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jgold72288
Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 506
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 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| prorb wrote: | | Babylon wrote: |
2008 Colts rank in points:
Offense: 13th, Defense: 7th
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2008
Saints
Offense: 1st (28.9 Pts/G)
Defense: 26th (24.6 Pts/G)
2009
Saints
Offense: 1st (31.9 Pts/G)
Defense: 20th (21.3 Pts/G)
Colts
Offense: 7th (26 Pts/G)
Defense: 8th (19.2 Pts/G) |
You're going to need to take into account a lot more than that. For instance, in 2009 through Week 14 (last game Peyton played the whole game) he had had 16 less possessions than Drew to put up points (meaning his defense had to defend less possessions per game as well). He also had a substantially worse run game and O-line. Plus you have to take into account who faced tougher defenses (no idea how to figure that out; might favor Brees but I don't know where I can look that up) and the fact that Brees fumbled 10 times to Peyton's 2. Not saying it should have been Peyton in a landslide, but it's much closer than people are giving it credit for.
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jgold72288
Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 506
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and in 2008 Drew Brees had 31 more possessions (3.4 more games worth of offensive opportunities) to score. Why points scored and given up per drive isn't the main stat we use to judge offenses and defenses I have no idea.
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GaTechRavens
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 15691
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Just for kicks, here's my personal (without any positional bias, except for o-linemen who are impossible to judge in this kind of context) MVP list going back as far as I can. I started watching around 96/97 but obviously didn't have too much of an idea of what was going on until I was a bit older.
1999: Kurt Warner
2000: Ray Lewis
2001: Michael Strahan
2002: Derrick Brooks
2003: Ray Lewis
2004: Peyton Manning
2005: Shaun Alexander
2006: LaDainian Tomlinson
2007: Randy Moss (or Tom Brady, but no cheesy co-MVP)
2008: Albert Haynesworth
2009: Darrelle Revis
2010: Tom Brady
2011: Aaron Rodgers
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Somefootballfan
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
Posts: 2004
Location: Interwebz
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think Peyton deserved the 2009 MVP over Brees... But he didn't deserve it in 2008, I think the voters didn't know who to give it to, so gave it to him...
Winners of the MVP are the players most important to their team to win. A player who has a great year on a 8-8 team does not deserve the MVP. They didn't help their team get over .500, so they don't deserve it over someone who was the best player on a 12+ win team.
If we gave a player MVP for individual stats, which we all know can be misleading, Barry Sanders should have like 5 MVP awards, but he doesn't. Jim Brown should have won MVP almost every season he played. Etc.
I don't agree with the Manning 2008 MVP, I think that year should have at least been shared between 2 players, just giving it to Manning, or just any 1 player would have been a terrible decision. It could have been shared by 5 worthy players. Haynesworth, Warner, Harrison, Polamalu, Brees, and of course, Manning himself.
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x0x
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 14014
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:16 am Post subject: So who did Brett Favre have circa 95-97? |
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You know, the three-year stretch which won him 2 MVPs and 1 Co-MVP.
In 1994, Favre had his first 30 TD season, it was his first time passing over 19 TDs actually.
He finished with 33 TDs to 14 picks and 3,882 yards.
His top receiver? Sterling Sharpe, who caught 94 passes and notched 18 TDs.
In 1995, Sharpe was gone, and this, THIS is what remained:
Robert Brooks: 102, 1,497, 13 TDs
Mark Chmura: 54, 679, 7 TDs
Edgar Bennett: 61, 648, 4 TDs
To note, Chmura was the TE and Bennett was a registered FB, who lead the team with just over 1,000 yards rushing.
Brett Favre's numbers were 38 TDs to 13 INTs and 4,412 Yards.
So, Robert Brooks the next Herman Moore? Nah G, 1996's role call:
Antonio Freeman: 56, 933, 9 TDs
Keith Jackson: 40, 505, 10 TDs
Don Beebe: 39, 699, 4 TDs
Nobody else broke 400 yards receiving.
Team rusher? Bennett with 899 yards.
