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Most Dominant Legend of His Sport? ( Federer vs. Gretzky )
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More Dominant Sports Legend?
Roger Federer
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
Wayne Gretzky
65%
 65%  [ 23 ]
Other.
14%
 14%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 35

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playmaker8267


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not even going to attempt to pretend I know anything about tennis, much less claim I'm worth listening to about the sport. All I'm here to do is underline Gretzky's greatness.

Wayne Gretzky leads the NHL in points all time by 970, which is 51% of the number two guy's total (Mark Messier). The 970 gap takes you from 1 all time to 2 all time. 972 takes you from 2 all time to 92 all time.

He leads in goals all time with 894, 93 ahead of Gordie Howe, who played in almost 300 more games. 93 goals takes you from 1-2. It also takes you from 2 to 6 all time.

He (shocker) leads in assists all time with 1963, 57% more than Ron Francis who's at number 2. The gap between them is 714, which takes you from Gretzky to Francis, but 715 takes you from Francis to Sergei Gonchar, who's number 108 all-time.

Gretzky doesn't only own basically all of the NHL's scoring records, along with 4 Stanley Cups mind you, but he's miles ahead of those behind him.
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redsoxsuck05


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

playmaker8267 wrote:
I'm not even going to attempt to pretend I know anything about tennis, much less claim I'm worth listening to about the sport. All I'm here to do is underline Gretzky's greatness.

Wayne Gretzky leads the NHL in points all time by 970, which is 51% of the number two guy's total (Mark Messier). The 970 gap takes you from 1 all time to 2 all time. 972 takes you from 2 all time to 92 all time.

He leads in goals all time with 894, 93 ahead of Gordie Howe, who played in almost 300 more games. 93 goals takes you from 1-2. It also takes you from 2 to 6 all time.

He (shocker) leads in assists all time with 1963, 57% more than Ron Francis who's at number 2. The gap between them is 714, which takes you from Gretzky to Francis, but 715 takes you from Francis to Sergei Gonchar, who's number 108 all-time.

Gretzky doesn't only own basically all of the NHL's scoring records, along with 4 Stanley Cups mind you, but he's miles ahead of those behind him.


In fairness to Howe, goal scoring wasn't nearly as prevalent in the days of the Original Six, but my point still stands.
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bkobow05


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

playmaker8267 wrote:
I'm not even going to attempt to pretend I know anything about tennis, much less claim I'm worth listening to about the sport. All I'm here to do is underline Gretzky's greatness.

Wayne Gretzky leads the NHL in points all time by 970, which is 51% of the number two guy's total (Mark Messier). The 970 gap takes you from 1 all time to 2 all time. 972 takes you from 2 all time to 92 all time.

He leads in goals all time with 894, 93 ahead of Gordie Howe, who played in almost 300 more games. 93 goals takes you from 1-2. It also takes you from 2 to 6 all time.

He (shocker) leads in assists all time with 1963, 57% more than Ron Francis who's at number 2. The gap between them is 714, which takes you from Gretzky to Francis, but 715 takes you from Francis to Sergei Gonchar, who's number 108 all-time.

Gretzky doesn't only own basically all of the NHL's scoring records, along with 4 Stanley Cups mind you, but he's miles ahead of those behind him.
I'm sorry but when it comes to Gretzky vs Lemieux, it's hard to compare bulk stats because Mario was away from the game for 4+ years.

If you were to take on a per game basis, Lemieux scored 0.75 goals per compared to Gretzky's 0.6 per. Assists? 1.12 for Mario and 1.32 for Wayne. Points? 1.88 for Mario compared to 1.92 for Gretzky.

I know this is speculative but if Mario had played as many games as Gretzky, he would have had 1121 goals (based on his per game average of 0.754). That would have put him 227 goals ahead of Gretzky. Yeah, I know he wouldn't have put up 1121 but, IMO, he would have exceeded Gretzky's goal total. As far as assists go, Mario would have ended up with 1678 if he had played as many games as Gretzky. So take the 1121 and 1678 and you'd get 2799 points. A mere 58 points behind the Great One.

Mario Lemieux is the greatest goal scorer of all-time IMO and my #1 all-time, period.

EDIT: Another interesting tidbit about Mario is that he only played more than 60 games 10 times in his 17 year career (59 in 1990) compared to 19 years of 60 or more for Gretzky in his 20 year career.
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redsoxsuck05


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bkobow05 wrote:
playmaker8267 wrote:
I'm not even going to attempt to pretend I know anything about tennis, much less claim I'm worth listening to about the sport. All I'm here to do is underline Gretzky's greatness.

Wayne Gretzky leads the NHL in points all time by 970, which is 51% of the number two guy's total (Mark Messier). The 970 gap takes you from 1 all time to 2 all time. 972 takes you from 2 all time to 92 all time.

He leads in goals all time with 894, 93 ahead of Gordie Howe, who played in almost 300 more games. 93 goals takes you from 1-2. It also takes you from 2 to 6 all time.

He (shocker) leads in assists all time with 1963, 57% more than Ron Francis who's at number 2. The gap between them is 714, which takes you from Gretzky to Francis, but 715 takes you from Francis to Sergei Gonchar, who's number 108 all-time.

Gretzky doesn't only own basically all of the NHL's scoring records, along with 4 Stanley Cups mind you, but he's miles ahead of those behind him.
I'm sorry but when it comes to Gretzky vs Lemieux, it's hard to compare bulk stats because Mario was away from the game for 4+ years.

