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ahoda


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a pretty good article imo.

http://www.blessyouboys.com/2012/10/3/3448684/the-triple-crown-still-matters-dont-let-anybody-tell-you-otherwise
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
Interesting note: Not all Triple Crown winners have won the MVP in their triple crown season.

Just something to chew on.

Taken at face value, that makes sense. Then, when you consider that those situations happened in the 1940s, and the Triple Crown has since become an extremely rare and incredible feat, doesn't that change things?

The players who won the MVP award in 1942 and 1947, Joe Gordon and Joe DiMaggio, had 12 and 3 stolen bases during those seasons. If we're going to use the fact that they won instead of a Triple Crown winner, shouldn't we consider why they won? It doesn't appear that SBs were a factor at all (which are a significant part of Trout's argument). DiMaggio had 32 SOs in 1947. Trout has had 139. If we're referencing the 1940s, should we put more weight into SOs?

It just seemed like a completely different time. To use the fact that a Triple Crown winner didn't win in the 1940s as leverage doesn't sound right to me.


Using the Triple Crown as an argument at all is bewildering to me. The reason being, what if some guy like Ichiro hit .350, Adam Dunn hit 50 HRs, and someone like Mark Teixiera hut 150 RBIs, does that make Cabrera any more or less valuable? No.

So while the Triple Crown is a nice feat, it isnt a good way to base a players value, because it compares him to other players' seasons.

My argument is taking these players' statistics at face value, only comparing Cabrera to Trout, here. Now, when I refer to MVP, Im talking best all around player this year. Even though he missed the first month, Trout, to me, has been worth more to his team. He doesnt carry the same offensive numbers, but the value he adds with his defense and base-stealing and base-running makes up for and surpasses his value, to me.

Other factors, such as which team makes the playoffs, other players stats to enable Cabby to win the Triple Crown, are irrelevant to me. Best player=MVP=Trout, for me.

No sabermetrics here.

So when you brought up the fact that the Triple Crown winner didn't win the MVP in the 1940s, you were only taking it as far to dilute Cabrera's feat, but not far enough to dilute Trout's season? It sounds too... easy. One could say that the MVPs those seasons weren't base-stealers, so lets not put emphasis on Trout's stolen basses. Surely that wouldn't be reasonable.

That comment just seemed too convenient.


I dont value the Triple Crown into MVP, but I know you guys do. I thought it might sway you guys away from the Triple Crown=MVP mindset. I guess it did not Laughing


It's interesting that you don't value the rarest accomplishment in baseball in the MVP discussion. It's actually quite incredible.

Instead I must assume your someone who puts faith in some stat that isn't even the result on an agreed upon equation.

In 1933 Chuck Klein had the triple crown but lost the MVP to pitcher Carl Hubbel who was 23-12 ERA 1.66. Kleins team finished last while Hubbel's team won the NL pennant.

In 1934 the MVP voting was ridiculous and the player who won wasn't even the MVP on his own team.

In 42 and 47 Ted Williams won the triple crown but its been pretty well documented he didn't win the MVP because he didn't like the media. Williams lead the league by a wide margin in every offensive category.

You discount Cabrera claiming players around him helped his stats but why don't you be consistent in that thought process. The Angels as a team rate higher than Detroit in almost every offensive category so from my perspective Trout gets more help from team mates than Cabrera.

If we look at base stealing which is part of your argument the Angels team is more dependant on stealing while Leyland rarely calls for a steal. The Angels were third in stolen bases while the Tigers were dead last.

A good part of successful base stealing is an effective hitter at the plate. A hitter knowing when to foul a pitch off to protect the runner is as important as the runner himself. Trout scored 20 more runs which was a stat certainly helped by those following him in the batting order. Their ability to advance the runner is a great aid to Trout.

You seem to also be ignoring Trouts strike out numbers as well. 139k's in 556 plate appearances isn't exactly great is it.

Ahoda posted a very good article from a sabre metrics dude and he certainly recognizes the accomplishments of Cabrerra.

As for team accomplishment it wouldn't have mattered if Trout played this year. His team isn't in the playoff's. The same cant be said for Cabrera. Had he not played the Tigers wouldn't be in the post season.

