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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mozwanted wrote: | I find it funny how people are saying rivers as mvp.
Umm he had a team that was heavily favorite to make a title run who ended up 8-8 and expect to win MVP? u gotta be f'ing kidding me.
You dont win mvp by winning 8 games. |
The reason that team was expected to win a lot was LT.... who was good, but nothing special. And the D was not very good that year. Merriman went out week 1.
He may have been the best player that year. He tied for the lead in TDs on 150 less attempts than the guy he tied with who people say should win MVP.... Warner also had over 100 more attempts....
Rivers did as much as any QB that year on less attempts. He finished behind David freaking Garrard for attempts. |
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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelerspower wrote: |
I don't care |
That's great, you automatically lose then for using stuff that doesn't matter for what we are talking about. Eli was MVP for the season technically then right? Not Rodgers? And Eli was also MVP in 2007, not Brady right? Hilarious stuff SP.  |
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FirstDownFaulk
Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 2993
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| mozwanted wrote: | I find it funny how people are saying rivers as mvp.
Umm he had a team that was heavily favorite to make a title run who ended up 8-8 and expect to win MVP? u gotta be f'ing kidding me.
You dont win mvp by winning 8 games.
And their should be no questions about peytons 08 and 09 mvp because we saw clearly last year how important he was to his team |
I can't believe people still actually believe this is what the award is.....It's simply the player with the best statistics on one of the best, if not, thee best team in the NFL, plain and simple.
The "value" of a player to his team doesn't carry over from year to year when voters cast theirs....they simply look at the statistics, records, remember their bias, and cast their vote.
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Stevan Ridley, Att: 225, Yds: 1010, Y/A: 4.0, TD:9
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Steelerspower
Joined: 13 Jun 2011
Posts: 6540
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that Warner would not have been a good choice in 2008, same for Brees and Rivers
A player should not win the mvp with a record of 8-8...It never happened
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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelerspower wrote: | I agree that Warner would not have been a good choice in 2008, same for Brees and Rivers
A player should not win the mvp with a record of 8-8...It never happened |
Seriously not my point at all.
A player who is the MVP should win MVP, regardless of record. Obviously, NFL voters don't think that, but that's what it should be. |
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Bobikus
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
Posts: 6295
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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The award is a misnomer anyway, but "Highest profile player on a top team" doesn't sound as catchy.
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Geno Smith, Tavon Austin, Stedman Bailey, and Bruce Irvin will all have at least 1 pro bowl season each by the end of the decade.
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Steelerspower
Joined: 13 Jun 2011
Posts: 6540
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| JammerHammer21 wrote: | | Steelerspower wrote: | I agree that Warner would not have been a good choice in 2008, same for Brees and Rivers
A player should not win the mvp with a record of 8-8...It never happened |
Seriously not my point at all.
A player who is the MVP should win MVP, regardless of record. Obviously, NFL voters don't think that, but that's what it should be. |
no....The MVP is the most valuable player to his team...You can not win the mvp with a 8-8 ...
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Bobikus
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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A player on an 8-8 team that would have been 3-13 with an average player at his position instead is more valuable to his team than a player on a 12-4 team that would have been 9-7 with an average player at his position replacing him.
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Geno Smith, Tavon Austin, Stedman Bailey, and Bruce Irvin will all have at least 1 pro bowl season each by the end of the decade.
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Steelerspower
Joined: 13 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobikus wrote: | | A player on an 8-8 team that would have been 3-13 with an average player at his position instead is more valuable to his team than a player on a 12-4 team that would have been 9-7 with an average player at his position replacing him. |
but for 2008,without Peyton Manning,the colts are a team of 4-12
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FirstDownFaulk
Joined: 25 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelerspower wrote: | | Bobikus wrote: | | A player on an 8-8 team that would have been 3-13 with an average player at his position instead is more valuable to his team than a player on a 12-4 team that would have been 9-7 with an average player at his position replacing him. |
but for 2008,without Peyton Manning,the colts are a team of 4-12 |
This is why it's a stupid award with a stupid system. People consider their predictions/prognostications and hypothetical fantasy scenarios when casting their vote.
There's NO WAY anyone would know what the Colts could have been in '08 without Manning....yet I'm sure some people vote based on what they think could/would/should happen. It's stupid.
Basically, I disagree with the whole process. Until there's a formula/equation created to scientifically determine who the undisputed "MVP" is....the whole thing is like voting for homecoming king, its a popularity contest.
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Stevan Ridley, Att: 225, Yds: 1010, Y/A: 4.0, TD:9
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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelerspower wrote: | | Bobikus wrote: | | A player on an 8-8 team that would have been 3-13 with an average player at his position instead is more valuable to his team than a player on a 12-4 team that would have been 9-7 with an average player at his position replacing him. |
but for 2008,without Peyton Manning,the colts are a team of 4-12 |
Like the 08 Pats went 4-12 without reigning MVP Tom Brady right?
