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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darren McFadden is fifty times the back that Moreno is. If he doesn't get hurt routinely, you're talking one of the best backs in the league. The difference between these two is that McFadden produces when he's healthy, Moreno doesn't.

I was a huge Moreno fan, and most around here will attest to that, but dude is trash. He hasn't done anything in camp to warrant making this team. You can hate Lance Ball, Jeremiah Johnson, or whoever, but both of these guys, Ronnie Hillman, and Willis McGahee are the ones who deserve their spot on the team.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
I was a huge Moreno fan, and most around here will attest to that, but dude is trash. He hasn't done anything in camp to warrant making this team. You can hate Lance Ball, Jeremiah Johnson, or whoever, but both of these guys, Ronnie Hillman, and Willis McGahee are the ones who deserve their spot on the team.

I agree entirely.

And, to be perfectly honest, I get the feeling that Knowshon is ready for a change of scenery himself. I just don't think he wants to be here. The Pats don't have a great deal of depth at RB, perhaps after we cut him he can join Mac, Lloyd and Gaffney in New England.
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rhuston


Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bronco 67

I am not trying to defend Moreno in anyway shape or form but please tell me how McFadden is fifty times better when he doesn't have the stats to prove it. I will give you that McFadden has the "potential" to be better but has yet to prove it. Just when he gets rolling he seems to get hurt all the time.

All I am saying is right now, DF, from a production standpoint, was not really any better in his first three years than Moreno was. He scored less touchdowns, fumbled more, rushed for 100 more yards while playing in two more games. From a Potential standpoint, I get it. I was just pointing out to BP that when his team has players like McClain and McFadden maybe he shouldn't be hacking on guys like Moreno and Dumerville.

I could use the "if" excuse with KM but will refrain from doing so.

I really hope Hillman is the real deal but I am already scared that his size is going to make him a constant gametime decision player. I hope I am wrong though.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rhuston wrote:
AKRNA

I did not say in his third year. I said over their first three years! McFadden had 2,000 while Moreno had 1,900 yards. Moreno had more touchdowns and While Mcfadden had a better yards per carry. That seems pretty similiar to me. McFadden Had one good year out of four. Moreno also had a year in which he produced over 1,200 yard of total offense.

BP

You can say all you want about looking the part, but DF's stats are what they are, pretty average at best. I would say the only thing he has on Moreno is speed. He runs to upright, is hurt all the time, and at times dances in the backfield always looking for the homerun. I know Moreno has the label as a fumbler, but DF actually had five more fumbles than Moreno did in years 1-3.

I find it odd you spend so much time finding fault in Moreno's game yet say your guy is a top 3 RB at this point in his career.

I am not saying Moreno is great by any means but when you live in a glass house.......


Can't believe I'm validating this with a response to be honest.

Not sure where you are getting your stats. Year 3, DMAC had over 1600 all purpose yards. A 5.2 average on the ground. But McFadden is largely a better back. His 3rd year was fantastic except the 3 games he missed.

Not sure where you are getting your stats. But McFadden is largely a better back. His 3rd year was fantastic except the 3 games he missed.

McFadden rarely dances. His initial burst is insane. He gets north and south in a hurry and delivers hits on defenders. Always moves the pile.

Moreno has shown zero ability in the NFL.

I strongly suggest you watch DMAC play. Perhaps you've been asleep while he's played owned your team the last couple years.
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Mr.MileHigh


Joined: 18 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
rhuston wrote:
AKRNA

I did not say in his third year. I said over their first three years! McFadden had 2,000 while Moreno had 1,900 yards. Moreno had more touchdowns and While Mcfadden had a better yards per carry. That seems pretty similiar to me. McFadden Had one good year out of four. Moreno also had a year in which he produced over 1,200 yard of total offense.

BP

You can say all you want about looking the part, but DF's stats are what they are, pretty average at best. I would say the only thing he has on Moreno is speed. He runs to upright, is hurt all the time, and at times dances in the backfield always looking for the homerun. I know Moreno has the label as a fumbler, but DF actually had five more fumbles than Moreno did in years 1-3.

I find it odd you spend so much time finding fault in Moreno's game yet say your guy is a top 3 RB at this point in his career.

I am not saying Moreno is great by any means but when you live in a glass house.......


Can't believe I'm validating this with a response to be honest.

Not sure where you are getting your stats. Year 3, DMAC had over 1600 all purpose yards. A 5.2 average on the ground. But McFadden is largely a better back. His 3rd year was fantastic except the 3 games he missed.

Not sure where you are getting your stats. But McFadden is largely a better back. His 3rd year was fantastic except the 3 games he missed.

