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Cardinals vs. Chiefs GAME DAY THREAD!! WOOT!!!
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Desmond


Joined: 05 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
also, not sure if you could see it on TV but Stanzi's overthrow of Bellamy he was ticked off and pointing as if Bellamy should have run his route closer to the sideline.

Palko pointed and looked ticked off too. Laughing
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ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ptbarcus wrote:


So he's not the best QB on the roster because he doesn't play with the backups or throw into coverage? Isn't that the point of playing starting QB in the NFL??


I think what I said/meant was pretty obvious, but maybe you didn't see the game. All his completions were to wide open receivers without any pressure on him. Like I said, he showed nice touch on those passes, but we've seen 2010 Cassel do this. What most of us want to see from him is make some completions under pressure or to receivers who aren't perfectly open....luckily he didn't need to in this game, but Stanzi didn't have all those open guys.

When the sledding gets tough and at some point it will, are you confident in Cassel to make the necessary reads and throws? I can see Stanzi making those throws and we've seen that ability from him. It's obviously not hard to imagine Stanzi making all those throws Cassel made with the 1st team either.

Evaluations and perceptions of a QB can be easily warped or swayed simply by who they are playing with. Stanzi has never played with any kind of 1st or even 2nd team in his 4 preseason games and he's looked every bit as good as Cassel from '09, early '10, and '11. How do you think each would do if roles were reversed? Hopefully we get to find out...atleast Stanzi with the #1's.

I'm supremely confident Stanzi is the better QB for this team and that won't change until we see him fall short with the #1 group or we see Cassel make some tougher/under pressure throws. Is there anybody that really thinks Cassel cemented his title of best KC QB by his performance on Friday. Was simply hitting the open receivers on the run from a comfy pocket all you needed to see to convince you that he's the guy and/or better than ever? Yes the TD to Hillis was "nice" and very well done, but if that play is made by most NFL QB's it's not gonna be talked about like it was for Cassel. That play SHOULD be made by an NFL QB, we're making it sound better than it was. Stanzi's fade throw for a non-TD was more impressive to me.

I'm not "finding" the negative in Cassel, my review of his game was positive. He threw the ball well. I think the majority here are trying to "find" or convince themselves that his clean, efficient, take what is there performance was better than it actually.
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KC_Guy


Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:

What most of us want to see from him is make some completions under pressure
WRONG - I don't want to see any pressure on the QB - especially not so he can prove how gutsy he is.

Quote:
... or to receivers who aren't perfectly open ...
WRONG - I prefer a QB who throws to wide open receivers.

Quote:
When the sledding gets tough and at some point it will, are you confident in Cassel to make the necessary reads and throws?
He did on Friday - he found the wide open receivers and avoided the pressure.

Quote:
I can see Stanzi making those throws and we've seen that ability from him.
CORRECT - he did not find the wide open receivers.

Quote:
It's obviously not hard to imagine Stanzi making all those throws Cassel made with the 1st team either.
Not sure - but if so: why do you complain about Cassel making the easy ones?

Quote:
Evaluations and perceptions of a QB can be easily warped or swayed
Correct, we've got some specialists for that ...

and so on and so on ...

Will be my last post on the Cassel debate. He proved he's LIGHTYEARS ahead of the other two guys - at least he was last Friday.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
Arrowhead86 wrote:
Stanzi's 1st ball.. nice fade but defender forces Newsome out of bounds on the catch.. well played by the CB

Newseom would have been well served to stop his momentum and jump straight up.. make the defender run through him.. kinda had momentum going making it an easy push out.


if he'd have caught it with his hands instead of his chest he might have been able to come down with it.

If it was Dwayne Bowe or Jonathan Baldwin it wouldve been a TD for sure
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DT58_lives_on


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are going to fault Cassel's ability to make throws because he's with the first team, let's not just ignore the other facts as you are so prone to do with the Cassel or really any debate.

Cassel made all the throws he needed to, only having one incomplete pass. You are right this was with the first team offense. It was also against the first team defense, and a defense that was ranked fairly high last year.

Stanzi didn't do nearly as well, and yes it was with the third string offense. It was also against the third team defense. I'm not saying he was terrible, but if he was clearly the best QB on the roster, he should have destroyed the 3rd team D, not struggled to get by.

You say we've seen Stanzi make all the throws, when was this? Last year in preseason yes he looked good against the second and third team defenses he faced. He did not however look that good this week. Now I'm hoping he gets better, because honestly if he doesn't, I'm ready to see Tanney get a shot to see what he can do too. Same goes for Quinn.
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Arrowhead86


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AP breakdown of the Cassel to Hillis TD with pictures.. pretty cool.

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2012/8/11/3235724/matt-cassel-peyton-hillis-kansas-city-chiefs-preseason-schedule-2012


There's also a 1st teamers overall breakdown play by play that's worth reading..

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2012/8/11/3236042/breaking-down-the-first-team
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DT58_lives_on


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just gonna stick this in here. Remember when I was pushing us to sign Russell Wilson, certainly looked better than our back-ups this week!
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Desmond


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DT58_lives_on wrote:
I'm just gonna stick this in here. Remember when I was pushing us to sign Russell Wilson, certainly looked better than our back-ups this week!

I understood the reasoning behind the Stephenson pick, but I really did want Wilson at that pick. Makes it even more painful since Seattle took him the very next pick.
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Rearviewmirror


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
Rearviewmirror wrote:
Arrowhead86 wrote:
Stanzi's 1st ball.. nice fade but defender forces Newsome out of bounds on the catch.. well played by the CB

Newseom would have been well served to stop his momentum and jump straight up.. make the defender run through him.. kinda had momentum going making it an easy push out.


if he'd have caught it with his hands instead of his chest he might have been able to come down with it.

