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dante9876
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 17542
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 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| JTagg7754 wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | A QB of Palmers stature? He's been nothing but average for a long time. Him missing a wide open Moore on third down on sunday had nothing to do with scheme. |
I'm just saying he's not Matt Cassel, Sanchez, etc. He can play football. He has the arm and savvy of a vet. He's far better a passer than this offense is allowing him to be.
And to your last point, scheme no. But not working with Moore since early August had something to do with it. And what has he done to correct this? In practice he's jumped in on every rep with Moore to get the timing and tendencies down. That is the kind of QB he is. |
He might not be Matt Cassel but at the end of the day he won't bring us a superbowl. |
B/c you must have a elite QB to win a Super Bowl.................... Brad Johnson just stole your girl and took her over to Trent Dilfer's house. |
Exception, not the rule.
Fact is, the majority of playoff teams have a great QB at the helm. The teams that consistently win in the NFL year over year, have a great QB. |
While that is correct, there are plenty of examples that prove an elite QB isn't necessary to go far. I would put Palmer over the following QBs to MAKE a Super Bowl this century:
Dilfer
Johnson
Grossman
Hassellbeck
Delhomme
Collins
That's just in this decade. Obviously it's debatable but only w/ Hassellbeck and Delhomme IMO. I more think Delhomme was a product of the system.
Elite QBs aren't necessary and Carson definitely has the ability to take us far. Not on his own though. |
I would take Hasselback and Collins the years they went to the Superbowl over Palmer. Ill take them in a heart beat over Palmer. Palmer doesnt even make checks at the freaking line. No blitz pickups, no audibles, no adjustments. I mean cmon. |
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dante9876
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver&Black88 wrote: | | The point is Palmer can do more than ride a great running game and defense to get to the playoffs. Not that he can go one and done. |
I keep hearing this. In 2005 maybe. But I havent seen Palmer lead a team to anything without a defense and running game. Last time he went to the playoffs was 2009. Bengals defense 4 in yards 6 in points, Rushing attack was top 10. So where is those Palmer can lead a team stuff come from |
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big_palooka
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19067
Location: ATL
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| dante9876 wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | A QB of Palmers stature? He's been nothing but average for a long time. Him missing a wide open Moore on third down on sunday had nothing to do with scheme. |
I'm just saying he's not Matt Cassel, Sanchez, etc. He can play football. He has the arm and savvy of a vet. He's far better a passer than this offense is allowing him to be.
And to your last point, scheme no. But not working with Moore since early August had something to do with it. And what has he done to correct this? In practice he's jumped in on every rep with Moore to get the timing and tendencies down. That is the kind of QB he is. |
He might not be Matt Cassel but at the end of the day he won't bring us a superbowl. |
B/c you must have a elite QB to win a Super Bowl.................... Brad Johnson just stole your girl and took her over to Trent Dilfer's house. |
Exception, not the rule.
Fact is, the majority of playoff teams have a great QB at the helm. The teams that consistently win in the NFL year over year, have a great QB. |
While that is correct, there are plenty of examples that prove an elite QB isn't necessary to go far. I would put Palmer over the following QBs to MAKE a Super Bowl this century:
Dilfer
Johnson
Grossman
Hassellbeck
Delhomme
Collins
That's just in this decade. Obviously it's debatable but only w/ Hassellbeck and Delhomme IMO. I more think Delhomme was a product of the system.
Elite QBs aren't necessary and Carson definitely has the ability to take us far. Not on his own though. |
I would take Hasselback and Collins the years they went to the Superbowl over Palmer. Ill take them in a heart beat over Palmer. Palmer doesnt even make checks at the freaking line. No blitz pickups, no audibles, no adjustments. I mean cmon. |
He did last season. You think that's on him now? Clearly he's doing what is asked of him.
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dante9876
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 17542
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| big_palooka wrote: | | dante9876 wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | A QB of Palmers stature? He's been nothing but average for a long time. Him missing a wide open Moore on third down on sunday had nothing to do with scheme. |
I'm just saying he's not Matt Cassel, Sanchez, etc. He can play football. He has the arm and savvy of a vet. He's far better a passer than this offense is allowing him to be.
