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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Texans WR Situation Reply with quote

I figured I would go ahead and start a stand alone thread for this topic since I'm going to be beating this drum until we do more than cross our fingers on AJs health, rely on a declining 31 year old Kevin Walter who couldn't crack 500 yards last year, 2 middle of the pack raw rookies, and a gaggle of undrafted free agents. Before you go questioning whether my concern is off base, let me remind you that many here were convinced that Dwight Jones was going to be a contributor this year before all was said and done and the mere fact that someone like that was even in the conversation shows how weak we are at the position. I never thought I'd see the day where our team featuring Andre Johnson actually has an inferior receiving corps to the Titans and Jags. Don't want all these thoughts buried under each Sims-Walker level tire kicking thread, so here you go. I'm certainly not alone in my concern about the WR position:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1200409-dwight-jones-mike-sims-walker-either-way-the-texans-have-a-problem-at-wideout

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1187408-power-ranking-the-best-wr-corps-in-the-afc-south
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kenney


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You and John Lopez aren't the only ones I've heard supposing that the Texans' new major contributor at WR for 2012 isn't yet on the roster. You were the first to suggest Santana Moss, though. I wouldn't be overly surprised to see us trade for a middling WR sometime in training camp.

I've got a lot of un-earned confidence in Lestar Jean, though. I don't know why, I'm usually skeptical about this sort of hype train.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenney wrote:
You and John Lopez aren't the only ones I've heard supposing that the Texans' new major contributor at WR for 2012 isn't yet on the roster. You were the first to suggest Santana Moss, though. I wouldn't be overly surprised to see us trade a WR for a middling guy sometime in training camp.

I've got a lot of un-earned confidence in Lestar Jean, though. I don't know why, I'm usually skeptical about this sort of hype train.


I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried. I have faith in the young guys, but I'd rather us make a more calculated move, vs going after a name with some stats, such as a Terrell Owens or Braylon Edwards.

To me, it always seems as if we get a big contributor that was signed off the street - look at our secondary since 2007, and you see a gaggle of names that were brought in late, and made an impact; Will Demps, Eugene Wilson, Bernard Pollard, Jason Allen...in fact, last year was the first time we DIDN'T shore up our secondary with a last second name who was pressed into starting. It's a good sign that our secondary has finally shaped up into what we want it to be.

So, I fully expect the same model to be followed in terms of WR. We will let teams make their decisions in regards to the WR position, then we'll make our pitch to someone who is looking for a gig and can be had on the cheap - someone who does have some upside in terms of this upcoming season.

I am keeping a steady eye on San Francisco, as they have a deep WR camp this year - AJ Jenkins and Michael Crabtree are all but locked into spot, as is Mario Manningham. The rest of it is up in the air, as Randy Moss, Kyle Williams, Ted Ginn Jr and a host of other young pups fight for a spot. I'm certain one of the big two names (Ginn or Moss) won't make it out, and if it's Ginn...it wouldn't hurt to have a downfield runner who is one of the best KR in the game on hand.

Arizona is another team with their top three on hand in Larry Fitzgerald, Michael Floyd and Early Doucet, and the team might feel as if WR Andre Roberts makes too much money to be a #4 WR. He could hit the waiver wire sooner rather than later.

New England currently has an abundance of WRs, one of which should be ready to be had: Wes Welker, Brandon Lloyd and Jabar Gaffney are more or less the locked guys, so that leaves spots in jeopardy for the likes of Julian Edelman, Matthew Slater, Brandon Tate, Deion Branch and Chad Ochocinco. I'd vomit if it was 85, but the rest of the names aren't TOO bad.

I'll admit, we more or less missed the bus in regards to WRs, letting FA get by us, as well as not being as aggressive as we should of been, letting Rueben Randle get snagged right before we were up. (I will STILL believe that we had Randle in our sights and then got cute with Tampa Bay, thinking Randle would still be there by the 4th pick of the 3rd round). I didn't like Randle much at the draft, but he would look pretty enticing as a member of this unit right about now...
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kenney


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
kenney wrote:
You and John Lopez aren't the only ones I've heard supposing that the Texans' new major contributor at WR for 2012 isn't yet on the roster. You were the first to suggest Santana Moss, though. I wouldn't be overly surprised to see us trade a WR for a middling guy sometime in training camp.

