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This year's draft will show Holmgren the door!
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brownsfan214


Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 1196
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heyheyhaden wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say lets wait until the season ends to fully evaluate the past drafts under H & H.

Also the reason the steelers have won 2 SB's in the last 10 years is the same reason the giants have won 2 SB's in the last 10 years...more good fortune than the teams involved in the playoffs during their runs, aka, the previous years draft for the steelers and giants didn't really impact the outcomes as much as other factors, like injuries, crazyazz catches, and favorable matchups .

Now that the steelers are having some bad luck, whatch out. I'm not anticipating playoffs this year for the steelers, and prob not the giants. And I think most GM's of young teams like the Browns would be willing to take chance on a guy like Weeden at 22, compared to the prospect of trading for the likes of an 8 year NFL veteran like Big Ben with the 22 pick. So yea no big deal....yet.



Probably the best to do, we havent even played a game in the regular season yet, but I love to always speculate about the future.

Also the reason those two teams have won superbowls were because of a good defense and a franchise QB.
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Dawgpoun8017


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brownsfan214 wrote:
heyheyhaden wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say lets wait until the season ends to fully evaluate the past drafts under H & H.

Also the reason the steelers have won 2 SB's in the last 10 years is the same reason the giants have won 2 SB's in the last 10 years...more good fortune than the teams involved in the playoffs during their runs, aka, the previous years draft for the steelers and giants didn't really impact the outcomes as much as other factors, like injuries, crazyazz catches, and favorable matchups .

Now that the steelers are having some bad luck, whatch out. I'm not anticipating playoffs this year for the steelers, and prob not the giants. And I think most GM's of young teams like the Browns would be willing to take chance on a guy like Weeden at 22, compared to the prospect of trading for the likes of an 8 year NFL veteran like Big Ben with the 22 pick. So yea no big deal....yet.



Probably the best to do, we havent even played a game in the regular season yet, but I love to always speculate about the future.

Also the reason those two teams have won superbowls were because of a good defense and a franchise QB.


another reason why I think taking Decastro at 22 would have been a mistake, both of those teams when they won, had average at best OL
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elfman55


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good teams draft the BPA. The BROWNS don't seem to do that. They need to start doing it. With new onwership the H & H team will be split up, then you will see how good Heckert really is. Heckert knows who the BPA is, just has been talked (told who to pick ) out of it. Holmy righted the ship, & did a good job of it, but had too much say in the war room on draft day. Time to move on.

I am also on record that DeCastro should have been the pick at #22.

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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elfman55 wrote:
Good teams draft the BPA. The BROWNS don't seem to do that. They need to start doing it. With new onwership the H & H team will be split up, then you will see how good Heckert really is. Heckert knows who the BPA is, just has been talked (told who to pick ) out of it. Holmy righted the ship, & did a good job of it, but had too much say in the war room on draft day. Time to move on.

I am also on record that DeCastro should have been the pick at #22.

elfman


How the hell do you know who they think is BPA? We aren't there and we don't know what they think of these guys. It has to be played out. I'm gonna crucify or give great cheers for these picks yet because we don't know how they will play out.
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
elfman55 wrote:
Good teams draft the BPA. The BROWNS don't seem to do that. They need to start doing it. With new onwership the H & H team will be split up, then you will see how good Heckert really is. Heckert knows who the BPA is, just has been talked (told who to pick ) out of it. Holmy righted the ship, & did a good job of it, but had too much say in the war room on draft day. Time to move on.

I am also on record that DeCastro should have been the pick at #22.

elfman


How the hell do you know who they think is BPA? We aren't there and we don't know what they think of these guys. It has to be played out. I'm gonna crucify or give great cheers for these picks yet because we don't know how they will play out.


Exactly. Furthermore, how do you know if they'll fit our system?