(not trying to knock how damn good Brady was in 07, just a situation). |
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Colt45fool
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Posts: 5038
Location: New Haven, CT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| JammerHammer21 wrote: | | jgold72288 wrote: | | Colt45fool wrote: | | jgold72288 wrote: | | Colt45fool wrote: | Manning 2008.
I really, truly believe Chad Pennington deserved to win that year. Ten win difference and had by far his best year as a pro. He was second in the voting and deserved to win with the 10-win improvement of the Dolphins under his belt. |
I could see an argument for Brees or Rivers that year (if the traditional caveat of record, which may or may not be legit, is ignored), but not Pennington. The Dolphins turned over like 11 or 12 starters that year and Pennington wasn't even in the game for a lot of his team's offensive downs. |
Um, what?
The QB of the offense wasn't in the game for a lot of the team's offensive downs? Yeah, they ran the wildcat, but Chad still attempted 476 throws (two times less than Philip Rivers.) And his backs still totaled less runs than he did pass attempts... |
It just seems wrong to attribute a 10 win improvement completely to the quarterback, especially when it was almost a completely different team he led and he wasn't the primary factor opposing DCs accounted for. |
And Ronnie Brown (and somewhat Williams) was huge for that team. |
They were all pieces to a bigger puzzle.
Those guys rushed for 900 & 660 yards respectively, but numbers like that from two backs happen often in two back systems. DeAngelo Williams and Jonathon Stewart are a better tandem in 2011 than those two were in 2008...and Cam Newton's 2011 stole the show in Carolina, not Williams/Stewart. This is a QB-driven league. Look at the list of MVPs in the past few years. QB gets the blame for wins and the blame for losses.
So yeah, Pennington wasn't the sole reason the Dolphins won 10 more games that year. No player is that valuable to their team. Pennington was, however, a major cog at this most important position to an offense that prided itself on protecting the football. Easily the most valuable imo
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Colt45fool
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Location: New Haven, CT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelerspower wrote: | | Bobikus wrote: | | A player on an 8-8 team that would have been 3-13 with an average player at his position instead is more valuable to his team than a player on a 12-4 team that would have been 9-7 with an average player at his position replacing him. |
but for 2008,without Peyton Manning,the colts are a team of 4-12 |
I doubt that. I know the comparisons for the 2008 and 2011 Colts will be strong with this, but let's keep in mind that Tony Dungy isn't a useless coach like his predecessor. .
To put it frank, a Colt team without Peyton and with Dungy will win more than 4 games. That being said any team that loses their franchise QB that is top 5 at the position will struggle without him.
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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Colt45fool wrote: | | JammerHammer21 wrote: | | jgold72288 wrote: | | Colt45fool wrote: | | jgold72288 wrote: | | Colt45fool wrote: | Manning 2008.
I really, truly believe Chad Pennington deserved to win that year. Ten win difference and had by far his best year as a pro. He was second in the voting and deserved to win with the 10-win improvement of the Dolphins under his belt. |
I could see an argument for Brees or Rivers that year (if the traditional caveat of record, which may or may not be legit, is ignored), but not Pennington. The Dolphins turned over like 11 or 12 starters that year and Pennington wasn't even in the game for a lot of his team's offensive downs. |
Um, what?
The QB of the offense wasn't in the game for a lot of the team's offensive downs? Yeah, they ran the wildcat, but Chad still attempted 476 throws (two times less than Philip Rivers.) And his backs still totaled less runs than he did pass attempts... |
It just seems wrong to attribute a 10 win improvement completely to the quarterback, especially when it was almost a completely different team he led and he wasn't the primary factor opposing DCs accounted for. |
And Ronnie Brown (and somewhat Williams) was huge for that team. |
They were all pieces to a bigger puzzle.
Those guys rushed for 900 & 660 yards respectively, but numbers like that from two backs happen often in two back systems. DeAngelo Williams and Jonathon Stewart are a better tandem in 2011 than those two were in 2008...and Cam Newton's 2011 stole the show in Carolina, not Williams/Stewart. This is a QB-driven league. Look at the list of MVPs in the past few years. QB gets the blame for wins and the blame for losses.
So yeah, Pennington wasn't the sole reason the Dolphins won 10 more games that year. No player is that valuable to their team. Pennington was, however, a major cog at this most important position to an offense that prided itself on protecting the football. Easily the most valuable imo |
They were 24th in scoring and they won some of the games using the Wildcat extensively. Pennington was good, but nothing special at all. Definitely not the MVP. |
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Tzimisce
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 40627
Location: Slowly coming to terms with the inevitable
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Shaun Alexander in 2005
Who deserved it? Tiki Barber or Tom Brady
One led a team with an inconsistent 2nd year QB and a middle-of-the-pack offense to an NFC East title at 11-5; the other lost his starting center and left tackle early in the season, had a very thin receiving corps, virtually no running game and a 17th ranked defense, and led his team to an AFC East title at 10-6.
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