McFadden rarely dances. His initial burst is insane. He gets north and south in a hurry and delivers hits on defenders. Always moves the pile.

Moreno has shown zero ability in the NFL.

I strongly suggest you watch DMAC play. Perhaps you've been asleep while he's played owned your team the last couple years.


First, Knowshow has displayed 1 and only 1 game where he played well. Second, BP DMac is good but would rather have Bush. Why was DMac injured last year ankle then turf tow, sprained ankle? Nobody knew why? Bush was consistent and toughest out every injury. Oh and he ran over us because our D sucked let's see this year if he isn't hurt week 1
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.MileHigh wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
rhuston wrote:
AKRNA

I did not say in his third year. I said over their first three years! McFadden had 2,000 while Moreno had 1,900 yards. Moreno had more touchdowns and While Mcfadden had a better yards per carry. That seems pretty similiar to me. McFadden Had one good year out of four. Moreno also had a year in which he produced over 1,200 yard of total offense.

BP

You can say all you want about looking the part, but DF's stats are what they are, pretty average at best. I would say the only thing he has on Moreno is speed. He runs to upright, is hurt all the time, and at times dances in the backfield always looking for the homerun. I know Moreno has the label as a fumbler, but DF actually had five more fumbles than Moreno did in years 1-3.

I find it odd you spend so much time finding fault in Moreno's game yet say your guy is a top 3 RB at this point in his career.

I am not saying Moreno is great by any means but when you live in a glass house.......


Can't believe I'm validating this with a response to be honest.

Not sure where you are getting your stats. Year 3, DMAC had over 1600 all purpose yards. A 5.2 average on the ground. But McFadden is largely a better back. His 3rd year was fantastic except the 3 games he missed.

Not sure where you are getting your stats. But McFadden is largely a better back. His 3rd year was fantastic except the 3 games he missed.

McFadden rarely dances. His initial burst is insane. He gets north and south in a hurry and delivers hits on defenders. Always moves the pile.

Moreno has shown zero ability in the NFL.

I strongly suggest you watch DMAC play. Perhaps you've been asleep while he's played owned your team the last couple years.


First, Knowshow has displayed 1 and only 1 game where he played well. Second, BP DMac is good but would rather have Bush. Why was DMac injured last year ankle then turf tow, sprained ankle? Nobody knew why? Bush was consistent and toughest out every injury. Oh and he ran over us because our D sucked let's see this year if he isn't hurt week 1


Sprained foot. Similar to Shaubs injury. Hue Jackson for whatever reason continued to toy with everyone on his injury. Never understood why.

Bush is a good back. He wore down easily. Had the 1 great game against SD and other wise was underwhelming. Bush also was always on the coaches bad side for conditioning. Regardless, Bush isn't on the same level as DMAC. DMAC is a true difference maker when healthy. He just has to stay that way. When he's on, his is tough to stop.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rhuston wrote:
BP

I think your right, Moreno has been a bust to this point. His numbers are scary similiar to Darren McFadden over the first three years of their careers. Considering where DM was picked, wouldn't you consider him an even bigger bust at this point in his careers, than Moreno? Just wondering if you are applying the same criteria to McFader that you are applying to Moreno.


2013 yards on the ground at 4.6 YPC and 1037 yards catching with 15 total touchdowns compared with 1,905 yards at 4.1 and 686 yards catching with 18 total touchdowns.

Those numbers really aren't very similar, DMC is more productive in far fewer touches. Add in the fact DMC had 3 fumbles compared to Moreno's 8.
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Allen said he would play the hot hand, in what world is McFadden's hand hot?

He touched Dennis Allen's seat before the game.
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rhuston


Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, sorrry I took awhile but I had to get my boots on before responding.

First off, I got all of my information from espn.com and I encourage people to double check as I admit I am no math major. That being said, I have given my best effort of breaking down stats.

91jmay, I double checked espn sites and if they are correct you definitely fumbled the fumble stat you presented and would argue that the other stats are pretty similiar when you consider McFadden has played one more year than Knowshon.

Bp, I used ESPN for all of my stats. I tried to add as well as I can.

I would like to reiterate my earlier post saying that I am in no way shape or form trying to defend Moreno but only pointing out that if your going to trash Moreno, you should refrain from saying that DF is a top three back when he has only been good one out of four years.

Here are the stats

DF 4 years, 954 yps (rush/rec.), 3.2 fum, 5td, 4.8 ypc.

KM 3 years, 863 yps (rush/rec), 2.6 fum, 6td, 4.1 ypc.

So BP is that what separates trash from elite?

