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Does the Detroit Lions Maturity Problem Start With Our Coach
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 57792
Location: Omaha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polaris wrote:
Character always trumps talent.

When it's the 4th quarter on a freezing December day, and you're hurt, and tired, and beat up, and cold, and the refs are screwing you and the crowd is all against you, it isn't talent that will make the difference, it's the character. The character to perservere in the face of adversity.

Hand in hand with character is discipline. Self-discipline. I have never seen anybody excel in sports, business, academics or anything else if they weren't self-disciplined.

The Lions have been a bad team for a long time but they have a lot of talented players now and there's reason for optimism. But the challenge for the organization now is going to be to get the coaches and players to buy into the entire concept of acting like a champion on AND OFF the field.

If they can achieve that, Detroit will be one of the league's best teams; if they cannot, then all the talent in the world isn't going to change things.


4 players arrested during GB SB run states this stance is not accurate.


Quote:
11/25/2011

Green Bay

LB

Erik Walden

Arrested on suspicion of assaulting live-in girlfriend.





10/1/2011

Green Bay

DL

Johnny Jolly

Arrested after traffic stop, charged with possession of a compound containing codeine and tampering with evidence.





6/16/2011

Green Bay

CB

Brandon Underwood

Police called to his house in domestic incident. He was charged with misdemeanor disorderly conduct after allegedly ripping necklace off of his wife's neck.





3/25/2011

Green Bay

DE

Johnny Jolly

Arrested in Houston after traffic stop, charged with possession of codeine with intent to distribute.

He pleaded guilty to one codeine possession charge from 2008. Sentenced to a drug treatment program and five years of deferred adjudication.



6/10/2010

Green Bay

CB

Brandon Underwood

Two women claimed they were sexually assaulted in Lake Dalton, Wis., leading to charge.

Pleaded no contest to prostitution-nonmarital sexual intercourse, $379 fine.



3/13/2010

Green Bay

TE

Spencer Havner

Arrested in California on suspicion of DUI after motorcycle accident around 2:45 a.m.

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Last edited by detfan782004 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stylish313


Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 14603
Location: Flat Rock, Mi
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polaris wrote:
Character always trumps talent.

When it's the 4th quarter on a freezing December day, and you're hurt, and tired, and beat up, and cold, and the refs are screwing you and the crowd is all against you, it isn't talent that will make the difference, it's the character. The character to perservere in the face of adversity.

Hand in hand with character is discipline. Self-discipline. I have never seen anybody excel in sports, business, academics or anything else if they weren't self-disciplined.

The Lions have been a bad team for a long time but they have a lot of talented players now and there's reason for optimism. But the challenge for the organization now is going to be to get the coaches and players to buy into the entire concept of acting like a champion on AND OFF the field.

If they can achieve that, Detroit will be one of the league's best teams; if they cannot, then all the talent in the world isn't going to change things.
Good thing none of these idiots weren't much of a factor in our playoff run last season then, huh?
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nagahide13


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polaris wrote:
Character always trumps talent.


No it doesn't. If it did, Tim Tebow would be a good QB.

Character + talent trumps talent alone, that's for sure.
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Polaris


Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 3550
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagahide13 wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Character always trumps talent.


No it doesn't. If it did, Tim Tebow would be a good QB.

Character + talent trumps talent alone, that's for sure.


Tebow won the Heisman trophy in college. Was he the most talented QB in the NCAA? Last year, he took the helm of a Denver team that was doing nothing under Orton and ran off a string of wins. Was he more talented than Orton?

A QBs job is to lead the offense on the field. Bad people make bad leaders. I could name an NFL QB right now who has all the talent in the world but doesn't win because he's a bad guy. For those of you who are older, does the name Jeff George ring a bell? #1 overall pick, great skills, but not a guy who was ever going to lead anybody anywhere.

I've been on teams, in the military, and a HS coach for most of my adult life. In my experience, a less talented guy with more character is a bigger asset to the team. It's a long season, and there's going to be some rough spots along the way, and you'd better have something to fall back on besides talent.
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nagahide13


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polaris wrote:

Tebow won the Heisman trophy in college. Was he the most talented QB in the NCAA? Last year, he took the helm of a Denver team that was doing nothing under Orton and ran off a string of wins. Was he more talented than Orton?


