that ship has sailed. Who would play LT for us this season. This is the kind of trade that should be made in the offseason.
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