If it was Dwayne Bowe or Jonathan Baldwin it wouldve been a TD for sure


I'd bet Hemingway would have caught it too. He's a very good high pointer.
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Chiefer


Joined: 20 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: G Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
Chiefer wrote:
Rearviewmirror wrote:
Arrowhead86 wrote:
Stanzi's 1st ball.. nice fade but defender forces Newsome out of bounds on the catch.. well played by the CB

Newseom would have been well served to stop his momentum and jump straight up.. make the defender run through him.. kinda had momentum going making it an easy push out.


if he'd have caught it with his hands instead of his chest he might have been able to come down with it.

If it was Dwayne Bowe or Jonathan Baldwin it wouldve been a TD for sure


I'd bet Hemingway would have caught it too. He's a very good high pointer.

Ive heard that, and hes good at making the tough catch.

Edit: as far as this debate with Cassel, look the guy had a good game. How anybody can fault him for taking advantage of the defense is beyond me. If anything fault the defense for not doing a proper job in challenging him. Hitting the easy open WR is what youre supposed to do.

Of course, I still want Stanzi to be given the opportunity to start and play with the ones. Tom Brady wouldve never be the HOFer he is today if you based his play on preseasons before Drew Bledsoe got injured. Now, im not saying that Stanzi is the next Brady or a HOFer, but he could be pretty darn good when the weight is put on his shoulders.
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Rearviewmirror


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
Rearviewmirror wrote:
Chiefer wrote:
Rearviewmirror wrote:
Arrowhead86 wrote:
Stanzi's 1st ball.. nice fade but defender forces Newsome out of bounds on the catch.. well played by the CB

Newseom would have been well served to stop his momentum and jump straight up.. make the defender run through him.. kinda had momentum going making it an easy push out.


if he'd have caught it with his hands instead of his chest he might have been able to come down with it.

If it was Dwayne Bowe or Jonathan Baldwin it wouldve been a TD for sure


I'd bet Hemingway would have caught it too. He's a very good high pointer.

Ive heard that, and hes good at making the tough catch.


Newsome, Bellamy, and Horne were all horrendous. They can't get open, they can't catch, and they do stupid things. They all had terrible games. Horne was the worst though with the holding call. Won't be surprised to see any of the 3 cut soon.
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Their opponent-
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Diesel2692


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah i've never thought any of those three had a chance of making team anyway. Most that could happen would be one like Bellamy to PS imo.
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KC_Guy wrote:

What most of us want to see from him is make some completions under pressure

WRONG - I don't want to see any pressure on the QB - especially not so he can prove how gutsy he is.



So basically, you are counting on a clean pocket and wide open receivers all year long. Do you have any idea how unrealistic that is? Of course we WANT open receivers and no pressure on the QB, but this is the NFL and you don't win anything without doing damage against pressure/coverage.

I was under the impression that Cassel needed to prove himself to most of you...I had no idea that was simply play one good quarter under circumstances similar to 2010, while the backups play under less glorious circumstances and look the worst for it.

Notice I said "I want to see our QB make some completions when he's under pressure" and you turned that into "I want to see pressure on our QB"...are we trying to see how childish we can get? For all those who are either naive or just wanting to argue, we don't want pressure on our QB or covered receivers, but we should want to see him do well when those tougher circumstances do occur before we crown him the best of the three.


Last edited by ArrowheadRage58 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:04 pm; edited 4 times in total
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DT58_lives_on


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So those of us saying that Cassel played the best out of the three are naive. But the guy saying Stanzi who couldn't get the best of the other team's third string was better is what again?

I understand you have some unreasonable hatred for Cassel, I don't think any of us really think that he's going to suddenly become Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, but it's hard to understand how you can say he didn't play the best, because the other team's defense wasn't good enough? Think of it this way, if Stanzi would have started and everything would have played out exactly the same, are you telling me you would be making the argument that we need to hold back on our opinions of Stanzi because he only had open receivers? Step off the soap box man and just be happy the team played well.
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DT58_lives_on wrote:
If you are going to fault Cassel's ability to make throws because he's with the first team, let's not just ignore the other facts as you are so prone to do with the Cassel or really any debate.

Cassel made all the throws he needed to, only having one incomplete pass. You are right this was with the first team offense. It was also against the first team defense, and a defense that was ranked fairly high last year.



*I did not fault his throws with the first team and in no way was criticizing the way he took advantage of the Cardinals, he made very nice throws/decisions. Just stating that we still need to see him in various other situations and people somehow completely missed the point.

*Regarding 1st team/3rd team offense/defense. Which KC OL, receivers, and RB's did better against their counterparts...the 1st team or the 3rd team? Would Cassel have destroyed the 3rd team D, in your opinion?

*The "naive" comment was for anyone taking my post as "I want our QB to be under pressure" as opposed to "I want to see our QB make some good throws when he's under pressure". It was either naive or simply wanting to argue.

*If Stanzi had started and it had played out the same, it wouldn be ho-hum...It wouldn't convince me he's a legit starter and it wouldn't be surprising either. We've seen Cassel hit the open receivers when the run games going good in 2010. But Cassel has a past and history of not being able to make certain throws/reads, etc.... Stanzi doesn't have that past...we know he can make throws that Cassel can't. But I guess for the non-believers, they need to see him also have an efficient Cassel like performance when the 1st team dominates the defense. If a short, simple performance like that is all it takes to convince you he's as good or better than Cassel, it's a shame we may not see him with the opportunity.

*I'm convinced he can do better than Cassel, I'm just curious to see him against some tough situations with/against the #1's just like I am Cassel to see if he can be a true franchise QB or just simply "better than Cassel". One step at a time though I guess...
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