So I strongly disagree with your position but I could respect it if you were consistent in discounting both players team mates and didnt simply dismiss Cabrera's achievements suggesting they don't matter in the MVP discussion.
Batting average, power numbers, home runs, RBI's, Slugging % are all important numbers. It just seems any stat where Cabrera is ahead of Trout you conveniently suggest those stats aren't as important.
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SadLionFan00


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:


It's interesting that you don't value the rarest accomplishment in baseball in the MVP discussion. It's actually quite incredible.


Its a rare coincidence. Its not a great accomplishment. Again, I ask, if Josh Hamilton hits two HRs today and Miguel hits none, and he doesnt win the triple crown, is his season any worse? No.

Winning the triple crown factors in opponents play. That, and it is only a hitting statistic.

Quote:
Instead I must assume your someone who puts faith in some stat that isn't even the result on an agreed upon equation.


No. I look at WAR, but dont value it. Chase Headly has a higher WAR than Cabby, but, to me, Cabby is the better and more valueable player.

Quote:
In 1933 Chuck Klein had the triple crown but lost the MVP to pitcher Carl Hubbel who was 23-12 ERA 1.66. Kleins team finished last while Hubbel's team won the NL pennant.


Whether or not a team gets into the playoffs does not determine who the best player is. To me Best player is the MVP. The flawed voting in the past should not affect the voting now.

Quote:
In 42 and 47 Ted Williams won the triple crown but its been pretty well documented he didn't win the MVP because he didn't like the media. Williams lead the league by a wide margin in every offensive category.


K? Not sure what youre getting at.

Quote:
You discount Cabrera claiming players around him helped his stats but why don't you be consistent in that thought process. The Angels as a team rate higher than Detroit in almost every offensive category so from my perspective Trout gets more help from team mates than Cabrera.


No I dont. I discount the triple crown because it is based on the fact that Miguel happened to lead the league in HRs. His individual season is not any more or less valueable based on how other players do.

Quote:
If we look at base stealing which is part of your argument the Angels team is more dependant on stealing while Leyland rarely calls for a steal. The Angels were third in stolen bases while the Tigers were dead last.


Cuz we have no speed. If Trout was on this team, I guarentee he would have a similar amount of steals.

Quote:
A good part of successful base stealing is an effective hitter at the plate. A hitter knowing when to foul a pitch off to protect the runner is as important as the runner himself. Trout scored 20 more runs which was a stat certainly helped by those following him in the batting order. Their ability to advance the runner is a great aid to Trout.


In the same way Cabrera having almost 40% (IIRC) of his at bats with runners on base.

Quote:
You seem to also be ignoring Trouts strike out numbers as well. 139k's in 556 plate appearances isn't exactly great is it.


No, its not great. This is one of the factors that makes Cabrera the better hitter this year.

Quote:
Ahoda posted a very good article from a sabre metrics dude and he certainly recognizes the accomplishments of Cabrerra.


Miguel has had an awesome year, I wont deny that.

Quote:
As for team accomplishment it wouldn't have mattered if Trout played this year. His team isn't in the playoff's. The same cant be said for Cabrera. Had he not played the Tigers wouldn't be in the post season.


The Angels had the better record. Are we discounting Trout's value because he plays in a superior division?

Quote:
So I strongly disagree with your position but I could respect it if you were consistent in discounting both players team mates and didnt simply dismiss Cabrera's achievements suggesting they don't matter in the MVP discussion.
Batting average, power numbers, home runs, RBI's, Slugging % are all important numbers. It just seems any stat where Cabrera is ahead of Trout you conveniently suggest those stats aren't as important.


Ive mentioned many times that Cabrera has been better at the plate. Im not discounting his stats at all. Hes had a great year at the plate, but so has Trout, though not to the extent of Miguel. However, Trout adds so much value with his amazing defense and ability on the basepads.

I havent suggested any stats arent important. Im saying winning the Triple Crown shouldnt be an argument that Cabby should win the MVP. Because with that logic, if Adam Dunn or Josh Hamilton happens to run into a few today, the suddenly his season becomes less valuable? No. Im looking at two players statistics on the three aspects of the game. Hitting, Baserunning, Defense. Hitting is obviously the most important, but we cant throw away defense and baserunning.

Also, Mike Trout is having a historical season more rare then Cabrera's. 30 HR/45 SB cannot be discounted at all. Hell, he's one away from 30/50. I think thats happened like two times before. And thats a stat that doesnt reference what other players have done this year.