No, but he was the most talented football player at the QB position. Now he isn't.

Quote:
A QBs job is to lead the offense on the field. Bad people make bad leaders.


History would beg to differ. Bad leaders make bad leaders. Being a bad person has nothing to do with it if they actually have leadership ability. I don't think I should have to name names, but think of the Axis.

Quote:
I could name an NFL QB right now who has all the talent in the world but doesn't win because he's a bad guy. For those of you who are older, does the name Jeff George ring a bell? #1 overall pick, great skills, but not a guy who was ever going to lead anybody anywhere.


I could name an NFL QB that wins right now who is a bad person as well.

Quote:
I've been on teams, in the military, and a HS coach for most of my adult life. In my experience, a less talented guy with more character is a bigger asset to the team. It's a long season, and there's going to be some rough spots along the way, and you'd better have something to fall back on besides talent.


You're talking about something completely different. You're talking about someone that doesn't have the ability to buy into the team mentality, which is completely different than character... Or even whether a person is at heart decent or horrible.

Bad people can have drive too. Bad people can understand that playing as a team is going to get you further than playing as an individual. What you're talking about isn't goodness or character... it's being a teammate.

Put Tiny Tim and Lawrence Phillips (were he not in prison forever) on the same field and see who comes out ahead. If "character always trumps talent", the guy on crutches would be a winner... But the reality is that he would get trucked into next week.

To make it closer to home... If you're starting a franchise, who do you take from a purely football perspective? Big Ben or Tim Tebow? If you say Tebow, you're letting your personal beliefs get in the way of your rationality.
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Polaris


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="detfan782004"][
4 players arrested during GB SB run states this stance is not accurate.


Quote:
11/25/2011

Green Bay



Erik Walden

Johnny Jolly

Brandon Underwood

Spencer Havner.


One of the most feeble attempts at an equivalency that I've ever seen at this site. If you truly believe it's equivalent then we're going to have to disagree.

Jolly was suspended by the NFL and hasn't played for the team since the end of the 2009 season. In fact, he never played another game for the team after the incident you cited.

Walden....no charges were pressed. He'll almost certainly not be on the team this year.

Underwood.....never played another game for the team after the incident with the necklace.

Havner..........did not make the team following his motorcycle crash.

And I could go back further:

Mark Chmura: Released by the team after the hot tub incident. Acquitted.

Mossy Cade: Released by team
James Lofton: Future HOFer was traded away after reports of inappropriate contact in nightclubs.

Nick Barnett: Released after playing a few more games following the incident.

Look, there's always going to be some bad apples. And sometimes even good guys find themselves in bad situations. That's why good coaches, from HS on up, always preach conduct and character and setting the example ON and OFF the field.

Secondly, some of these incidents the Lions are having are serious incidents. Everybody speeds, but if you get caught doing 90 in a school zone you can't use the "everybody speeds" defense.

It is in the Lions best interest to clean up their act. If they can do it without releasing people, fine, but I'd bet a lot of money that ownership would rather have the focus on guys like CJ, Stafford, etc. and making the playoffs rather than a perpetual parade of misconduct in the headlines.

Until the organization gets a handle on this, they're not going to make the next step.
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 57792
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Polaris"]
detfan782004 wrote:
[
4 players arrested during GB SB run states this stance is not accurate.


Quote:
11/25/2011

Green Bay



Erik Walden

Johnny Jolly

Brandon Underwood

Spencer Havner.


One of the most feeble attempts at an equivalency that I've ever seen at this site. If you truly believe it's equivalent then we're going to have to disagree.

Jolly was suspended by the NFL and hasn't played for the team since the end of the 2009 season. In fact, he never played another game for the team after the incident you cited.

Walden....no charges were pressed. He'll almost certainly not be on the team this year.

Underwood.....never played another game for the team after the incident with the necklace.

Havner..........did not make the team following his motorcycle crash.

And I could go back further:

Mark Chmura: Released by the team after the hot tub incident. Acquitted.

Mossy Cade: Released by team
James Lofton: Future HOFer was traded away after reports of inappropriate contact in nightclubs.

Nick Barnett: Released after playing a few more games following the incident.

