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Gmen


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
The problem with sole positional importance would mean good players like Victor Cruz need to take a free fall for players like Vick or Smith.

Eli is a good QB. But he is not a sure HOFer. Eli often does very little to impress me. He didn't finish in top 5 in TDs. He didn't finish in top 3 in Yards. He didn't finish in top 10 completion percentage. I actually think Eli should be lower, but that's just me (albeit it's just by 1 spot I have him lower). But again. My vote didn't count.

I find it difficult to believe that Cowboys fans aren't impressed by Eli.

In the last 6 meeting Eli is..
5-1 W/L record
64% completion %
333 Yards per game average
15 TDs to 7 INTs

I would say the dominating factor in you ranking Eli low is hatred more than anything.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GmenSeattle wrote:


If he retired today Eli would be in the HoF. You may not agree with it but that's the way it would be. But that's a whole other debate.

Yes, I forgot Ware. Which doesn't make things much better because he's not better than Eli or JPP...frankly I think Tuck is way too low as well.


I mean, I think there are a lot of people in the HOF that should not be there. And several who are not in, that should be. Beauty of opinions.

I will say this though. Of 2 Cowboy, 2 Redskins, 2 Eagles fans. Not one of them had Eli better than Ware. Would you then not assume you are being biased?

And for what it's worth...I think Nicks and Tuck are too low. As is a few other players.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
The problem with sole positional importance would mean good players like Victor Cruz need to take a free fall for players like Vick or Smith.

Eli is a good QB. But he is not a sure HOFer. Eli often does very little to impress me. He didn't finish in top 5 in TDs. He didn't finish in top 3 in Yards. He didn't finish in top 10 completion percentage. I actually think Eli should be lower, but that's just me (albeit it's just by 1 spot I have him lower). But again. My vote didn't count.

I find it difficult to believe that Cowboys fans aren't impressed by Eli.

In the last 6 meeting Eli is..
5-1 W/L record
64% completion %
333 Yards per game average
15 TDs to 7 INTs

I would say the dominating factor in you ranking Eli low is hatred more than anything.


Laughing

I really enjoy your posts. I really do. Because I sometimes wonder what you drink before you post.

So you are asking me to ignore Eli's body of work and focus on just one thing? Child please.

Eli is very good. On my personal list (which is not impacted the rankings) he was 5th. The way you make it sound is as if I insulted Eli and slapped his mother and desecrated his ancestors grave.

But. For one FINAL clarity. Since I know reading comprehension is a challenge for you. I didn't influence the rankings. There were two Cowboy fans, two redskins, two eagles fans. None of them agreed with you. I would have loved some Giant representation. I didn't get any. Either way....unless you could have convinced several individuals to change their vote Eli would not have been number 1. This isn't an exercise in glorifying one team over the other. This is trying to be as unbiased as possible. Which I understand you have no idea how to do that.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allow me to give you an example of being unbiased.

I personally feel Romo is a better QB than Eli. Yes, yes, Eli has the rings. Fantastic. But QB play I think Romo has done more with less. However...in my rankings I ranked Romo lower than Eli. Why? Because the point of this wasn't to try to an push my own agenda. Of the 6 rankings, not one person put Romo above Eli. While...again...I don't agree with it internally, I do understand the logic and I can accept it. I put my homer shades down. I challenge yo to do the same.

EDIT: Before you go there. I am not going to have this turn into an Eli/Romo debate. I won't respond to it. Eli has had a better career by virtue of the Rings. I believe that for one game or one season Romo would be better. But that is not the intent of this thread nor the point of the exercise. If you are interested feel free to start a thread here. Or we can have another Eli sig bet.

But I still challenge ALL of you to create your own top 25 list. And be as unbiased as possible. It's not easy. And I think the six did a great job. I don't agree with all points of the list - but overall I think it is fundamentally sounds. I can tell you no one was happy with the finalize placement. Because of instinctive homerism. But they compromised and I am proud of them for doing so.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
The problem with sole positional importance would mean good players like Victor Cruz need to take a free fall for players like Vick or Smith.

Eli is a good QB. But he is not a sure HOFer. Eli often does very little to impress me. He didn't finish in top 5 in TDs. He didn't finish in top 3 in Yards. He didn't finish in top 10 completion percentage. I actually think Eli should be lower, but that's just me (albeit it's just by 1 spot I have him lower). But again. My vote didn't count.

I find it difficult to believe that Cowboys fans aren't impressed by Eli.