Please note that these are career stats broken down per year.

Now I would take a look at this from a financial standpoint.

Contracts:

DF 6yr 60 mil 26 guarenteed.

KM 5yr 16.6 mil 13 guarenteed.

So who has had more bang for their buck?

BP if you can humble yourself enough to respond I would be happy to debate this further.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rhuston wrote:
Wow, sorrry I took awhile but I had to get my boots on before responding.

First off, I got all of my information from espn.com and I encourage people to double check as I admit I am no math major. That being said, I have given my best effort of breaking down stats.

91jmay, I double checked espn sites and if they are correct you definitely fumbled the fumble stat you presented and would argue that the other stats are pretty similiar when you consider McFadden has played one more year than Knowshon.

Bp, I used ESPN for all of my stats. I tried to add as well as I can.

I would like to reiterate my earlier post saying that I am in no way shape or form trying to defend Moreno but only pointing out that if your going to trash Moreno, you should refrain from saying that DF is a top three back when he has only been good one out of four years.

Here are the stats

DF 4 years, 954 yps (rush/rec.), 3.2 fum, 5td, 4.8 ypc.

KM 3 years, 863 yps (rush/rec), 2.6 fum, 6td, 4.1 ypc.

So BP is that what separates trash from elite?

Please note that these are career stats broken down per year.

Now I would take a look at this from a financial standpoint.

Contracts:

DF 6yr 60 mil 26 guarenteed.

KM 5yr 16.6 mil 13 guarenteed.

So who has had more bang for their buck?

BP if you can humble yourself enough to respond I would be happy to debate this further.


I don't think I need to humble myself. It's an obvious answer. Your stats are wrong and your fan base also doesn't support your argument comparing Moreno and McFadden on any level.

And you seem to be average 4 years of stats for McFadden against 3 years for Moreno? Don't understand that.

Bottom line is, the NFL is about 'what have you done for me lately'. McFadden has progressed into one of the fiercest RBs in the game. Using his Jamarcus Russell/Bruce Gradkowski era stats from his first 2 seasons has no relevance on the player or team he plays on now.
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rhuston


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BP

That is how averaging works. You take the total stats and divide by the number of years in the league. Obviously I would divide by 4 for DF because he has been in the league for four years. On the other hand KM Has only been in the league three years so I added all his stats and divided by three.

How are my stats wrong?

I don't need a fan base to support me.

Again, I am not defending KM's production at all. I am actually using his "trash" numbers to point out DF hasn't exactly lit the league on fire either.

Next year he may run for 2,000 yards but at this point in his career he has not shown that he can stay healthy for entire season. Who knows, maybe this year will be different. I hear they are really gushing over him at camp so far.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rhuston wrote:
BP

That is how averaging works. You take the total stats and divide by the number of years in the league. Obviously I would divide by 4 for DF because he has been in the league for four years. On the other hand KM Has only been in the league three years so I added all his stats and divided by three.

How are my stats wrong?

I don't need a fan base to support me.

Again, I am not defending KM's production at all. I am actually using his "trash" numbers to point out DF hasn't exactly lit the league on fire either.

Next year he may run for 2,000 yards but at this point in his career he has not shown that he can stay healthy for entire season. Who knows, maybe this year will be different. I hear they are really gushing over him at camp so far.


Maybe your stats aren't wrong, but they are misrepresentative of both players. I'm looking at stats of both and what stands out to me is not the totals, but the jump D-Mac made in his 3rd year as opposed to the back seat Moreno had to take. One player stepped up and statistacally went nuts, while another dropped off and statistacally took a dive.

Not surprising, D-Mac began his 4th season where he left off his 3rd, being dominant. YPC went up and fumbles went down.

Anyway, no sense in me discussing this further. I'm lost as to what you're trying to prove.
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broncosfan07


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McFadden is far superior but I hate him for being such a disappointment to my fantasy team last season.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the thing rhuston, those DMC stats where his first 3 years in the league as that is the original comparison you made. You are quite correct I did mess up the fumble stat Embarassed , i looked at receiving TDs, however I will do some ACTUAL averaging (you know, done in a way that makes statistical sense) to give the correct picture.

To be blunt your averaging is quite simply the dumbest way of doing it I have ever seen. A MUCH better way is to do fumbles per rushing attempt, as this gives us a clear picture of who fumbles the ball more when they have it in there hands.

Moreno has 542 touches and 8 fumbles. This works out at 67 touches per fumble.

DMac has 669 touches and 13 fumbles. This works out at 51 touches per fumble.

Clearly DMac fumbles more, although you will note that he reduced that problem this past season only fumbling once on 130 touches.