And to your last point, scheme no. But not working with Moore since early August had something to do with it. And what has he done to correct this? In practice he's jumped in on every rep with Moore to get the timing and tendencies down. That is the kind of QB he is. |
He might not be Matt Cassel but at the end of the day he won't bring us a superbowl. |
B/c you must have a elite QB to win a Super Bowl.................... Brad Johnson just stole your girl and took her over to Trent Dilfer's house. |
Exception, not the rule.
Fact is, the majority of playoff teams have a great QB at the helm. The teams that consistently win in the NFL year over year, have a great QB. |
While that is correct, there are plenty of examples that prove an elite QB isn't necessary to go far. I would put Palmer over the following QBs to MAKE a Super Bowl this century:
Dilfer
Johnson
Grossman
Hassellbeck
Delhomme
Collins
That's just in this decade. Obviously it's debatable but only w/ Hassellbeck and Delhomme IMO. I more think Delhomme was a product of the system.
Elite QBs aren't necessary and Carson definitely has the ability to take us far. Not on his own though. |
I would take Hasselback and Collins the years they went to the Superbowl over Palmer. Ill take them in a heart beat over Palmer. Palmer doesnt even make checks at the freaking line. No blitz pickups, no audibles, no adjustments. I mean cmon. |
He did last season. You think that's on him now? Clearly he's doing what is asked of him. |
he is the leader, our QB, he needs to request to be able to make adjustments at the line. He needs to tell his coaches he needs to check plays at the line and not just throw checkdowns. But yeah I blame Knapp why more than I do Palmer for this. |
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TiberiusRising
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 5582
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| dante9876 wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | dante9876 wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | A QB of Palmers stature? He's been nothing but average for a long time. Him missing a wide open Moore on third down on sunday had nothing to do with scheme. |
I'm just saying he's not Matt Cassel, Sanchez, etc. He can play football. He has the arm and savvy of a vet. He's far better a passer than this offense is allowing him to be.
And to your last point, scheme no. But not working with Moore since early August had something to do with it. And what has he done to correct this? In practice he's jumped in on every rep with Moore to get the timing and tendencies down. That is the kind of QB he is. |
He might not be Matt Cassel but at the end of the day he won't bring us a superbowl. |
B/c you must have a elite QB to win a Super Bowl.................... Brad Johnson just stole your girl and took her over to Trent Dilfer's house. |
Exception, not the rule.
Fact is, the majority of playoff teams have a great QB at the helm. The teams that consistently win in the NFL year over year, have a great QB. |
While that is correct, there are plenty of examples that prove an elite QB isn't necessary to go far. I would put Palmer over the following QBs to MAKE a Super Bowl this century:
Dilfer
Johnson
Grossman
Hassellbeck
Delhomme
Collins
That's just in this decade. Obviously it's debatable but only w/ Hassellbeck and Delhomme IMO. I more think Delhomme was a product of the system.
Elite QBs aren't necessary and Carson definitely has the ability to take us far. Not on his own though. |
I would take Hasselback and Collins the years they went to the Superbowl over Palmer. Ill take them in a heart beat over Palmer. Palmer doesnt even make checks at the freaking line. No blitz pickups, no audibles, no adjustments. I mean cmon. |
He did last season. You think that's on him now? Clearly he's doing what is asked of him. |
he is the leader, our QB, he needs to request to be able to make adjustments at the line. He needs to tell his coaches he needs to check plays at the line and not just throw checkdowns. But yeah I blame Knapp why more than I do Palmer for this. |
I'm sure he has. But he is not the type of guy or leader to say stuff in public. Ala Big Ben who is complaining publicly about similar things with Haley. Personally in this case we really dont need the added drama publicly considering the whole thing is under so much scrutiny right now. |
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ZoomWaffle
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4580
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| dante9876 wrote: | | Silver&Black88 wrote: | | The point is Palmer can do more than ride a great running game and defense to get to the playoffs. Not that he can go one and done. |
I keep hearing this. In 2005 maybe. But I havent seen Palmer lead a team to anything without a defense and running game. Last time he went to the playoffs was 2009. Bengals defense 4 in yards 6 in points, Rushing attack was top 10. So where is those Palmer can lead a team stuff come from |
I dont think he is saying that Palmer can carry a team that has a poor run game/defense to the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he is just saying that Palmer is better than say, Trent Dilfer, who was below average but rode the greatest D of all time and a good run game to the Super Bowl. He isnt a great QB by any means, but he is also more than just a guy who will sit back and let the rest of the team take him to the playoffs.