Favre's numbers were 39 TDs to 13 INTs and 3,899 Yards.
So what of 1998? Whalla:
Antonio Freeman: 81, 1243, 12 TDs
Robert Brooks: 60, 1,010, 7 TDs
Dorsey Levens: 53, 370, 5 TDs
Levens ran a ton with over 1,400 yards
Favre's numbers regressed a tad with 35 TDs, 16 INTs and 3,867 Yards.
But there you have it. Three seasons which not only resulted in league MVPs but deep playoff runs.
In all of this, 1997 was by far the strongest supporting cast on offense for Favre, and yet?
Antonio Freeman after 1998 was largely mediocre, and of course Robert Brooks was never an all-pro. So it's your take really.
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Colt45fool
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Posts: 5064
Location: New Haven, CT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| GaTechRavens wrote: | Just for kicks, here's my personal (without any positional bias, except for o-linemen who are impossible to judge in this kind of context) MVP list going back as far as I can. I started watching around 96/97 but obviously didn't have too much of an idea of what was going on until I was a bit older.
1999: Kurt Warner
2000: Ray Lewis
2001: Michael Strahan
2002: Derrick Brooks
2003: Ray Lewis
2004: Peyton Manning
2005: Shaun Alexander
2006: LaDainian Tomlinson
2007: Randy Moss (or Tom Brady, but no cheesy co-MVP)
2008: Albert Haynesworth
2009: Darrelle Revis
2010: Tom Brady
2011: Aaron Rodgers |
I like this and agree with all of it though I'd give Moss the edge for '07 and Steve Smith the edge in '05... |
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E-Man
Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 1185
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| Tzimisce wrote: | | JammerHammer21 wrote: | | Tzimisce wrote: | Shaun Alexander in 2005
Who deserved it? Tiki Barber or Tom Brady
One led a team with an inconsistent 2nd year QB and a middle-of-the-pack offense to an NFC East title at 11-5; the other lost his starting center and left tackle early in the season, had a very thin receiving corps, virtually no running game and a 17th ranked defense, and led his team to an AFC East title at 10-6. |
He may have been a product of the line, but he was a damn good product that year. |
No doubt, but he also fumbled 5 times, only beat out Barber by 20 rush yards and only had 78 receiving yards to Barber's 530. For my money what Barber did as a RB was far more impressive.
And don't even bother bringing up the TD record because we all know how inflated rushing TD numbers can get. 18 of the 27 rush TDs Alexander posted came from 5 yards out or fewer, and 10 of them were from 1 yard. Tiki scored only 11 times, but 7 of those were from > 5 yards out and 6 of his 9 rushing TDs were from > 10 yards out. He had Brandon Jacobs vulture 7 goal line TDs away from him.
If you want to go by the definition of who is most valuable, Barber or Brady were head and shoulders above Alexander that year. That Seahawks team was stacked and could've easily taken their division without him. The Pats were in a dogfight with the Dolphins and the Giants with the Redskins and Cowboys in their respective divisions that year. |
This.
Took the words right outta my mouth.
Couldn't have said it better myself...well done.
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RuskieTitan
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 34371
Location: Front lines of Titania
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Peyton Manning the year he stole the full MVP from Steve McNair.
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RuskieTitan
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 34371
Location: Front lines of Titania
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| E-Man wrote: | | Tzimisce wrote: | | JammerHammer21 wrote: | | Tzimisce wrote: | Shaun Alexander in 2005
Who deserved it? Tiki Barber or Tom Brady
One led a team with an inconsistent 2nd year QB and a middle-of-the-pack offense to an NFC East title at 11-5; the other lost his starting center and left tackle early in the season, had a very thin receiving corps, virtually no running game and a 17th ranked defense, and led his team to an AFC East title at 10-6. |
He may have been a product of the line, but he was a damn good product that year. |
No doubt, but he also fumbled 5 times, only beat out Barber by 20 rush yards and only had 78 receiving yards to Barber's 530. For my money what Barber did as a RB was far more impressive.
