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Bonanza23
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
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 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| bigdogsandiego wrote: | | DD, that is your assertion as I never mentioned Decastro! I am asserting simply this year's draft will be the end of Holmgren. |
If Holmgren is let go it's because Joe Banner is brought in not because of the draft. Besides I'm pretty sure Holmgren isn't responsible for the draft, Heckert is.
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bulldog
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 4383
Location: Salem
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bigdogsandiego wrote: | | DD, that is your assertion as I never mentioned Decastro! I am asserting simply this year's draft will be the end of Holmgren. |
The only thing you mentioned being the end of holmgren is that he drafted Weeden..
So let me ask you. Why would this draft, mainly Weeden, cause Haslam to fire Holmgrem? A guy that has an un equaled resume when it comes to coaching QB's. Why would a business person/expert fire someone with such a great resume?
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ditchdigger
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 14043
Location: Columbus, OH
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| bigdogsandiego wrote: | | DD, that is your assertion as I never mentioned Decastro! I am asserting simply this year's draft will be the end of Holmgren. |
OK, I'll bite.
| bigdogsandiego wrote: | | Heckert should have done the last year of rebuilding particularly the O and D line for the decade. Yes, we all know we need a franchise QB. Weeden is still unknown but McCoy/Wallace are known. My opinion is Holmgren bet the house on Weeden and Haslam will have to account for this decision by showing him the door. |
If not DeCastro, then who are you talking about?
Riley Reiff? Kevin Zeitler? Derek Wolfe?
Besides DeCastro, those are the only offensive and defensive linemen that were drafted between 22-37. I'm not counting Mercilus or Perry, since they are both playing linebacker and it is obvious that we wouldn't draft a RDE this year after signing Frostee Rucker.
Now if I'm Haslam, I would fire everybody for passing on Weeden to take a lineman.
Why? Rule #1 of the draft: If you don't have a franchise QB and have a chance to get one, you take him.
You can debate til the cows come home about whether or not you think Weeden is a franchise QB, but it's clear that the front office thinks he is or they woulnd't have drafted him in the first round.
So please, try again to explain to me why your opinion and your simple assertion isn't dumb.
Better yet, explain to me how our draft this year was an act of desperation and not part of a bigger plan to stack the roster with young players who the front office believes fit the system. |
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bulldog
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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Location: Salem
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ditchdigger wrote: | | Better yet, explain to me how our draft this year was an act of desperation and not part of a bigger plan to stack the roster with young players who the front office believes fit the system. |
This. This is what needs explained. His question is based on an opinion towards an event. So there isn't a real answer to it.
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MalcolmBrown
Joined: 26 Jul 2011
Posts: 250
Location: 2012 Adopt a Brownie: Ben Watson (2012 Stats: 39 Rec, 390 Yds, 3 TD, 10 YPC, 19 1DN)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| bulldog wrote: | | ditchdigger wrote: | | Better yet, explain to me how our draft this year was an act of desperation and not part of a bigger plan to stack the roster with young players who the front office believes fit the system. |
This. This is what needs explained. His question is based on an opinion towards an event. So there isn't a real answer to it. |
After reading all of this, I do believe that's what it has come down to. Someone didn't like the Brown's draft. Unfortunately there is no proof yet that it was a bad draft. We don't have a record to speak of, showing the effectiveness of the 2012 draft, combined with the previous years draft classes. So if you don't like the picks because you think we could have had somebody else more important, IT IS TOO EARLY TO SAY I TOLD YOU SO, and with that in mind, if you don't like it, then I don't have a problem with it being said, but to say the results will be bad just because you don't like it, with nothing substantial (like a W-L record) yet, is just absurd.
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Entropy
Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 1909
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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When Haslam comes out and says "I fired Mike Holmgren because of the 2012 draft" then your opinion will not be dumb, and also there will be monkeys flying out ...nevermind
Anyway, if and when Holmgren loses his job it will have absolutely nothing to do with the 2012 draft. But I get it, you wanted to draft other players. I suggest you work hard, make a billion dollars, buy your own team, and draft the players you want with your super genius NFL player assessment skills (like reading draft websites).