In the last 6 meeting Eli is..
5-1 W/L record
64% completion %
333 Yards per game average
15 TDs to 7 INTs

I would say the dominating factor in you ranking Eli low is hatred more than anything.


Then Romo is definitely too low, right? If you look at his last 7 full games against the Giants (taking out 2010 game even though Romo was dominating that game before he got injured), Romo has

68% completion %
281 ypg
20 TDs
6 Ints

In a 16 game season, that works out to be 4496 yards with a 68% completion pecentage, 46 TDs, and 13 INTs. Romo stats vs giants are clearly better than Eli's stats vs. Cowboys (with the exception of yards). So, I guess that make Romo #1 and Eli #2?
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Then Romo is definitely too low, right? If you look at his last 7 full games against the Giants (taking out 2010 game even though Romo was dominating that game before he got injured), Romo has

68% completion %
281 ypg
20 TDs
6 Ints

In a 16 game season, that works out to be 4496 yards with a 68% completion pecentage, 46 TDs, and 13 INTs. Romo stats vs giants are clearly better than Eli's stats vs. Cowboys (with the exception of yards). So, I guess that make Romo #1 and Eli #2?

Romo is too low. I have him ranked two spots higher than your list. And there is no denying that Romo puts up good numbers. But at the end of the day, the win loss column is the difference between Romo and Eli. Not only in the head to head matchups, where Eli comes through in the clutch, but in general. Eli has won 7 road playoff games in his career, and two Superbowls where he came through in the clutch. Romo has won 1 playoff game, and choked away several. The difference between me having Eli #1 and Romo #5 is that one is a born winner, the other is a born loser. Some might argue that the gap should be greater, but I have some respect for Romo's talent.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to say it guys but we are looking rather hypocritical in this thread considering Texas_OutLaw7 requested one of us step up and none of us did. http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=496446. Now we are criticizing the list?
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GmenSeattle


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
GmenSeattle wrote:


If he retired today Eli would be in the HoF. You may not agree with it but that's the way it would be. But that's a whole other debate.

Yes, I forgot Ware. Which doesn't make things much better because he's not better than Eli or JPP...frankly I think Tuck is way too low as well.


I mean, I think there are a lot of people in the HOF that should not be there. And several who are not in, that should be. Beauty of opinions.

I will say this though. Of 2 Cowboy, 2 Redskins, 2 Eagles fans. Not one of them had Eli better than Ware. Would you then not assume you are being biased?

And for what it's worth...I think Nicks and Tuck are too low. As is a few other players.


You do realize that we usually have to defend Eli the most to Redskins/Eagles/Cowboys fans? Razz
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Then Romo is definitely too low, right? If you look at his last 7 full games against the Giants (taking out 2010 game even though Romo was dominating that game before he got injured), Romo has

68% completion %
281 ypg
20 TDs
6 Ints

In a 16 game season, that works out to be 4496 yards with a 68% completion pecentage, 46 TDs, and 13 INTs. Romo stats vs giants are clearly better than Eli's stats vs. Cowboys (with the exception of yards). So, I guess that make Romo #1 and Eli #2?

Romo is too low. I have him ranked two spots higher than your list. And there is no denying that Romo puts up good numbers. But at the end of the day, the win loss column is the difference between Romo and Eli. Not only in the head to head matchups, where Eli comes through in the clutch, but in general. Eli has won 7 road playoff games in his career, and two Superbowls where he came through in the clutch. Romo has won 1 playoff game, and choked away several. The difference between me having Eli #1 and Romo #5 is that one is a born winner, the other is a born loser. Some might argue that the gap should be greater, but I have some respect for Romo's talent.


No. The difference is Eli throws into triple coverage and his WR makes a miracle catch off his helmet. The difference is that on multiple occasions, Eli hits a cornerback perfectly in stride for an INT and likely pick 6 but the CB drops it. The difference is that Romo hits his own WR perfectly in stride for what would be a huge gain and possible game sealer, but Romo's WR drops the ball. The difference is that Romo throws a perfect pass to a wide open WR but the WR loses the ball in the lights. Or, Romo moves the ball down the field at the end of the game and the FG kicker kicks the ball too low or the HC freezes his own FG kicker. In a nutshell, Eli has benefited from some of the luckiest plays in NFL history. Romo can only throw the ball to open receivers... he can't catch it for them too.