I've got a lot of un-earned confidence in Lestar Jean, though. I don't know why, I'm usually skeptical about this sort of hype train.


I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried. I have faith in the young guys, but I'd rather us make a more calculated move, vs going after a name with some stats, such as a Terrell Owens or Braylon Edwards.

To me, it always seems as if we get a big contributor that was signed off the street - look at our secondary since 2007, and you see a gaggle of names that were brought in late, and made an impact; Will Demps, Eugene Wilson, Bernard Pollard, Jason Allen...in fact, last year was the first time we DIDN'T shore up our secondary with a last second name who was pressed into starting. It's a good sign that our secondary has finally shaped up into what we want it to be.

So, I fully expect the same model to be followed in terms of WR. We will let teams make their decisions in regards to the WR position, then we'll make our pitch to someone who is looking for a gig and can be had on the cheap - someone who does have some upside in terms of this upcoming season.

I am keeping a steady eye on San Francisco, as they have a deep WR camp this year - AJ Jenkins and Michael Crabtree are all but locked into spot, as is Mario Manningham. The rest of it is up in the air, as Randy Moss, Kyle Williams, Ted Ginn Jr and a host of other young pups fight for a spot. I'm certain one of the big two names (Ginn or Moss) won't make it out, and if it's Ginn...it wouldn't hurt to have a downfield runner who is one of the best KR in the game on hand.

Arizona is another team with their top three on hand in Larry Fitzgerald, Michael Floyd and Early Doucet, and the team might feel as if WR Andre Roberts makes too much money to be a #4 WR. He could hit the waiver wire sooner rather than later.

New England currently has an abundance of WRs, one of which should be ready to be had: Wes Welker, Brandon Lloyd and Jabar Gaffney are more or less the locked guys, so that leaves spots in jeopardy for the likes of Julian Edelman, Matthew Slater, Brandon Tate, Deion Branch and Chad Ochocinco. I'd vomit if it was 85, but the rest of the names aren't TOO bad.

I'll admit, we more or less missed the bus in regards to WRs, letting FA get by us, as well as not being as aggressive as we should of been, letting Rueben Randle get snagged right before we were up. (I will STILL believe that we had Randle in our sights and then got cute with Tampa Bay, thinking Randle would still be there by the 4th pick of the 3rd round). I didn't like Randle much at the draft, but he would look pretty enticing as a member of this unit right about now...


Ted Ginn, Jr. would be a safe bet. Kubiak and Smith both said they'd intended to take him at 10 if Miami hadn't taken him at 9.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenney wrote:
Ted Ginn, Jr. would be a safe bet. Kubiak and Smith both said they'd intended to take him at 10 if Miami hadn't taken him at 9.


Of the potential names, he'd be the one I would want the most. New England has a nice set of names, with Edelman standing out the most. He's a converted QB, but has played WR and DB for the Pats, just a hard nosed football player who really came to play for the Pats in the playoffs, when Wes Welker went down with his ACL/MCL tear. More quick than fast, would probably be a #2/#3 tweener that would be a massive improvement over anyone we currently have in the slot.

I see him beating out the likes of Tate, Branch, Ochocinco and Slater, so maybe it's a moot point. Hoodie seems to love the guy. If it IS the case, Deion Branch has had some great moments in the NFL - experienced in the playoffs, SB MVP, has some consistent production over the life of his career (600-800 a season for the most part). I'm all but certain he doesn't make it out of NE camp. Hoodie has no problems getting rid of someone when they've outlived their usefulness, and Branch fits that description...
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few responses:

Quote:
Ted Ginn, Jr. would be a safe bet. Kubiak and Smith both said they'd intended to take him at 10 if Miami hadn't taken him at 9


Most comments like this are completely contrived and done for strategic purpose (in this case likely to take the heat off new coach Cam Cameron or GM Randy Muelller for not taking Brady Quinn). Chargers GM AJ Smith did the same for Rick when he let it "slip" that he was considering Duane Brown in 08 (Rick & AJ pulled off the Travis Johnson trade the next year). This year Andy Reid tried to help build a trade market for his buddy Tom Heckert and the Browns by letting it slip that he was interested in trading up for Tannehill. I would have supported Ginn had we not drafted Martin and signed Forsett, but he brings too little as a receiver to be worth burning a roster spot on.