Lastly, consider total bases. Miguel has 377, Trout has 312. This does not include stolen bases. Trout is 65 behind, playing less games, and has stolen 49 bases. That is damn impressive.

So Cabrera wins the better hitter title. No question. But Trout doesnt just win on defense and base-running, he blows Cabrera away.


To sum up, IMO, Trout has been the better all-around baseball player this year, and therefor, IMO, deserves MVP. No Sabermetrics here.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.
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SadLionFan00


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.


I will argue that the Angels would be worse off without Trout than the Tigers would be without Cabrera. Just because Trout's team plays in a better division doesnt make him any less valuable to his team. If the Angels somehow were in the AL Central, they would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would not.
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nagahide13


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm completely on SLF's side here. I think Cabby will win it, and I hope he does since he's, you know... on my favorite team. But Trout should win it.

Sabers are extremely important. I just don't think they're everything. People saying "archaic" stats are completely irrelevant are sort of supporting a ludicrous position to me, but sabers give a much better idea of stats within a vacuum. (The problem with that is that the "vacuum" I'm talking about doesn't exist, and is in fact impossible.) Stats like RBI and HR should matter, (archaic). Some things aren't particularly quantifiable, but are still relevant, (eyeball).

Triple crown shouldn't matter. Trout's age shouldn't matter. In terms of MVP voting, who cares what players that aren't in the MVP race did (hence throwing a wrench in the triple crown argument). In terms of MVP voting, who cares how old the player in question is. It's a nice little side note, and it says a lot about Trout that he's doing it this young... but it has no bearing on the MVP whatsoever.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.


I will argue that the Angels would be worse off without Trout than the Tigers would be without Cabrera. Just because Trout's team plays in a better division doesnt make him any less valuable to his team. If the Angels somehow were in the AL Central, they would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would not.

The Angels did NOTHING. And as Naga pointed out, in a vaccum, that means the Angels players, all of them, had no value to their team. NONE. They could have been far worse off without Trout because they could not have missed the regular season. They couldn't be any worse off. Without Cabby, the Tigers undoubtedly miss the playoffs.
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stylish313


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.


I will argue that the Angels would be worse off without Trout than the Tigers would be without Cabrera. Just because Trout's team plays in a better division doesnt make him any less valuable to his team. If the Angels somehow were in the AL Central, they would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would not.
I respect the hell out of what Trout accomplished, and I do believe that he was the better baseball player- and probably by a lot.

But I honestly believe Miggy was the more VALUABLE player. The Tiger's won this season because of his effectiveness at the plate, and their starting pitching. Our defense was mediocre at best, and we had to be one of the most inconsistent teams at the plate outside of Cabrera and Prince. He was the most clutch player in MLB, and a triple crown champion. The Tiger's needed every ounce of Cabby's offensive power to win this season.
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X_Factor_40


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.


I will argue that the Angels would be worse off without Trout than the Tigers would be without Cabrera. Just because Trout's team plays in a better division doesnt make him any less valuable to his team. If the Angels somehow were in the AL Central, they would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would not.


Take Cabrera off the Tigers and watch the team fall into a black hole.
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SadLionFan00


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.


I will argue that the Angels would be worse off without Trout than the Tigers would be without Cabrera. Just because Trout's team plays in a better division doesnt make him any less valuable to his team. If the Angels somehow were in the AL Central, they would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would not.

The Angels did NOTHING. And as Naga pointed out, in a vaccum, that means the Angels players, all of them, had no value to their team. NONE. They could have been far worse off without Trout because they could not have missed the regular season. They couldn't be any worse off. Without Cabby, the Tigers undoubtedly miss the playoffs.


You are basically saying that Trout should not win the MVP because the As and Rangers were really good this year.

C'mon. Its a regular season award. Making the post-season does not determine a player's value. The Angels were the better team this year, and Trout was the best player.
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SadLionFan00


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X_Factor_40 wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.


I will argue that the Angels would be worse off without Trout than the Tigers would be without Cabrera. Just because Trout's team plays in a better division doesnt make him any less valuable to his team. If the Angels somehow were in the AL Central, they would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would not.


Take Cabrera off the Tigers and watch the team fall into a black hole.