Like TO7 said, this isn't a Romo vs Eli thread. I'm just saying that history would be very different if Romo ever got some of the lucky breaks that Eli has.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Gmen wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Then Romo is definitely too low, right? If you look at his last 7 full games against the Giants (taking out 2010 game even though Romo was dominating that game before he got injured), Romo has

68% completion %
281 ypg
20 TDs
6 Ints

In a 16 game season, that works out to be 4496 yards with a 68% completion pecentage, 46 TDs, and 13 INTs. Romo stats vs giants are clearly better than Eli's stats vs. Cowboys (with the exception of yards). So, I guess that make Romo #1 and Eli #2?

Romo is too low. I have him ranked two spots higher than your list. And there is no denying that Romo puts up good numbers. But at the end of the day, the win loss column is the difference between Romo and Eli. Not only in the head to head matchups, where Eli comes through in the clutch, but in general. Eli has won 7 road playoff games in his career, and two Superbowls where he came through in the clutch. Romo has won 1 playoff game, and choked away several. The difference between me having Eli #1 and Romo #5 is that one is a born winner, the other is a born loser. Some might argue that the gap should be greater, but I have some respect for Romo's talent.


No. The difference is Eli throws into triple coverage and his WR makes a miracle catch off his helmet. The difference is that on multiple occasions, Eli hits a cornerback perfectly in stride for an INT and likely pick 6 but the CB drops it. The difference is that Romo hits his own WR perfectly in stride for what would be a huge gain and possible game sealer, but Romo's WR drops the ball. The difference is that Romo throws a perfect pass to a wide open WR but the WR loses the ball in the lights. Or, Romo moves the ball down the field at the end of the game and the FG kicker kicks the ball too low or the HC freezes his own FG kicker. In a nutshell, Eli has benefited from some of the luckiest plays in NFL history. Romo can only throw the ball to open receivers... he can't catch it for them too.

Like TO7 said, this isn't a Romo vs Eli thread. I'm just saying that history would be very different if Romo ever got some of the lucky breaks that Eli has.


So much fail in this post.

Just curious though. Is any loss ever Romo's fault? Is any win ever to Eli's credit? Laughing
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Gmen wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Then Romo is definitely too low, right? If you look at his last 7 full games against the Giants (taking out 2010 game even though Romo was dominating that game before he got injured), Romo has

68% completion %
281 ypg
20 TDs
6 Ints

In a 16 game season, that works out to be 4496 yards with a 68% completion pecentage, 46 TDs, and 13 INTs. Romo stats vs giants are clearly better than Eli's stats vs. Cowboys (with the exception of yards). So, I guess that make Romo #1 and Eli #2?

Romo is too low. I have him ranked two spots higher than your list. And there is no denying that Romo puts up good numbers. But at the end of the day, the win loss column is the difference between Romo and Eli. Not only in the head to head matchups, where Eli comes through in the clutch, but in general. Eli has won 7 road playoff games in his career, and two Superbowls where he came through in the clutch. Romo has won 1 playoff game, and choked away several. The difference between me having Eli #1 and Romo #5 is that one is a born winner, the other is a born loser. Some might argue that the gap should be greater, but I have some respect for Romo's talent.


No. The difference is Eli throws into triple coverage and his WR makes a miracle catch off his helmet. The difference is that on multiple occasions, Eli hits a cornerback perfectly in stride for an INT and likely pick 6 but the CB drops it. The difference is that Romo hits his own WR perfectly in stride for what would be a huge gain and possible game sealer, but Romo's WR drops the ball. The difference is that Romo throws a perfect pass to a wide open WR but the WR loses the ball in the lights. Or, Romo moves the ball down the field at the end of the game and the FG kicker kicks the ball too low or the HC freezes his own FG kicker. In a nutshell, Eli has benefited from some of the luckiest plays in NFL history. Romo can only throw the ball to open receivers... he can't catch it for them too.

Like TO7 said, this isn't a Romo vs Eli thread. I'm just saying that history would be very different if Romo ever got some of the lucky breaks that Eli has.

Eli Manning is near the top of the list in terms of 4rth quarter comebacks, and when it's all said and done, he may very well likely be number one. Your "lucky" argument would hold some water if it happened in a few isolated games. But when you have 8 in one season, that's not luck anymore. When you do it in two Superbowls, that's not luck anymore. That's called having balls of steel. Or if you prefer something a bit more tame, "call it magic". Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting read and I suspect no two posters would ever come up with the same list. My view is slightly different because I place impact on games at more of a premium than just the stats (hence my view of both Ware and Romo).

