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Russell2Bailey


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Front 4 Hypothesis Reply with quote

So now that Hunter is out for the season, it's looking like Derek Wolfe will be our new LE. I've had 2nd guesses on something else. Playing Wolfe at DT while Ayers play LE. It kicks Vickerson out of the lineup. I would much rather have Ayers in at LE than Vickerson in at DT.

So it looks like this now. NOTE: This is what I've seen as far as players starting on Sunday against the 49ers. Not the depth chart on the team website.

LE- Derek Wolfe

NT- Ty Warren

DT- Kevin Vickerson

RE- Elvis Dumervil


I would rather have it look like this.

LE- Robert Ayers

NT- Ty Warren

DT- Derek Wolfe

RE- Elvis Dumervil


Which would give us the better defense in your opinion? Thoughts?
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germ-x


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seemed to me the more common base lineup has been LE- Wolfe, DT- Warren, DT- Bannan, DE- Dumervil.

In passing situations it looks like the most used players are...DE- Miller, DT- Wolfe, DT- Unrein, DE- Dumervil.
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Cutler06


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like the first option better. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised is Ayers gets cut and replaced by Beal/Jackson
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beal hasn't done much except for the first preseason game. Ayers, although not flashy, is adequate against the run. And yes, he was beaten out by Hunter but Hunter isn't there anymore. In my opinion, Ayers and Jackson are the way to go.
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kansas bob


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cutler06 wrote:
i like the first option better. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised is Ayers gets cut and replaced by Beal/Jackson

You can't be serious??? This is a joke, right?
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Cutler06


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kansas bob wrote:
Cutler06 wrote:
i like the first option better. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised is Ayers gets cut and replaced by Beal/Jackson

You can't be serious??? This is a joke, right?


No, Beal has at least shown flashes, what has Ayers done, lost his job ...? Plus he's paid more, came from the McDummy regime....I wouldn't be opposed to it.
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broncospride95


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cutler06 wrote:
kansas bob wrote:
Cutler06 wrote:
i like the first option better. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised is Ayers gets cut and replaced by Beal/Jackson

You can't be serious??? This is a joke, right?


No, Beal has at least shown flashes, what has Ayers done, lost his job ...? Plus he's paid more, came from the McDummy regime....I wouldn't be opposed to it.

I would, Ayers is a decent DE and is a good run defender. I think it'd be irresponsible to cut Ayers without an obvious upgrade over him. We have Doom, Ayers, Beal, Miller who only plays DE on 3rd and longs, and also Jackson/Wolfe who play DT and DE. Hunter is out for the year so really if we cut Ayers we'd only have two full time DE's in Beal and Doom and we don't know what we have in Beal right now. If Ayers doesn't show much more this year and we find another capable DE then I'd be all for cutting Ayers, but I think he deserves another year at DE and the timing just isn't good right now.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kansas bob wrote:
Cutler06 wrote:
i like the first option better. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised is Ayers gets cut and replaced by Beal/Jackson

You can't be serious??? This is a joke, right?


I like the 1st option better also. Haven't seen much of Beal, (only saw last weeks game) but I love what I've seen from Jackson. I doubt either could clear waivers and make it to the PS. Never been a fan of Ayers although he did show improvement last year.

So...... doubtful if we keep all three. Who do you think should be odd man out? One of the two promising young guys or a guy that's never lived up to expectations and has been sliding steadily down the depth chart?
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kansas bob


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
kansas bob wrote:
Cutler06 wrote:
i like the first option better. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised is Ayers gets cut and replaced by Beal/Jackson

You can't be serious??? This is a joke, right?


I like the 1st option better also. Haven't seen much of Beal, (only saw last weeks game) but I love what I've seen from Jackson. I doubt either could clear waivers and make it to the PS. Never been a fan of Ayers although he did show improvement last year.

So...... doubtful if we keep all three. Who do you think should be odd man out? One of the two promising young guys or a guy that's never lived up to expectations and has been sliding steadily down the depth chart?

Who's expectations has Ayers not lived up too? Yours? The coaches will decide not fans. My opinion won't matter any more than yours but I think Ayers will stay and probably Beal will get cut. Ayers has improved every year and wasn't last season his first as a DE and not a OLB? Actually both could make the squad since Jackson is also a DT as well as DE as is Wolfe.
I know Del Rio don't seem too impressed with Ayers either so we will see Friday.
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lomaxgr


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
It seemed to me the more common base lineup has been LE- Wolfe, DT- Warren, DT- Bannan, DE- Dumervil.

In passing situations it looks like the most used players are...DE- Miller, DT- Wolfe, DT- Unrein, DE- Dumervil.


This is the point people always seem to miss. How often do teams pass out of situations when we are in our base 4-3 look? I bet the percentage is close to about 35% at best. When our base 4-3 is on the field, our priority is stopping the run, and by putting Ayers in the lineup ahead of Bannan/Vickerson, you are making our Run Defense worse.

Elvis has really impressed me with the way he has rushed the passer out of our base looks this preseason, so when you combine him with the blitzing ability of Von from SLB in our 4-3 base, I see no need to take Wolfe away from LE.

I am much, much more concerned with our ability to defend the run from our Nickel package. As germ-x stated, our Nickel Defense has almost exclusively been Doom, Unrein, Wolfe, Von with Mays and Woodyard being the Nickel LB's. To me, this is a recipe for disaster when teams run against the Nickel (a lot more frequent than teams passing when we are in our 4-3 base). We were very poor at defending the run in our Nickel last year and unfortunately I haven't seen anything either film or personnel wise to suggest this will be any different this year.