And don't even bother bringing up the TD record because we all know how inflated rushing TD numbers can get. 18 of the 27 rush TDs Alexander posted came from 5 yards out or fewer, and 10 of them were from 1 yard. Tiki scored only 11 times, but 7 of those were from > 5 yards out and 6 of his 9 rushing TDs were from > 10 yards out. He had Brandon Jacobs vulture 7 goal line TDs away from him.
If you want to go by the definition of who is most valuable, Barber or Brady were head and shoulders above Alexander that year. That Seahawks team was stacked and could've easily taken their division without him. The Pats were in a dogfight with the Dolphins and the Giants with the Redskins and Cowboys in their respective divisions that year. |
This.
Took the words right outta my mouth.
Couldn't have said it better myself...well done. |
I concur with these statements.
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BlueOne
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1440
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:12 am Post subject: |
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There is no such thing as vulturing TDs, if they thought tiki would punch it in more often he would have gotten the ball at the goalline. Also, you want to talk about punching it in from short yardage, but Shaun scored more tds from outside of 5 yards as well.
| Tzimisce wrote: | Let's not forget that Alexander fumbled 5 times compared to 1 for Tiki, and the fact that Brandon Jacobs vultured 7 goal line TDs from him.
Honestly, rushing TDs have to be the most overrated stat in football in this era because of how much they affect fantasy rankings. It was a record that was broken 3 times in a 5-year span. I think that, to a large extent, devalued the accomplishment.
Bottom line is that Shaun Alexander had a great year in '05 but was not mvp worthy because circumstances were ridiculously accommodating for him to put up monster numbers that year, and when you read between the lines even those monster numbers don't seem as impressive. |
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GaTechRavens
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 15691
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Colt45fool wrote: | | GaTechRavens wrote: | Just for kicks, here's my personal (without any positional bias, except for o-linemen who are impossible to judge in this kind of context) MVP list going back as far as I can. I started watching around 96/97 but obviously didn't have too much of an idea of what was going on until I was a bit older.
1999: Kurt Warner
2000: Ray Lewis
2001: Michael Strahan
2002: Derrick Brooks
2003: Ray Lewis
2004: Peyton Manning
2005: Shaun Alexander
2006: LaDainian Tomlinson
2007: Randy Moss (or Tom Brady, but no cheesy co-MVP)
2008: Albert Haynesworth
2009: Darrelle Revis
2010: Tom Brady
2011: Aaron Rodgers |
I like this and agree with all of it though I'd give Moss the edge for '07 and Steve Smith the edge in '05... |
I still have a bias for special accomplishments even if they might not have been the best individual. Shaun Alexander did that.
Of course, that would call 2003 into question. I still go with Ray Lewis because he had a historically great season of his own and it's hard to find stats for inside linebackers to accomodate that. The fact that Lewis had 6 interceptions that year is probably enough to qualify him, though.
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| ArrowheadRage58 wrote: | | I'd much rather be in our position now than the Ravens, that's for sure. |
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sf49erboy82
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 1098
Location: 4 8 15 16 23 42
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Off the top of my head:
1999: Kurt Warner
2000: Ray Lewis
2001: Marshall Faulk
2002: Derrick Brooks
2003: Peyton Manning
2004: Peyton Manning
2005: Tom Brady
2006: Ladanian Tomlinson
2007: Tom Brady
2008: Phillip Rivers
2009: Peyton Manning
2010: Tom Brady
2011: Aaron Rodgers
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Mossburg
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 38108
Location: Straight Cash Inc. Headquarters
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Tzim nailed it. Alexander was the biggest travesty since I watched football. The Seahawks had the easiest schedule of any team I have ever seen, it was nothing more than a good running back padding stats behind an exceptional line against weak competition. Alexander wasn't even the most important player on his team, Hasselbeck was, as proven in the playoff game against the Skins.
Steve Smith, Tiki Barber, and Tom Brady were all far more deserving.