With that in mind, DeMarcus Ware would not top the list as the best player in the NFC East. I do not believe that Ware is even the best player on his team -- for me the honor goes to Witten. Ware has some eye-popping stats for sure but IMHO he use to disappear in the 4th QTR of games -- more recently he actually has hurt his team with pretty bad penalties that has kept opponents' drives alive especially in the 4th QTR.

My list

1. Eli Manning Leader, Winner, Durable, Humble, 2 time Champion and future HOF (like it or not dude is going to Canton if he continues to be "lucky" Smile). Probably the most unpopular QB in the league-- certainly in the NFC East and easily the most discredited.

2. Jason Witten - This guy is the epitome of both toughness and without him I think that Dallas is a completely different team. He can dominate a game on offense like few TEs in the league.

3. Jason Pierre Paul. JPP dominates games and recently has seemingly single-handidly won some games.

4. LeSean McCoy. Westbrook reincarnated in terms of impact but he would be higher if he could consistently get that tough 3rd and 1. I am hopeful that David Wilson can be half the RB McCoy is. Every time he touches the ball you have to hold your breath.

5. Trent Cole. The defensive player most Giants fans fear most in the division (at least I do). When Dawkins left the Eagles Cole assumed the mantle of leadership on the D. Dude has a motor like LT. One of the most complete DEs in the game.

6. Sean Lee. Throwback player. One of the best LBs in the division and natural leader. The hype is around Ware. This guy right here is a football player.

7. Justin Tuck. The heart and soul of the Giants defense. Versatile player that can dominate both inside and outside. Injuries usually slow him down.

8. DeMarcus Ware. See above.

9. London Fletcher. Both the heart and soul and QB of the defense. A true professional and leader.

10. Hakeem Nicks. The best WR in the division.

11. Victor Cruz. The second best WR in the division Smile

12. Michael Vick. While injury prone and historically had difficulty reading the blitz there is no denying that athletic talent that Vick is.

13. Tony Romo. Athletically talented. Doesn't get the "lucky" breaks Eli gets so he slips Smile Refs give him slippery balls during holds for FG attempts; the lights always gets in WRs eyes, bad stuff seems to always happen. [Ignore the Plan quote]

14. DeSean Jackson. I think Jackson is more dangerous as a returner than a WR but there is no denying that he can change a game anytime the ball is in his hands. I would have ranked him further down but I saw a piece about him taking a young boy who had been bullied in school under his wing. Classy move for a player I've thought to be classless on the field.

15. Tyron Smith. Best tackle in the division. He is going to be good for a long time.

16. Brian Orakpo. OLs need to account for this dude on every down.

17. Todd Herremans. Lunch pail blue collar worker. Versatile. Valuable.

T18. Nnamdi Asomugha. Good CB that is often hyped as a "great" CB or "second best" in the league. My opinion has not changed since when he was with the Raiders.

T18. Corey Webster. Tied with Nnamdi at the 18 spot on the list. Has been the steady consistent CB usually taking the best opposing WR. No hype just gets the job done.

19. Miles Austin. Cowboys #1 big play receiver. Likely Romo's security blanket if Witten is out for any period of time.

20. DeMarco Murray. Dallas realized his value after he went down against the Giants. Not too far behind McCoy and if he can stay healthy will be scary to deal with.

Honorable mention:

T21. Jason Babin. Career revived with Washburn. Great motor. I refer to him as Osi light because he gets up the field fast to the QB but without the Osi forced fumble type of impact.

22. Ryan Kerrigan. Great young LB/DE.

23. Steve Weatherford. Giants fans can appreciate why this guy gets honorable mention. Last season most Giants fans would argue this dude was the MVP. His ability to maintain incredible field position with his Jeff Feagles - like directional kicking were the stats that never make the box scores.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love the fact you made a list. And I commend you for doing so. Of course, we won't agree on every point (and I can say of the six list I receive no two were identical. Which is to be expected). I am shocked to see Witten so high (That was far and away the highest ranking he even came close to receiving) but I understand your reasoning.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding Ware vs Eli for top spot, wouldn't you have LT over Aikman on an All-Time list? Ware is a future HOFer making a strong case for one of the GOAT at his spot while Eli will get in like Aikman - solid stats with elevated playoff stats and multiple rings.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
Regarding Ware vs Eli for top spot, wouldn't you have LT over Aikman on an All-Time list? Ware is a future HOFer making a strong case for one of the GOAT at his spot while Eli will get in like Aikman - solid stats with elevated playoff stats and multiple rings.


Eli isn't playing with 2 all time HoF greats in their primes at WR and RB.
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