Take Trout off the Angels and you can say the same thing.
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Silver&Black88 wrote:
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Trestman is a great coach but Cutler is already a pouty overconfident poo flinger. What more can he do with him?
Get him to fling poo more accurately and make better decisions when flinging it?
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SadLionFan00


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.


I will argue that the Angels would be worse off without Trout than the Tigers would be without Cabrera. Just because Trout's team plays in a better division doesnt make him any less valuable to his team. If the Angels somehow were in the AL Central, they would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would not.
I respect the hell out of what Trout accomplished, and I do believe that he was the better baseball player- and probably by a lot.

But I honestly believe Miggy was the more VALUABLE player. The Tiger's won this season because of his effectiveness at the plate, and their starting pitching. Our defense was mediocre at best, and we had to be one of the most inconsistent teams at the plate outside of Cabrera and Prince. He was the most clutch player in MLB, and a triple crown champion. The Tiger's needed every ounce of Cabby's offensive power to win this season.


The Angels needed every ounce of Trout's effort in all aspects this season to get where they got. No, they didnt make the playoffs, but they were the better team than the Tigers. They played in the best division in baseball, Detroit played in the weakest.
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Silver&Black88 wrote:
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Trestman is a great coach but Cutler is already a pouty overconfident poo flinger. What more can he do with him?
Get him to fling poo more accurately and make better decisions when flinging it?
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.


I will argue that the Angels would be worse off without Trout than the Tigers would be without Cabrera. Just because Trout's team plays in a better division doesnt make him any less valuable to his team. If the Angels somehow were in the AL Central, they would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would not.

The Angels did NOTHING. And as Naga pointed out, in a vaccum, that means the Angels players, all of them, had no value to their team. NONE. They could have been far worse off without Trout because they could not have missed the regular season. They couldn't be any worse off. Without Cabby, the Tigers undoubtedly miss the playoffs.


You are basically saying that Trout should not win the MVP because the As and Rangers were really good this year.

C'mon. Its a regular season award. Making the post-season does not determine a player's value. The Angels were the better team this year, and Trout was the best player.

Trout has something like 60 less total bases than Cabby, and Trout hits leadoff where Total bases is easiest to get. His 40+SBs still left him lacking. And in the last 6 weeks, when his team needed him most, he hit ~.260 and his team missed the playoffs. Trout had 15 lead-taking hits to Cabby's 30.

There is a strong case to be made that Cabby was the best player, but I definitely see no case where Trout was more valuable.

It is easy to point out that Cabby could have easily hit more lead-taking hits and been even better if he needed to be because his team was chasing TEX and OAK. No, Trout does not get knocked for being in that division, he gets knocked for being less valuable and not doing what it took to get the division lead....like Cabby did.

Trout had Cabby by .035 in avg 6 weeks ago. He is now behind Cabby, what does that tell you about where each player was when their team needed them?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
To me Best player is the MVP

And therein lies your problem. If you want to discuss the BPA(best player award), then discuss whoever you want. But this is the most VALUABLE player award. And Miggy was more important by far to his team. There is a case to be made that Trout had NO value since his team didn't even make the playoffs and that is where a players' value lies, since that is the ultimate goal.


I will argue that the Angels would be worse off without Trout than the Tigers would be without Cabrera. Just because Trout's team plays in a better division doesnt make him any less valuable to his team. If the Angels somehow were in the AL Central, they would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would not.


Disagree. Peter Bourjos would step in and the Angels wouldnt miss a beat on defense and base running. Yeah, he wont get the high average that Trout gets but Bourjos is just as good as a baserunner and just as good of a defender.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since sabremetrics takes a lot of speculation and judgement into account, why dont we do the same for Miggy. Miggy is so valuable in that he is able to play at an above average level, two positions (anyone saying he is an awful 3B needs to watch him play). The fact he was able to do that, allowed us to sign Prince Fielder, who said he wouldnt sign if he were a DH. So, Miggy should get credit for Prince's stats too.

I like Sabremetrices as a different way to look at things, and it gives a different perspective. And I get when signing players to contracts, you dont simply look at the traditional stats to evaluate these guys. but when comparing them to each other, all stats should be taken into consideration. In traditional stats, Miggy dominates every stat except triples and steals. In Sabre stats, Miggy is not far off if you take out defensive Sabre's which are about as conclusive as my argument about getting credit for Prince's stats.
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