Moreno averages 4.1 YPC on his career, McFadden 4.8 YPC. That is a substantial gulf. Moreno averages 9.0 yards per catch, compared to McFaddens 10.3 yards per catch. A not insignificant increase, considering McFadden has caught 35 more balls than Moreno.

Whilst McFadden still has plenty to prove healthwise - this is a more than legitimate criticism and still makes him not worth his draft selection - to question his ability on the field is asine - especially considering his improvement over the past two seasons.
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Silver&Black88 wrote:
smokey1212 wrote:

Allen said he would play the hot hand, in what world is McFadden's hand hot?

He touched Dennis Allen's seat before the game.
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kansas bob


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Here is the thing rhuston, those DMC stats where his first 3 years in the league as that is the original comparison you made. You are quite correct I did mess up the fumble stat Embarassed , i looked at receiving TDs, however I will do some ACTUAL averaging (you know, done in a way that makes statistical sense) to give the correct picture.

To be blunt your averaging is quite simply the dumbest way of doing it I have ever seen. A MUCH better way is to do fumbles per rushing attempt, as this gives us a clear picture of who fumbles the ball more when they have it in there hands.

Moreno has 542 touches and 8 fumbles. This works out at 67 touches per fumble.

DMac has 669 touches and 13 fumbles. This works out at 51 touches per fumble.

Clearly DMac fumbles more, although you will note that he reduced that problem this past season only fumbling once on 130 touches.

Moreno averages 4.1 YPC on his career, McFadden 4.8 YPC. That is a substantial gulf. Moreno averages 9.0 yards per catch, compared to McFaddens 10.3 yards per catch. A not insignificant increase, considering McFadden has caught 35 more balls than Moreno.

Whilst McFadden still has plenty to prove healthwise - this is a more than legitimate criticism and still makes him not worth his draft selection - to question his ability on the field is asine - especially considering his improvement over the past two seasons.

On an earlier post some idiot said McFadden was 50 times better back than Moreno and AAA "totally agree entirely" with with you. These stats above doesn't seem like 50 times better to me? Actually with the press they both came out of college with, I think both are rather disappointing! I believe DMac was drafted several spots higher than Moreno was.
Denver has been hit severely by injury the last few years, not sure why but Moreno has been hit harder than most.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kansas bob wrote:
91jmay wrote:
Here is the thing rhuston, those DMC stats where his first 3 years in the league as that is the original comparison you made. You are quite correct I did mess up the fumble stat Embarassed , i looked at receiving TDs, however I will do some ACTUAL averaging (you know, done in a way that makes statistical sense) to give the correct picture.

To be blunt your averaging is quite simply the dumbest way of doing it I have ever seen. A MUCH better way is to do fumbles per rushing attempt, as this gives us a clear picture of who fumbles the ball more when they have it in there hands.

Moreno has 542 touches and 8 fumbles. This works out at 67 touches per fumble.

DMac has 669 touches and 13 fumbles. This works out at 51 touches per fumble.

Clearly DMac fumbles more, although you will note that he reduced that problem this past season only fumbling once on 130 touches.

Moreno averages 4.1 YPC on his career, McFadden 4.8 YPC. That is a substantial gulf. Moreno averages 9.0 yards per catch, compared to McFaddens 10.3 yards per catch. A not insignificant increase, considering McFadden has caught 35 more balls than Moreno.

Whilst McFadden still has plenty to prove healthwise - this is a more than legitimate criticism and still makes him not worth his draft selection - to question his ability on the field is asine - especially considering his improvement over the past two seasons.

On an earlier post some idiot said McFadden was 50 times better back than Moreno and AAA "totally agree entirely" with with you. These stats above doesn't seem like 50 times better to me? Actually with the press they both came out of college with, I think both are rather disappointing! I believe DMac was drafted several spots higher than Moreno was.
Denver has been hit severely by injury the last few years, not sure why but Moreno has been hit harder than most.


Idiot huh? Nice. Well, that idiot was me, and guess what, I stand by it. Anyone trying to argue Knowshon Moreno and Darren McFadden are even close as players blows my mind.

Stats are nice, but don't tell the whole story. Some of the Raiders teams with McFadden had such awful offensive lines, worse than ours recently. McFadden made a big jump in his 3rd year. He's a more dynamic player with the ball in his hands, he's faster and more elusive than Moreno. Both of them get hit by the injury bug a lot. Even using the eye test, you can see that Moreno pales in comparison to McFadden.

I'm not gonna keep debating this. Knowshon isn't going to be playing past this season. He's a below average player.
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