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Does the Detroit Lions Maturity Problem Start With Our Coach
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nagahide13


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 11083
Location: Stumptown
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
I come in peace

I think the argument that makes sense is that immaturity is the root of all of the problems, that the Lions are having.

Yeah, you lost to the Saints in the playoffs, but you were a win away from not having to play them in the first round. Having Suh, in that Saints game he got suspended for might have been the difference. There might have been a game in the season where you would have won if not for stupid penalties. You can certainly admit that there were many idiotic penalties committed during the year.

Same deal with the off the field stuff. None of the crimes committed have been malicious. They're idiotic. Sure, they endanger people but their not doing sadistic things. That doesn't make it okay because they're still risking the lives of others but saying that these are "bad guys" can't be said with certainty.

Immature and stupid, yes. Bad/evil, no


I agree completely. I just don't think the off-field problems stem from the "example" Schwartz is setting. The problem is that these kids are acting like stupid, immature kids. The on-field stuff can be attributed more directly to the coaching staff, because part of their job is to reign these things in... But when a kid is halfway across the country, it becomes more of a personal issue with the players themselves. They're responsible for their own behaviors.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 6298
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagahide13 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
I come in peace

I think the argument that makes sense is that immaturity is the root of all of the problems, that the Lions are having.

Yeah, you lost to the Saints in the playoffs, but you were a win away from not having to play them in the first round. Having Suh, in that Saints game he got suspended for might have been the difference. There might have been a game in the season where you would have won if not for stupid penalties. You can certainly admit that there were many idiotic penalties committed during the year.

Same deal with the off the field stuff. None of the crimes committed have been malicious. They're idiotic. Sure, they endanger people but their not doing sadistic things. That doesn't make it okay because they're still risking the lives of others but saying that these are "bad guys" can't be said with certainty.

Immature and stupid, yes. Bad/evil, no


I agree completely. I just don't think the off-field problems stem from the "example" Schwartz is setting. The problem is that these kids are acting like stupid, immature kids. The on-field stuff can be attributed more directly to the coaching staff, because part of their job is to reign these things in... But when a kid is halfway across the country, it becomes more of a personal issue with the players themselves. They're responsible for their own behaviors.


Yep, if anybody in the organization is to be blamed other than the players, it should be Mayhew.

Not going to blast the guy for Berry or Culbreath. Frankly if you're not bringing in talented but troubled guys as UDFA's you're not doing your job as GM. If they get it together you pulled in a nice piece. TT does the same thing. It's what happened with Walden, and Underwood and Jolly were both 6th rounders. If those guys bomb who cares, it's not like you have anything invested in them. They get cut and you move on.

The issue is the high rounders, the guys like Fairley and Leshoure who you're too invested in to punish severely.
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cpnesdude41


Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 1556
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

X_Factor_40 wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Character always trumps talent.


Really?

Mike Vick, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Ray Lewis, and Adrian Peterson among others would argue against that. Unless of course they don't count because they had character problems on other teams that aren't the Lions. Vick torturing defenseless animals, Lewis and a murder, Peterson roughing up off duty cops, and Moss and Owens being idiots pretty much all day every day.


well LOL at those to "examples.." vick missing years of football, that sure didnt affect his team .. and TO, im pretty sure at one point people referred to him as the equivalent to cancer.. I dont enough enough about the others issues to comment. Rolling Eyes
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cpnesdude41


Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 1556
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
nagahide13 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
I come in peace

I think the argument that makes sense is that immaturity is the root of all of the problems, that the Lions are having.

Yeah, you lost to the Saints in the playoffs, but you were a win away from not having to play them in the first round. Having Suh, in that Saints game he got suspended for might have been the difference. There might have been a game in the season where you would have won if not for stupid penalties. You can certainly admit that there were many idiotic penalties committed during the year.

Same deal with the off the field stuff. None of the crimes committed have been malicious. They're idiotic. Sure, they endanger people but their not doing sadistic things. That doesn't make it okay because they're still risking the lives of others but saying that these are "bad guys" can't be said with certainty.

Immature and stupid, yes. Bad/evil, no


I agree completely. I just don't think the off-field problems stem from the "example" Schwartz is setting. The problem is that these kids are acting like stupid, immature kids. The on-field stuff can be attributed more directly to the coaching staff, because part of their job is to reign these things in... But when a kid is halfway across the country, it becomes more of a personal issue with the players themselves. They're responsible for their own behaviors.


Yep, if anybody in the organization is to be blamed other than the players, it should be Mayhew.

Not going to blast the guy for Berry or Culbreath. Frankly if you're not bringing in talented but troubled guys as UDFA's you're not doing your job as GM. If they get it together you pulled in a nice piece. TT does the same thing. It's what happened with Walden, and Underwood and Jolly were both 6th rounders. If those guys bomb who cares, it's not like you have anything invested in them. They get cut and you move on.

The issue is the high rounders, the guys like Fairley and Leshoure who you're too invested in to punish severely.


Thats what i've been trying to say, but you def put it better than I.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25615
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cpnesdude41 wrote:
X_Factor_40 wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Character always trumps talent.


Really?

Mike Vick, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Ray Lewis, and Adrian Peterson among others would argue against that. Unless of course they don't count because they had character problems on other teams that aren't the Lions. Vick torturing defenseless animals, Lewis and a murder, Peterson roughing up off duty cops, and Moss and Owens being idiots pretty much all day every day.


well LOL at those to "examples.." vick missing years of football, that sure didnt affect his team .. and TO, im pretty sure at one point people referred to
him as the equivalent to cancer.. I dont enough enough about the others issues to comment. Rolling Eyes


It certainly destroys your character trumps talent argument.

Sports, politics, the church, business are filled with high performing individuals that are a huge value to their organizations but have serious character issues.

As I sad in a previous post your perceptions are limited if you truly believe everything you've written on the subject.
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DavidatMIZZOU


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just coming back to give props to Detroit for cutting Berry. It is the right move.
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My god it must be so terrible to have three teams that consistently make the playoffs
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calvin81mixes


Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Posts: 166
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no it's not our coaches fault at all. How can it be schwartz's fault that we have loads of immature kids off the field?
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nagahide13


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just heard Damien Woody say it in a way that I think is fantastic...

Quote:
Your talent is your floor, but your character is your ceiling.

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Go_LiOnS


Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 2229
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagahide13 wrote:
Just heard Damien Woody say it in a way that I think is fantastic...

Quote:
Your talent is your floor, but your character is your ceiling.
that is a good way to put it
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TL-TwoWinsAway


Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 25782
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin81mixes wrote:
no it's not our coaches fault at all. How can it be schwartz's fault that we have loads of immature kids off the field?

Well, "loads" is a bit of a stretch.

When it comes to leadership, there are some that believe the leader is responsible for the actions of those under his leadership. Schwartz isn't the one making dumb decisions, but an incentive has to be put in place to prevent them from happening repeatedly. There was one, as Berry was cut, so I have no complaints.

If problems continue, the punishments need to increase in severity. (Example: cutting a player, pushing to re-sign that player, then cutting them again. That, or taking family members hostage.) You need to send a message.
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