It is clear that Palmer was a better QB last year than this year. Yes, he threw all those interceptions, but he also seriously took games over on offense. He was missing either his #1 WR, #2 WR, or even both in I think every game last year, yet still threw for a ton of yards. I know yards arent everything, but add in a respectable 60% completion percentage and the big plays he made and you have some pretty good play from a guy who came off the couch into a new system. Last year he took chances (sometimes too many) but still tossed a ton of nice deep balls and our WRs benefited greatly because of it. Its no coencidence that the day Knapp takes over Palmer is throwing 8 yard passes and checking down to McFadden all the time.
He is not Aaron Rodgers, and if anyone expected him to throw for 4,500 yards, 66%, 32 TDs and 10 INTs they are dillusional. You'll never see him take a so-so team to the playoffs, but he is a QB perfectly capable of winning games by himself, making the deep throws to his WRs, and making good decisions (and some bad ones, admittedly), and if he had a supporting cast that was at least pulling their weight, playoffs would not be far-fetched. However, Greg Knapp is not going to allow him to do any of that, and thats just the way it is.
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| La_Vader wrote: | | I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that |
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dante9876
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 17542
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ZoomWaffle wrote: | | dante9876 wrote: | | Silver&Black88 wrote: | | The point is Palmer can do more than ride a great running game and defense to get to the playoffs. Not that he can go one and done. |
I keep hearing this. In 2005 maybe. But I havent seen Palmer lead a team to anything without a defense and running game. Last time he went to the playoffs was 2009. Bengals defense 4 in yards 6 in points, Rushing attack was top 10. So where is those Palmer can lead a team stuff come from |
I dont think he is saying that Palmer can carry a team that has a poor run game/defense to the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he is just saying that Palmer is better than say, Trent Dilfer, who was below average but rode the greatest D of all time and a good run game to the Super Bowl. He isnt a great QB by any means, but he is also more than just a guy who will sit back and let the rest of the team take him to the playoffs. |
Well from what I been hearing is Palmer can win games with his arm. Our 0-2 record says otherwise. I heard all offseason wait til he has Mcfadden. A full offseason and blah blah blah. It isnt Palmer fault we are losing. It easily is on Knapp IMO but point remains the same that he cant win games with his arm. People point to the Chargers game last year, but Bush had a huge game and the defense had a great game. Is Palmer a better passer than Campbell sure but is he so far ahead of him that He will win us games Campbell wouldnt. I just dont agree with that. |
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ZoomWaffle
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4580
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| dante9876 wrote: | | ZoomWaffle wrote: | | dante9876 wrote: | | Silver&Black88 wrote: | | The point is Palmer can do more than ride a great running game and defense to get to the playoffs. Not that he can go one and done. |
I keep hearing this. In 2005 maybe. But I havent seen Palmer lead a team to anything without a defense and running game. Last time he went to the playoffs was 2009. Bengals defense 4 in yards 6 in points, Rushing attack was top 10. So where is those Palmer can lead a team stuff come from |
I dont think he is saying that Palmer can carry a team that has a poor run game/defense to the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he is just saying that Palmer is better than say, Trent Dilfer, who was below average but rode the greatest D of all time and a good run game to the Super Bowl. He isnt a great QB by any means, but he is also more than just a guy who will sit back and let the rest of the team take him to the playoffs. |
Well from what I been hearing is Palmer can win games with his arm. Our 0-2 record says otherwise. I heard all offseason wait til he has Mcfadden. A full offseason and blah blah blah. It isnt Palmer fault we are losing. It easily is on Knapp IMO but point remains the same that he cant win games with his arm. People point to the Chargers game last year, but Bush had a huge game and the defense had a great game. Is Palmer a better passer than Campbell sure but is he so far ahead of him that He will win us games Campbell wouldnt. I just dont agree with that. |
I think he can win games with his arm, the Detroit and week 17 SD games are proof. Now, bear with my reasoning here: I know we lost those games, so it sounds contradictory, but it proves my point exactly. He had huge games, little-to-no mistakes, but in each one our defense failed us miserably and gave up a ton of points. No team should have a QB throw for 360-400 yards with more TDs than picks, and 66-80% completion rates, and still lose. But in the SD game our D gave up 38 points and against DET we had the game won until the D collapsed late in the game. So I know he didnt actually win those games, but he played at the same level as a QB who can win games, only difference is the defense blew it. IMO he has shown the ability to win a game with his arm, but he hasnt actually won one that way in Oakland, even though he has played well enough at times to do so. Be it defensive lapses in 2011 or terrible playcalling in 2012.