So long story short - people get too hung up on 'starting' lineups on the DL/LB spots. Sub packages are equally, if not more important.
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AntiSuperstar


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lomaxgr wrote:
This is the point people always seem to miss. How often do teams pass out of situations when we are in our base 4-3 look? I bet the percentage is close to about 35% at best. When our base 4-3 is on the field, our priority is stopping the run, and by putting Ayers in the lineup ahead of Bannan/Vickerson, you are making our Run Defense worse.


Not only are you making the run defense worse, putting Ayers instead of Vickerson(as opposed to Bannan, which is obviously a different story) makes the pash rush worse too.

lomaxgr wrote:
I am much, much more concerned with our ability to defend the run from our Nickel package. As germ-x stated, our Nickel Defense has almost exclusively been Doom, Unrein, Wolfe, Von with Mays and Woodyard being the Nickel LB's. To me, this is a recipe for disaster when teams run against the Nickel (a lot more frequent than teams passing when we are in our 4-3 base). We were very poor at defending the run in our Nickel last year and unfortunately I haven't seen anything either film or personnel wise to suggest this will be any different this year.


I don't know why we don't give Vickerson a shot in the nickel sets. It seems to me he's a guy who can penetrate well which means he can't be worse than Wolfe(whose performance this pre-season is vastly overrated by Broncos fans). Now pure out of the gate explosion can be overrated particularly with regards to pass defense, as much of defensive line play does rely on teamwork and designed rushes, but Vickerson isn't Kellen Heard, I would think he's agile enough to do all the things Unrein and Wolfe are doing out there. I don't like watching the San Francisco game for example and seeing Vickerson's role diminished because the team like Bannan better as a run stopper. It seems to me outside of Von Miller, Vickerson is our most explosive player on the line. Figure out a way to use him.

That said, Unrein is better against the run than either McBean or Vickerson were last season, and I would take Wolfe over Marcus Thomas any day. The line also seems to be less reliant on stunts and such so I don't think the run defense from the nickel should be quite as bad. As ever, the Linebackers are the weakness though.

lomaxgr wrote:
So long story short - people get too hung up on 'starting' lineups on the DL/LB spots. Sub packages are equally, if not more important.


If you're going to compare all sub-packages to just one set, then they're way more important.

Russell2Bailey wrote:
So it looks like this now. NOTE: This is what I've seen as far as players starting on Sunday against the 49ers. Not the depth chart on the team website.

LE- Derek Wolfe

NT- Ty Warren

DT- Kevin Vickerson

RE- Elvis Dumervil


Bannan started, not Vickerson.

Russell2Bailey wrote:
I would rather have it look like this.

LE- Robert Ayers

NT- Ty Warren

DT- Derek Wolfe

RE- Elvis Dumervil


Huge downgrade to the run defense, marginal at best improvement in the pash rush. No thanks.
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kansas bob


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wouldn't surprise me to see Ayers go in for Doom on running downs. Ayers is much better in run defense and also saves Doom for the end of the game when opponents are passing a lot trying to catch up.
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lomaxgr


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntiSuperstar wrote:
I don't know why we don't give Vickerson a shot in the nickel sets. It seems to me he's a guy who can penetrate well which means he can't be worse than Wolfe(whose performance this pre-season is vastly overrated by Broncos fans).


I guess it is hard to say with only preseason to go by, but I get the feeling Del Rio wants our DT's who only play that position exclusively (Bannan, Warren, Vickerson, Unrein) on a very limited snap count. Who knows, maybe come the regular season we will see Vickerson in the Nickel.

I agree with you about Wolfe. I thought he was impressive in the opener against Chicago, but has turned in two average performances since. That doesn't mean I am down on the guy - he is a Rookie and I am excited to see him play. However, I don't think he is the player (yet) that many seem to be touting him as.
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Cutler06


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kansas bob wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
kansas bob wrote:
Cutler06 wrote:
i like the first option better. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised is Ayers gets cut and replaced by Beal/Jackson

You can't be serious??? This is a joke, right?


I like the 1st option better also. Haven't seen much of Beal, (only saw last weeks game) but I love what I've seen from Jackson. I doubt either could clear waivers and make it to the PS. Never been a fan of Ayers although he did show improvement last year.

So...... doubtful if we keep all three. Who do you think should be odd man out? One of the two promising young guys or a guy that's never lived up to expectations and has been sliding steadily down the depth chart?

Who's expectations has Ayers not lived up too? Yours? The coaches will decide not fans. My opinion won't matter any more than yours but I think Ayers will stay and probably Beal will get cut. Ayers has improved every year and wasn't last season his first as a DE and not a OLB? Actually both could make the squad since Jackson is also a DT as well as DE as is Wolfe.
I know Del Rio don't seem too impressed with Ayers either so we will see Friday.


Well let's be honest, if Hunter was healthy, Ayers would be cut, no doubt in my mind. +I'd personally rather see Jackson moved to a DE position behind Wolfe, Beal behind Doom and keep Garland, although he hasn't impressed me as much as I thought either. Ayers is a solid run defender, not sayinghe doesn't have value there. But in my mind, a DE should have some sacks and Ayers has 4.5 in two years as a DE (left out his rookie/LB year) and seems to the 18th overall pick should be a little better. The guy has ONE good year in college to gain that draft status ( thanks again, McDummy) and he's been nothing more than mediocre IMO. Beal has shown he can pressure the QB ( in the NFL and college) so that's why he's my choice over Ayers
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evans and Klatt brought this up again the other day... The way the FO pre-Elway has burnt 1st rounders is startling. Being reminded of that made me reconsider booking a flight to Boston to kick McDaniels in the marbles.
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