Quote:
I've got a lot of un-earned confidence in Lestar Jean, though. I don't know why, I'm usually skeptical about this sort of hype train


Remember this time last year when Dorin Dickerson was a lock for the #4 WR job and was reportedly pushing Walter & Jacoby? Again, much of this stuff is said for effect. You have a 4th round pick in Posey who is out of shape and doesn't exactly display a great work ethic, what better way to motivate than sing the praises of the UDFA who he needs to beat out. It's not that I don't think Jean has potential, as he did look good in that 1 preseason game, but being a legit NFL receiver is not about winning a few jump balls against 4th stringers or even making an isolated spectacular catch, it's consistency on the mundane stuff like route running, blocking assignments, and catching all the easy balls. I could be more on board with Jean if he could demonstrate that he can separate against real NFL corners and if he gets PT as the #3 he'll get that chance.

Quote:
Hoodie has no problems getting rid of someone when they've outlived their usefulness, and Branch fits that description..


Funny how Branch put up back to back 700+ yards seasons for NE despite being written off for trendier WRs both seasons and quietly works himself back into being Tom's favorite deep threat. When it comes to NE WRs it's about who Brady wants to throw to more than who hoodie puts on the roster and Brady loves him some Branch. That being said I wouldn't want any part of Branch who reminds me of Alvin Harper who is only successful because of his relationship with one QB and because defenses are trying stop all the weapons that are better than him.
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jch1911


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would add one other name to those being bandied about: Ruvell Martin (BUF). He is a big, fast target who is willing to also get his hands dirty on special teams.

Also, I don't think it needs to be said, but if GB cuts Dale Moss or tries to place him on their practice roster, I think Rich Smith should be all over that kid. He is the Conner Barwin of WR's.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Quote:
Hoodie has no problems getting rid of someone when they've outlived their usefulness, and Branch fits that description..


Funny how Branch put up back to back 700+ yards seasons for NE despite being written off for trendier WRs both seasons and quietly works himself back into being Tom's favorite deep threat. When it comes to NE WRs it's about who Brady wants to throw to more than who hoodie puts on the roster and Brady loves him some Branch. That being said I wouldn't want any part of Branch who reminds me of Alvin Harper who is only successful because of his relationship with one QB and because defenses are trying stop all the weapons that are better than him.


As you said, it's about who Brady wants to throw to. We have that answer now, in Wes Welker, Aaron Hernandez and Rob Gronkowski. The 700+ yard season seems like a good number for a WR, but when you see that it would be in fourth place (Gronk had 1,700+ yards, Welker had 1,500+ and Hernandez was 90 yards off of a 1,000 season) you see that the claim that Brady has him as a favorite in ANY capacity is not the case.

Brady has found his big three. Branch is now a distant 4th option, and it isn't as if they brought in Brandon Lloyd to NOT take that role. Lloyd is now going to take on the work as the #4/deep threat WR, and his body of work does state that he's probably the right man for the job.

Granted, I just looked at Branch's deal - cap friendly, wouldn't hurt to have him sitting on the bench just in case something happens to Welker or Lloyd. Brandon Tate isn't listed on the roster, Edelman is a utility guy who plays tough and will do anything the coaches ask of him...from looking at the Pats, it seems as if the pickings will come down to 85, Jermey Ebert, Matthew Slater, Donte Stallworth or Britt Davis. Not exactly a great choice of names out there...
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treece300e


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm probably alone in this, but I think we could get the leftovers of the crowded WR corps in St. Louis. They have a slew of young, talented receivers that have had as much chance to catch a ball as Bradford has had to stay upright long enough to throw it. You'd have to assume that Quick and Givens are a lock given the position they were drafted (2nd and 4th). Amendola is coming back from surgery but has proven to be a solid contributor in the past and has that Wes Welker-esque stigma. That leaves Brandon Gibson, Denario Alexander, Greg Salas and Austin Pettis fighting for #4-6. Salas and Pettis are both in their Sophomore campaigns and it may be too early for them to part ways. Salas also started showing some promise last year. I watched Pettis A LOT at BSU and he is a solid football player that I would love to have in this system. He is a good blocker, route runner, fantastic hands and was a terror in the red zone. He has the size we seem to desire (6'3" 210, 4.5-40) and will play special teams, too. He blocked a few kicks and punts for BSU and has said he enjoys that aspect of the game. He was drafted prior to the current regime and may not fit into Fisher's plan.