Is DeCastro such a transcendent player that we would need to change our entire blocking scheme to suit him? The guy was reportedly having some difficulty adjusting to the physicality of the NFL, and apparently lacks the durability to withstand a lineman rolling into his legs (something that happens many times during the course of a game).

There are rarely, if ever, players available at 22 that transcend scheme. All of those types of players are gone before pick 10 is made, let alone 22. DeCastro is clearly not that type of player, or he would have been dominating in training camp instead of fighting for a starting spot at the least important position on one of the worst offensive lines in the league.
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roger murdock


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had absolutely 0.0 interest in DeCastro and am shocked there are still people wishing we took him.
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mistakebytehlak


Joined: 20 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: This year's draft will show Holmgren the door! Reply with quote

brownsfan214 wrote:


Thats true that I am speculating that Weeden would have been there, but in all likely hood he would have been available at that spot, maybe even falling to late 2nd round. Weeden was a reach but we did need a QB. But I want you to answer this question. Weeden and Schwartz or DeCastro and Weeden. That is the argument I am defending.


speculation
also weeden wasnt a reach based on his talents, just his age.
guard in the first LOL
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DawgX


Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: This year's draft will show Holmgren the door! Reply with quote

brownsfan214 wrote:
I feel that Pinkston and Lauvao were/are much bigger liabilties at the guard position than whoever (i forgot) we had at RT.


I strongly disagree with Pinkston being a bigger liability than Pashos and the other RTs last season.

Anyway, why do people say the Browns don't draft BPA? We don't know what Cleveland's and other teams' draft boards looked like. Just because the draft "expert" say they reached, doesn't mean they did. If those guys were so good at scouting players, they would be working in the front office of a team.

Most felt that Weeden would have been a top 10-15 pick had he been a few years younger. He didn't last past the top 15 due to a lack of talent but because of his age.

I never understood why so many people wanted DeCastro and why people still complain about not drafting him. As someone else said, the Steelers could take him because they don't have that many needs and they have the luxury of drafting a guard in round one. The Browns had a lot of needs and didn't have the luxury of drafting a guard in round one. Don't get me wrong, I think having a good guard is underrated by many people, but it's not a position you draft in the first round when you have so many other needs. Besides, DeCastro supposedly wasn't looking good this offseason. I heard that he didn't exactly have an easy time claiming a starting spot. Considering how bad Pittsburgh's offensive line is, a first-round guard should easily be able to claim a staring spot without much difficulty.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
elfman55 wrote:
Good teams draft the BPA. The BROWNS don't seem to do that. They need to start doing it. With new onwership the H & H team will be split up, then you will see how good Heckert really is. Heckert knows who the BPA is, just has been talked (told who to pick ) out of it. Holmy righted the ship, & did a good job of it, but had too much say in the war room on draft day. Time to move on.

I am also on record that DeCastro should have been the pick at #22.

elfman


How the hell do you know who they think is BPA? We aren't there and we don't know what they think of these guys. It has to be played out. I'm gonna crucify or give great cheers for these picks yet because we don't know how they will play out.


Exactly. Furthermore, how do you know if they'll fit our system?

Is DeCastro such a transcendent player that we would need to change our entire blocking scheme to suit him? The guy was reportedly having some difficulty adjusting to the physicality of the NFL, and apparently lacks the durability to withstand a lineman rolling into his legs (something that happens many times during the course of a game).

There are rarely, if ever, players available at 22 that transcend scheme. All of those types of players are gone before pick 10 is made, let alone 22. DeCastro is clearly not that type of player, or he would have been dominating in training camp instead of fighting for a starting spot at the least important position on one of the worst offensive lines in the league.


Aw c'mon man, Decastro and Adams were the steals of the draft. Just having those guys on the roster makes the Steelers line better. And that Spence guy that plays LB too. The Steelers draft so well year in and year out. Just look at all the super players they have drafted in the first 3 rounds recently like Decastro, Adams, Spence, Cam Heyward, Ziggy Hood, Limas Sweed, Jason Worilds, Marcus Gilbert, Bruce Davis, Curtis Brown, Kraig Urbik, Keenan Lewis, Matt Spaeth, and Rashard Mendelhall.