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| La_Vader wrote: | | I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that |
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ZoomWaffle
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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Location: AZ
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| dante9876 wrote: | | Is Palmer a better passer than Campbell sure but is he so far ahead of him that He will win us games Campbell wouldnt. I just dont agree with that. |
IDK if I agree. Campbell was a very play-it-safe QB who had a lot of trouble throwing deep. Thats fine and dandy when you have a strong ground game and a defense that can hold their own. But with no run support and our defense giving up so many points, we need a QB who can get into a shootout. Palmer has been struggling, but I trust him a lot more than Campbell in a game where there the run game is ineffective and the other team is scoring a lot of points... of course, this is assuming we have a competent play caller. As of right now, I wouldnt trust either QB to do well in our offense.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig
| La_Vader wrote: | | I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that |
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JTagg7754
Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Oh my, Jason Campbell would be so bad in this offense.....
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| NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | Quote: |
you wouldnt want Rodgers Brady or Manning in his prime as your QBs? |
not with the way the nfl is right now. id take a guy like kaep over them |
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ZoomWaffle
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| JTagg7754 wrote: | | Oh my, Jason Campbell would be so bad in this offense..... |
+1
Campbell is a guy who wont turn the ball over often, and is the kind of guy you want to compliment a great ground attack. Take away his run game and he wont do anything. At least Palmer will make some big throws that campbell cant. Sadly, this offense limits what Palmer does best so we will probably rarely see any big games from him.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig
| La_Vader wrote: | | I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that |
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Baggabonez
Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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Location: RaiderNation
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ZoomWaffle wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | Oh my, Jason Campbell would be so bad in this offense..... |
+1
Campbell is a guy who wont turn the ball over often, and is the kind of guy you want to compliment a great ground attack. Take away his run game and he wont do anything. At least Palmer will make some big throws that campbell cant. Sadly, this offense limits what Palmer does best so we will probably rarely see any big games from him. |
Jason Campbell is an underdog though. He's never truly ever been accepted so yeah I'd be for losing with a guy like that than winning with our shining knight who was born with a spoon in his mouth and given EVERY opportunity to succeed. It's crap. If Palmer really is Buzz Lightyear he should be winning these games regardless. No excuses. Besides his approach to the game is so traditional and conformist it makes me barf in my mouth. He's just too clean for a city wit grimy hard working folk. Where's his swag?
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big_palooka
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19067
Location: ATL
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Baggabonez wrote: | | ZoomWaffle wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | Oh my, Jason Campbell would be so bad in this offense..... |
+1
Campbell is a guy who wont turn the ball over often, and is the kind of guy you want to compliment a great ground attack. Take away his run game and he wont do anything. At least Palmer will make some big throws that campbell cant. Sadly, this offense limits what Palmer does best so we will probably rarely see any big games from him. |
Jason Campbell is an underdog though. He's never truly ever been accepted so yeah I'd be for losing with a guy like that than winning with our shining knight who was born with a spoon in his mouth and given EVERY opportunity to succeed. It's crap. If Palmer really is Buzz Lightyear he should be winning these games regardless. No excuses. Besides his approach to the game is so traditional and conformist it makes me barf in my mouth. He's just too clean for a city wit grimy hard working folk. Where's his swag? |
Please tell me you are being sarcastic?