Look, there's always going to be some bad apples. And sometimes even good guys find themselves in bad situations. That's why good coaches, from HS on up, always preach conduct and character and setting the example ON and OFF the field.

Secondly, some of these incidents the Lions are having are serious incidents. Everybody speeds, but if you get caught doing 90 in a school zone you can't use the "everybody speeds" defense.

It is in the Lions best interest to clean up their act. If they can do it without releasing people, fine, but I'd bet a lot of money that ownership would rather have the focus on guys like CJ, Stafford, etc. and making the playoffs rather than a perpetual parade of misconduct in the headlines.

Until the organization gets a handle on this, they're not going to make the next step.


No charges have been pressed against Lions yet. Culbreath and Berry not on team.

Yea keep digging hole with weak argument
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 27647
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polaris wrote:
Character always trumps talent.

When it's the 4th quarter on a freezing December day, and you're hurt, and tired, and beat up, and cold, and the refs are screwing you and the crowd is all against you, it isn't talent that will make the difference, it's the character. The character to perservere in the face of adversity.

Hand in hand with character is discipline. Self-discipline. I have never seen anybody excel in sports, business, academics or anything else if they weren't self-disciplined.

The Lions have been a bad team for a long time but they have a lot of talented players now and there's reason for optimism. But the challenge for the organization now is going to be to get the coaches and players to buy into the entire concept of acting like a champion on AND OFF the field.

If they can achieve that, Detroit will be one of the league's best teams; if they cannot, then all the talent in the world isn't going to change things.


If you honestly believe everything you wrote then I would have to question your perceptions.

It's quite possible to achieve in any aspect of life when you lack self discipline in a different aspect of your life. The two can be totally isolated from each other and papers are filled with examples proving the point.

You fail to mention competitive personalities. A competitive personality is a huge difference maker and it's totally possible to lack self discipline have character flaws and excel in sports or business because of those competitive instincts.

I can list numerous examples from priests to Presidents of the United States who had serious Character flaws but enjoyed immense success.
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fortdetroit


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 2143
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PackFan4Life wrote:
I haven't called for him to be fired, but I am expecting a higher level of leadership on the issue. He should be pushing for the immediate cut of Berry to draw the line and start fresh. He did not do that. Until he does draw the line and pushes for a line to be drawn, it is a tremendous let down to know a coach with that little leadership ability is extended. He is a good football mind, but that alone does not make you a worthy leader, coach, or for that matter, man.

I looked the other way for hopeful stalwarts like Leshoure and Fairly. But had it been a Finley or Raji, I'd still expect our Titletown brain trust to suspend them for several games to start the year. When a scrub like Berry got nailed, a strong message was due. Cutting Berry and drawing the line would have sent that message and your team would only be losing another Qb whipping boy. I hoPe you org over there figures it out, I hope the entire NFL figures it out.


Per the CBA, teams cannot suspend for substance abuse incidents. All suspensions for substance abuse incidents come from the league office.
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cpnesdude41


Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 1607
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Polaris"]
detfan782004 wrote:
[
4 players arrested during GB SB run states this stance is not accurate.


Quote:
11/25/2011

Green Bay



Erik Walden

Johnny Jolly

Brandon Underwood

Spencer Havner.


One of the most feeble attempts at an equivalency that I've ever seen at this site. If you truly believe it's equivalent then we're going to have to disagree.

Jolly was suspended by the NFL and hasn't played for the team since the end of the 2009 season. In fact, he never played another game for the team after the incident you cited.

Walden....no charges were pressed. He'll almost certainly not be on the team this year.

Underwood.....never played another game for the team after the incident with the necklace.

Havner..........did not make the team following his motorcycle crash.

And I could go back further:

Mark Chmura: Released by the team after the hot tub incident. Acquitted.

Mossy Cade: Released by team
James Lofton: Future HOFer was traded away after reports of inappropriate contact in nightclubs.

Nick Barnett: Released after playing a few more games following the incident.

Look, there's always going to be some bad apples. And sometimes even good guys find themselves in bad situations. That's why good coaches, from HS on up, always preach conduct and character and setting the example ON and OFF the field.

Secondly, some of these incidents the Lions are having are serious incidents. Everybody speeds, but if you get caught doing 90 in a school zone you can't use the "everybody speeds" defense.