It's not like they have been living off of a few successful drafts for several years or anything. Wink
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look at the team this way: we've amassed a core of players who (if most pan out) will be team mates for 6-8 years. Team mates who will be the seasoned vets of the future, as fresh new talent is brought in. This is how you build a team. This is how you build a team's culture. History. Personal connection. The most frustrating aspects of being a "modern-day Browns fan" has been watching our succession of FO's make the same mistakes over and over. Wholesale coaching staff changes/purges every 3 years. "Win now or else" mood hanging over Cleveland every year. Back to square one. Again.

Now you all have a right to complain and voice your opinnion. I am just saying this now because I know certain posters who will misinterpret what I am saying and make it seem like a personal attack. However at what point do we say enough is enough and give guys actual time to build a team?
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cthomas09


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman93 wrote:
I look at the team this way: we've amassed a core of players who (if most pan out) will be team mates for 6-8 years. Team mates who will be the seasoned vets of the future, as fresh new talent is brought in. This is how you build a team. This is how you build a team's culture. History. Personal connection. The most frustrating aspects of being a "modern-day Browns fan" has been watching our succession of FO's make the same mistakes over and over. Wholesale coaching staff changes/purges every 3 years. "Win now or else" mood hanging over Cleveland every year. Back to square one. Again.

Now you all have a right to complain and voice your opinnion. I am just saying this now because I know certain posters who will misinterpret what I am saying and make it seem like a personal attack. However at what point do we say enough is enough and give guys actual time to build a team?
when they have one winning season then we give them all am extension and fire them the next year........what do i win for giving the right answer?
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bulldog


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how people don't see the talent in these last few drafts by Heckert. Things are changing. Pluto just had a really good article on this.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2012/09/young_roster_is_a_bold_and_ris.html

Quote:
Holmgren did set the course for building through the draft, but those whose football futures really are at stake are Heckert and Shurmur.

A bold plan

Give them credit for not signing some marginal veterans or over-priced free agents to try to win a few more games. But do light a few holy candles for them so that Haslam can see beyond the final record before deciding who should run his football team in 2013.

Heckert and Shurmur are convinced the only way the Browns will ever be successful is to draft and develop their core players. Every front office/coach combination says that, but few are so committed as these guys.


Quote:
This should be the year that T.J. Ward, Joe Haden and Shawn Lauvao take major steps forward. They are the core of Heckert's 2010 class, along with Montario Hardesty and Colt McCoy. Haden has the talent to be a Pro Bowler, and Ward needs to stay healthy to be the hard-hitting safety that they need.

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bigdogsandiego


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a lot of salient and well thought ideas in this dumb and foolish thread! For those who are challenged to read and actually address the issue, the central premise or opinion was this year's draft will be the reason Holmgren is let go this year. I love Holmgren and think he brought the Browns back to reality by building a winning franchise with an excellent staff of coaches, clearing the dead wood and bad contracts, two very solid drafts, and a plan. Mike is a QB guru who was an all state QB in SF, USC starter, and coached every name QB in the last 40 yrs. He has forgotten more football than Shurmur knows. This year's draft was an act of desperation and Holmgren is responsible. With 11 picks and Gordon(next year 2nd), Heckert should have done the last year of rebuilding particularly the O and D line for the decade. Yes, we all know we need a franchise QB. Weeden is still unknown but McCoy/Wallace are known. My opinion is Holmgren bet the house on Weeden and Haslam will have to account for this decision by showing him the door.
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So your assertion is that Holmgren will be fired for drafting Weeden instead of DeCastro at 22.

Dumb opinion. No offense.
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bigdogsandiego


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DD, that is your assertion as I never mentioned Decastro! I am asserting simply this year's draft will be the end of Holmgren.
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