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Fired-Up
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 788
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| tonyto3690 wrote: | | Fired-Up wrote: | | Bobikus wrote: | | Fired-Up wrote: | | You know these type of threads always amuse me. The key to winning the MVP is to win, win, win and just win baby. If you want to win the MVP lock up the #1 seed. You have to make relevant plays and you have to have relevant stats. Their needs to be legitmacy to your game. That's just how it is. Just win baby. Manning deserved his 2008 and 2009 MVPs based on the fact that he just won. The man won. Isn't that what it's about? |
Winning is a team effort that several dozen people have an impact on each game. MVP is an individual award. |
Yes, but some players clearly have a large impact. Winning is what it's about. Manning wins. Througout his career no player in the NFL has been even as remotely responsible for his teams winning ways as Manning has. |
Yeah it couldn't have anything to do with having a loaded roster in an incredibly weak division.
Put Brady/Brees/Rodgers/any elite QB ever in Peyton's shoes and they win a bunch of games as well. It's debatable whether they score as much points or win more or less games, but lets not pretend like Peyton was carrying a horrible team- as much as ESPN would love to paint it that way.
Manning flaps his arms more than any other QB in the NFL. That doesn't make him more instrumental to team success. He's just a HOF QB who played on very good teams and did a lot of arm waving and most fans have no idea what that means but boy does it look impressive! And I mean Gruden says Peyton is doing something impressive so it must be super difficult and good!
The only MVP that Peyton really earned was in 2004. All three of his other ones were based off name and not actual production or
circumstance. |
I disagree. We saw how important Manning was in 2011 when the Colts went 2-14. That has something to do with Painter, but the facts are the facts. The Colts were a very bad team without Manning. The voters have made it very clear the MVP is not a stats award. It goes to a player who wins a lot. It goes to a player who locks up a #1 seed. It is what it is. Manning wins.
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GaTechRavens
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 15691
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Fired-Up wrote: | | tonyto3690 wrote: | | Fired-Up wrote: | | Bobikus wrote: | | Fired-Up wrote: | | You know these type of threads always amuse me. The key to winning the MVP is to win, win, win and just win baby. If you want to win the MVP lock up the #1 seed. You have to make relevant plays and you have to have relevant stats. Their needs to be legitmacy to your game. That's just how it is. Just win baby. Manning deserved his 2008 and 2009 MVPs based on the fact that he just won. The man won. Isn't that what it's about? |
Winning is a team effort that several dozen people have an impact on each game. MVP is an individual award. |
Yes, but some players clearly have a large impact. Winning is what it's about. Manning wins. Througout his career no player in the NFL has been even as remotely responsible for his teams winning ways as Manning has. |
Yeah it couldn't have anything to do with having a loaded roster in an incredibly weak division.
Put Brady/Brees/Rodgers/any elite QB ever in Peyton's shoes and they win a bunch of games as well. It's debatable whether they score as much points or win more or less games, but lets not pretend like Peyton was carrying a horrible team- as much as ESPN would love to paint it that way.
Manning flaps his arms more than any other QB in the NFL. That doesn't make him more instrumental to team success. He's just a HOF QB who played on very good teams and did a lot of arm waving and most fans have no idea what that means but boy does it look impressive! And I mean Gruden says Peyton is doing something impressive so it must be super difficult and good!
The only MVP that Peyton really earned was in 2004. All three of his other ones were based off name and not actual production or
circumstance. |
I disagree. We saw how important Manning was in 2011 when the Colts went 2-14. That has something to do with Painter, but the facts are the facts. The Colts were a very bad team without Manning. The voters have made it very clear the MVP is not a stats award. It goes to a player who wins a lot. It goes to a player who locks up a #1 seed. It is what it is. Manning wins. |
Except Drew Brees did the exact same thing in 2009 - with indisputably better stats across the board - and Manning still won over him. It's not about winning, it's about name recognition. Manning won the 2009 MVP because his name was Peyton Manning and the other guy's name wasn't.
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| ArrowheadRage58 wrote: | | I'd much rather be in our position now than the Ravens, that's for sure. |
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