It is in the Lions best interest to clean up their act. If they can do it without releasing people, fine, but I'd bet a lot of money that ownership would rather have the focus on guys like CJ, Stafford, etc. and making the playoffs rather than a perpetual parade of misconduct in the headlines.

Until the organization gets a handle on this, they're not going to make the next step.


Thank god someone else gets it.
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 57792
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cpnesdude41"]
Polaris wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
[
4 players arrested during GB SB run states this stance is not accurate.


Quote:
11/25/2011

Green Bay



Erik Walden

Johnny Jolly

Brandon Underwood

Spencer Havner.


One of the most feeble attempts at an equivalency that I've ever seen at this site. If you truly believe it's equivalent then we're going to have to disagree.

Jolly was suspended by the NFL and hasn't played for the team since the end of the 2009 season. In fact, he never played another game for the team after the incident you cited.

Walden....no charges were pressed. He'll almost certainly not be on the team this year.

Underwood.....never played another game for the team after the incident with the necklace.

Havner..........did not make the team following his motorcycle crash.

And I could go back further:

Mark Chmura: Released by the team after the hot tub incident. Acquitted.

Mossy Cade: Released by team
James Lofton: Future HOFer was traded away after reports of inappropriate contact in nightclubs.

Nick Barnett: Released after playing a few more games following the incident.

Look, there's always going to be some bad apples. And sometimes even good guys find themselves in bad situations. That's why good coaches, from HS on up, always preach conduct and character and setting the example ON and OFF the field.

Secondly, some of these incidents the Lions are having are serious incidents. Everybody speeds, but if you get caught doing 90 in a school zone you can't use the "everybody speeds" defense.

It is in the Lions best interest to clean up their act. If they can do it without releasing people, fine, but I'd bet a lot of money that ownership would rather have the focus on guys like CJ, Stafford, etc. and making the playoffs rather than a perpetual parade of misconduct in the headlines.

Until the organization gets a handle on this, they're not going to make the next step.


Thank god someone else gets it.


Its already been proven wrong. I guess GB DID NOT win a SB with 4 arrests.

Oh wait

You all have ZERO evidence it is an issue. I have 4 hard cold examples that it is not
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X_Factor_40


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polaris wrote:
Character always trumps talent.


Really?

Mike Vick, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Ray Lewis, and Adrian Peterson among others would argue against that. Unless of course they don't count because they had character problems on other teams that aren't the Lions. Vick torturing defenseless animals, Lewis and a murder, Peterson roughing up off duty cops, and Moss and Owens being idiots pretty much all day every day.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 27647
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

X_Factor_40 wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Character always trumps talent.


Really?

Mike Vick, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Ray Lewis, and Adrian Peterson among others would argue against that. Unless of course they don't count because they had character problems on other teams that aren't the Lions. Vick torturing defenseless animals, Lewis and a murder, Peterson roughing up off duty cops, and Moss and Owens being idiots pretty much all day every day.


There are so many examples that destroy his point. The reality is a great deal of high achieving individuals have character flaws. It doesn't matter where you look in society there are glaring examples. It's just in vogue to make presumptuous statements about the Lions currently.
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Go_LiOnS


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

think it goes toward more high profile players. when they mess up it does have all kinds of different affects on the team. media being one of the biggest imo. no media cares about berry for example and doesnt take time away from the team. always hated how when someone screws up you have the team leaders (players) wasting ther breath/time with the matter. every team has issues. to me its how you handle them. idc what rd your drafted in, you become a distraction i got to boot ya. trade or release. LeShoure and Fairley should be on very thin ice imo
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AlexGreen#20


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I come in peace

I think the argument that makes sense is that immaturity is the root of all of the problems, that the Lions are having.

Yeah, you lost to the Saints in the playoffs, but you were a win away from not having to play them in the first round. Having Suh, in that Saints game he got suspended for might have been the difference. There might have been a game in the season where you would have won if not for stupid penalties. You can certainly admit that there were many idiotic penalties committed during the year.

Same deal with the off the field stuff. None of the crimes committed have been malicious. They're idiotic. Sure, they endanger people but their not doing sadistic things. That doesn't make it okay because they're still risking the lives of others but saying that these are "bad guys" can't be said with certainty.

Immature and stupid, yes. Bad/evil, no
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