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bulldog
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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brownsfan214
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 1024
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: This year's draft will show Holmgren the door! |
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| DawgX wrote: | | brownsfan214 wrote: | | I feel that Pinkston and Lauvao were/are much bigger liabilties at the guard position than whoever (i forgot) we had at RT. |
I strongly disagree with Pinkston being a bigger liability than Pashos and the other RTs last season.
Anyway, why do people say the Browns don't draft BPA? We don't know what Cleveland's and other teams' draft boards looked like. Just because the draft "expert" say they reached, doesn't mean they did. If those guys were so good at scouting players, they would be working in the front office of a team.
Most felt that Weeden would have been a top 10-15 pick had he been a few years younger. He didn't last past the top 15 due to a lack of talent but because of his age.
I never understood why so many people wanted DeCastro and why people still complain about not drafting him. As someone else said, the Steelers could take him because they don't have that many needs and they have the luxury of drafting a guard in round one. The Browns had a lot of needs and didn't have the luxury of drafting a guard in round one. Don't get me wrong, I think having a good guard is underrated by many people, but it's not a position you draft in the first round when you have so many other needs. Besides, DeCastro supposedly wasn't looking good this offseason. I heard that he didn't exactly have an easy time claiming a starting spot. Considering how bad Pittsburgh's offensive line is, a first-round guard should easily be able to claim a staring spot without much difficulty. |
I never said that Weeden was a reached based on talent, like many, I agree that he probably would have been a top 15 talent if not for his age. But the point was that he is old and probably would have been available at 36. To say the Browns didnt have the luxary to select a guard in the first round is nonsense. Most likely we could have had both DeCastro and Weeden at 22 and 36. So the question really is which duo would you have liked better. I don't partically care for Schwartz so mine would have been the first.
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DawgX
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: This year's draft will show Holmgren the door! |
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| brownsfan214 wrote: | | DawgX wrote: | | brownsfan214 wrote: | | I feel that Pinkston and Lauvao were/are much bigger liabilties at the guard position than whoever (i forgot) we had at RT. |
I strongly disagree with Pinkston being a bigger liability than Pashos and the other RTs last season.
Anyway, why do people say the Browns don't draft BPA? We don't know what Cleveland's and other teams' draft boards looked like. Just because the draft "expert" say they reached, doesn't mean they did. If those guys were so good at scouting players, they would be working in the front office of a team.
Most felt that Weeden would have been a top 10-15 pick had he been a few years younger. He didn't last past the top 15 due to a lack of talent but because of his age.
I never understood why so many people wanted DeCastro and why people still complain about not drafting him. As someone else said, the Steelers could take him because they don't have that many needs and they have the luxury of drafting a guard in round one. The Browns had a lot of needs and didn't have the luxury of drafting a guard in round one. Don't get me wrong, I think having a good guard is underrated by many people, but it's not a position you draft in the first round when you have so many other needs. Besides, DeCastro supposedly wasn't looking good this offseason. I heard that he didn't exactly have an easy time claiming a starting spot. Considering how bad Pittsburgh's offensive line is, a first-round guard should easily be able to claim a staring spot without much difficulty. |
I never said that Weeden was a reached based on talent, like many, I agree that he probably would have been a top 15 talent if not for his age. But the point was that he is old and probably would have been available at 36. To say the Browns didnt have the luxary to select a guard in the first round is nonsense. Most likely we could have had both DeCastro and Weeden at 22 and 36. So the question really is which duo would you have liked better. I don't partically care for Schwartz so mine would have been the first. |
We don't know if Weeden would have been available in the second round. Obviously the front office thinks Weeden can become a franchise quarterback, so why would they risk passing on him at #22 since he might not be there in round two? Why would they take a guard over a potential franchise quarterback? Especially since Pinkston looked decent for a rookie drafted in round five and the front office spent a third-round pick on Lauvao and he's only had one year of actual playing time. I think Lauvao stinks and won't improve much, but I understand why the front office would want to give him more time to improve.
Even if I didn't like Schwartz that much, I could see why the front office would take Weeden at #22 and an offensive lineman in round two. However, I do like Schwartz so I was happy the Browns selected him.
Sorry, I think a potential franchise quarterback and Schwartz is a much better option than DeCastro/Reiff but potentially missing out on a franchise quarterback.