I'm so sick of this 'swag' non-sense. That doesn't represent Raider football in my eyes. Gannon has about as much 'swag' as my high school social studies teacher.
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Darkness
Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| big_palooka wrote: | | Baggabonez wrote: | | ZoomWaffle wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | Oh my, Jason Campbell would be so bad in this offense..... |
+1
Campbell is a guy who wont turn the ball over often, and is the kind of guy you want to compliment a great ground attack. Take away his run game and he wont do anything. At least Palmer will make some big throws that campbell cant. Sadly, this offense limits what Palmer does best so we will probably rarely see any big games from him. |
Jason Campbell is an underdog though. He's never truly ever been accepted so yeah I'd be for losing with a guy like that than winning with our shining knight who was born with a spoon in his mouth and given EVERY opportunity to succeed. It's crap. If Palmer really is Buzz Lightyear he should be winning these games regardless. No excuses. Besides his approach to the game is so traditional and conformist it makes me barf in my mouth. He's just too clean for a city wit grimy hard working folk. Where's his swag? |
Please tell me you are being sarcastic?
I'm so sick of this 'swag' non-sense. That doesn't represent Raider football in my eyes. Gannon has about as much 'swag' as my high school social studies teacher. |
That post was dripping with sarcasm. I agree with you both.
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Chali21
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 1709
Location: Cali
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ZoomWaffle wrote: | | dante9876 wrote: | | ZoomWaffle wrote: | | dante9876 wrote: | | Silver&Black88 wrote: | | The point is Palmer can do more than ride a great running game and defense to get to the playoffs. Not that he can go one and done. |
I keep hearing this. In 2005 maybe. But I havent seen Palmer lead a team to anything without a defense and running game. Last time he went to the playoffs was 2009. Bengals defense 4 in yards 6 in points, Rushing attack was top 10. So where is those Palmer can lead a team stuff come from |
I dont think he is saying that Palmer can carry a team that has a poor run game/defense to the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he is just saying that Palmer is better than say, Trent Dilfer, who was below average but rode the greatest D of all time and a good run game to the Super Bowl. He isnt a great QB by any means, but he is also more than just a guy who will sit back and let the rest of the team take him to the playoffs. |
Well from what I been hearing is Palmer can win games with his arm. Our 0-2 record says otherwise. I heard all offseason wait til he has Mcfadden. A full offseason and blah blah blah. It isnt Palmer fault we are losing. It easily is on Knapp IMO but point remains the same that he cant win games with his arm. People point to the Chargers game last year, but Bush had a huge game and the defense had a great game. Is Palmer a better passer than Campbell sure but is he so far ahead of him that He will win us games Campbell wouldnt. I just dont agree with that. |
I think he can win games with his arm, the Detroit and week 17 SD games are proof. Now, bear with my reasoning here: I know we lost those games, so it sounds contradictory, but it proves my point exactly. He had huge games, little-to-no mistakes, but in each one our defense failed us miserably and gave up a ton of points. No team should have a QB throw for 360-400 yards with more TDs than picks, and 66-80% completion rates, and still lose. But in the SD game our D gave up 38 points and against DET we had the game won until the D collapsed late in the game. So I know he didnt actually win those games, but he played at the same level as a QB who can win games, only difference is the defense blew it. IMO he has shown the ability to win a game with his arm, but he hasnt actually won one that way in Oakland, even though he has played well enough at times to do so. Be it defensive lapses in 2011 or terrible playcalling in 2012. |
Actually if I'm not mistaken he had a costly turnover in the SD game. I know it was his only one but dang man he did that a ton. Turnovers in key moments will lose a game. All I'm saying is homie isn't very clutch. |
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