However, I think that either Gibson or Alexander will be the leftovers. While I'd prefer Gibson, I think Alexander will be the odd man out, which may have our coaches drooling at his 6'5", 215 pound frame. He's from Waco and would probably love to make a homecoming. And as far as I know, there are no off-field issues for him either.

EDIT: Forgot that they also have Steve Smith, formerly of the Giants and Eagles.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treece300e wrote:
However, I think that either Gibson or Alexander will be the leftovers. While I'd prefer Gibson, I think Alexander will be the odd man out, which may have our coaches drooling at his 6'5", 215 pound frame. He's from Waco and would probably love to make a homecoming. And as far as I know, there are no off-field issues for him either.

EDIT: Forgot that they also have Steve Smith, formerly of the Giants and Eagles.

I like Danrio Alexander, but he's a walking torn ACL. Guy just can't stay healthy to save his life. When he is on the field, he's dynamic...but that is few and far between.
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lumberjackchris


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't read everyones responses but did anyone bring up Bryant Johnson? I know he's not out savior but he knows the system, has some talent and looked decent when called on last year.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lumberjackchris wrote:
I didn't read everyones responses but did anyone bring up Bryant Johnson? I know he's not out savior but he knows the system, has some talent and looked decent when called on last year.


I'm sure he's on the short list if push comes to shove. We envisioned our younger guys making him replaceable, but if they haven't...then this move makes sense.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly we need to figure out what we're going to do with our wrs. We really need a better wideout playing out wide. AJ is not nearly as dominant with his injuries and Walter is nothing but a slot guy IMO. We need a big body number 2 who can play top dog if AJ goes down. Not sure who is out there, but we better explore the possibility of even making a trade for one....
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kubiak at Touchdown Club yesterday:
Quote:

On WR DeVier Posey (third round, Ohio State): Im probably hollering at him as much as any player on the field right now, but Im trying to bring him along. I know how much he has to help this football team this year. He missed a lot of football last year, and that puts him behind. But talent-wise, he can help us. Hes got to go in there and hes got to be a part of Kevin Walter, Andre Johnson and Lestar Jean and help us be a great football team, and Ive got to get him to that point.


Quote:
On WR Keshawn Martin (fourth round, Michigan State): I dont want to say that hes the one that has surprised me the most, but I knew that we were drafting a returner, and obviously, losing Jacoby (Jones), we need some return help. This guy will help us from that standpoint, but I think hell help us also offensively. Hes been exceptional throughout OTAs. And yeah, Ill use the word: Hes been a pleasant surprise. Hes doing more than probably I thought he could do at this point.


I was at this lunch last year and it's pretty much a love fest where you hear nothing but great things from the podium and then get the real story at the tables. If I were to interpret these comments using the same multiplier on where the truth really lies as last year, it just continues to support everything I'm hearing that they are considerably underwhelmed with Posey thus far (Kubiak was flat po'ed at him again yesterday) and that Martin could be threatening his roster spot if you figure Jean gets a spot, kick returner gets one, and a veteran to be named later eventually gets one. I'm not going to shocked if Posey gets hawaiian shirted to the Texans IR resort this year before this is said and done.
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jch1911


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
If I were to interpret these comments using the same multiplier on where the truth really lies as last year, it just continues to support everything I'm hearing that they are considerably underwhelmed with Posey thus far (Kubiak was flat po'ed at him again yesterday) .... I'm not going to shocked if Posey gets hawaiian shirted to the Texans IR resort this year before this is said and done.


Mohamed Sanu, T.Y. Hilton, Chris Givens, Joe Adams, Jarius Wright, Nick Toon, Greg Childs, Danny Coale, Marvin Jones, Juron Criner, Marvin McNutt, Tommy Streeter

Just SOME of the receivers that were still on the table when we took Koobs' pet project (Posey). I will be especially pi$$ed if Sanu, Givens, Wright, Toon, Childs (despite the injuries, still my favorite), Criner, or Streeter has a really good first (and second... and third... etc) year because they all made more sense than Posey did.

Just my way of saying Posey needs to show me something or I will chalk this up to a long list of top 3-round skill position draft failures.
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