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ditchdigger
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 14043
Location: Columbus, OH
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: This year's draft will show Holmgren the door! |
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| brownsfan214 wrote: | | But the point was that he is old and probably would have been available at 36. To say the Browns didnt have the luxary to select a guard in the first round is nonsense. Most likely we could have had both DeCastro and Weeden at 22 and 36. So the question really is which duo would you have liked better. I don't partically care for Schwartz so mine would have been the first. |
You, nor anyone else in the world, has any idea who would have been available if even one or two picks were different.
Also, DeCastro isn't that great to begin with and would have struggled even more than he did in Steelers' camp because of the lack of talent next to him at RT.
In short, you are speaking in absolutes when there aren't any. The draft, and how players pan out, is a complete crapshoot. Success in one system doesn't guarantee it in another. |
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bruceb
Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 5328
Location: Rocky River, OH
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | When Haslam comes out and says "I fired Mike Holmgren because of the 2012 draft" then your opinion will not be dumb, and also there will be monkeys flying out ...nevermind
Anyway, if and when Holmgren loses his job it will have absolutely nothing to do with the 2012 draft. But I get it, you wanted to draft other players. I suggest you work hard, make a billion dollars, buy your own team, and draft the players you want with your super genius NFL player assessment skills (like reading draft websites). |
I don't agree with the premise of the thread, and I have not read every post, but I have to disagree with bolded, above, and with a couple of other things I picked up on.
With respect to the bolded comment, you can bet your butt that Haslam will consider everything he can think of -- including every draft -- probably using the experience and knowledge he gained as a minority owner of PIT.
Second, there seem to be more than a few people commenting favorably on and expressing support for H&H based Haslam's belief in "building through the draft". The PIT way probably as much or more than any team's is BPA.
That's not how Weeden was picked. The vast majority opinion is that Weeden was a reach...not BPA.
The "why" Weeden was picked is important, too. After the season, Holmgren was stunned by Lerner's disappointment with the progress of the "rebuild". All of a sudden Holmgren decided to be available to the media, prognosticated that the team would do better than 6 wins, and "reached" for Weeden, saying he was ""He's as prepared to come in and start as any rookie I've seen in a long time."
The other H & the S just nodded and agreed that Weeden is "the guy".
H&H&S are "all in" on Weeden.
If the team fails this year in large part due to the fact that he fails, could be that all three of their heads will roll, in part because of the last draft.
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ditchdigger
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| If that is the case, bruce, then Haslam's career as NFL owner is going to start off as a failure. Evaluating a draft after one year is tantamount to cashing out your 401K at age 35. It's beyond stupid, and it will cost you. |
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bruceb
Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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Location: Rocky River, OH
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ditchdigger wrote: | | If that is the case, bruce, then Haslam's career as NFL owner is going to start off as a failure. Evaluating a draft after one year is tantamount to cashing out your 401K at age 35. It's beyond stupid, and it will cost you. |
That's the case, Ditch. I wouldn't want people on my team who make those kinds of decisions for those kinds of reasons. I am certain Haslam won't, either. He will get better people.
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Dawgpoun8017
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 9124
Location: Waterloo,NY
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bruceb wrote: | | ditchdigger wrote: | | If that is the case, bruce, then Haslam's career as NFL owner is going to start off as a failure. Evaluating a draft after one year is tantamount to cashing out your 401K at age 35. It's beyond stupid, and it will cost you. |
That's the case, Ditch. I wouldn't want people on my team who make those kinds of decisions for those kinds of reasons. I am certain Haslam won't, either. He will get better people. |
Or he will get worse people. not like we havent seen that before
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bruceb
Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Dawgpoun8017 wrote: | | bruceb wrote: | | ditchdigger wrote: | | If that is the case, bruce, then Haslam's career as NFL owner is going to start off as a failure. Evaluating a draft after one year is tantamount to cashing out your 401K at age 35. It's beyond stupid, and it will cost you. |
That's the case, Ditch. I wouldn't want people on my team who make those kinds of decisions for those kinds of reasons. I am certain Haslam won't, either. He will get better people. |
Or he will get worse people. not like we havent seen that before |
His rep in the family business is to surround himself with the best.
I am confident he will figure out how to do that in this new business, too.
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