If you were to take on a per game basis, Lemieux scored 0.75 goals per compared to Gretzky's 0.6 per. Assists? 1.12 for Mario and 1.32 for Wayne. Points? 1.88 for Mario compared to 1.92 for Gretzky.

I know this is speculative but if Mario had played as many games as Gretzky, he would have had 1121 goals (based on his per game average of 0.754). That would have put him 227 goals ahead of Gretzky. Yeah, I know he wouldn't have put up 1121 but, IMO, he would have exceeded Gretzky's goal total. As far as assists go, Mario would have ended up with 1678 if he had played as many games as Gretzky. So take the 1121 and 1678 and you'd get 2799 points. A mere 58 points behind the Great One.

Mario Lemieux is the greatest goal scorer of all-time IMO and my #1 all-time, period.

EDIT: Another interesting tidbit about Mario is that he only played more than 60 games 10 times in his 17 year career (59 in 1990) compared to 19 years of 60 or more for Gretzky in his 20 year career.


Had Mario played as many games as Gretzky do you think his goals per game would still be that much higher. Yeah, there were injuries and obviously the cancer but Gretzky was never quite the same after a hit from Gary Suter either.

I'd say the greatest goalscorer ever was the guy who got 92 goals. After him you got Howe, the Hulls, Bossy, and Lemieux (not in any particular order).

And durability is part of the equation when we're talking greatest. And I'm not talking about the cancer, just the other various injuries Mario had.
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kempus


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously, I posted this on the last page, but in terms of the greatest sporting legend in their discipline it has to be Eddy Merckx. He is the undisputed greatest cyclist ever, his record is absolutely unbelievable.

His record of achievements is unparalleled.

His eleven Grand Tour victories are the most ever:

5 Tour De France wins
5 Giro D'Italia
1 Vuelta A Espana

As Tex said, his record of winning the Overall classification, points and mountains is practically impossible. This was something he did in both the Tour and the Giro as well. Merckx also holds the record for the most number of stage victories in the Tour with 34.

Merckx was also pretty much unparalleled in the elite one day classics. Here is the easiest way of looking at if for a non cycling fan. The 5 Monuments are the Elite one day races. Merckx hold the record for most total monument wins by 8, and also holds the record for most wins in both the Milan-San Remo and Liege-Baston-Liege with 7 and 5. Only 3 cyclists have managed to pick up a victory in all 5 of the events.

Merckx was also crowned as World Champion on 3 occasions. Here is just a quick list of his other records:

The other records Merckx set:
Most career victories by a professional cyclist: 525.
Most victories in one season: 54.
Most stage victories in one Tour de France: 8, in 1970 and 1974 (shared with Charles Pélissier in 1930 and Freddy Maertens in 1976).
Most days with the yellow jersey in the Tour de France: 96.
Most victories in classics: 28.
Most victories in one single classic: 7 (in Milan – San Remo).

Essentially he is the unquestioned greatest cyclist ever and most of his records will never be beaten.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kempus wrote:
Seriously, I posted this on the last page, but in terms of the greatest sporting legend in their discipline it has to be Eddy Merckx. He is the undisputed greatest cyclist ever, his record is absolutely unbelievable.

His record of achievements is unparalleled.

His eleven Grand Tour victories are the most ever:

5 Tour De France wins
5 Giro D'Italia
1 Vuelta A Espana

As Tex said, his record of winning the Overall classification, points and mountains is practically impossible. This was something he did in both the Tour and the Giro as well. Merckx also holds the record for the most number of stage victories in the Tour with 34.

Merckx was also pretty much unparalleled in the elite one day classics. Here is the easiest way of looking at if for a non cycling fan. The 5 Monuments are the Elite one day races. Merckx hold the record for most total monument wins by 8, and also holds the record for most wins in both the Milan-San Remo and Liege-Baston-Liege with 7 and 5. Only 3 cyclists have managed to pick up a victory in all 5 of the events.

Merckx was also crowned as World Champion on 3 occasions. Here is just a quick list of his other records:

The other records Merckx set:
Most career victories by a professional cyclist: 525.
Most victories in one season: 54.
Most stage victories in one Tour de France: 8, in 1970 and 1974 (shared with Charles Pélissier in 1930 and Freddy Maertens in 1976).
Most days with the yellow jersey in the Tour de France: 96.
Most victories in classics: 28.
Most victories in one single classic: 7 (in Milan – San Remo).

Essentially he is the unquestioned greatest cyclist ever and most of his records will never be beaten.


Don Bradman could have something to say about that. His career batting average is 99.94. The next highest is 60.97 (Graeme Pollack). 39 runs per innings higher than the 2nd best is INSANE.
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x0x


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redsoxsuck05 wrote:

Had Mario played as many games as Gretzky do you think his goals per game would still be that much higher. Yeah, there were injuries and obviously the cancer but Gretzky was never quite the same after a hit from Gary Suter either.


Lemieux had an injury riddled season at 28, and then retired.

Coming back at age 30, he would lead the league in goals with 69. Nobody has gotten higher than 69 since, and we're talking about younger players like Stamkos and Ovechkin.

After two seasons back, Lemieux retired a second time at age 32.

Three seasons later he would come back and at age 35 score 35 goals in 43 games. An unheard of average at the time.

So don't tell me Lemieux wouldn't have scored 1,000 career goals had he played without cancer and retirement until 2003. Furthermore, he would have scored even more had he come into the league in 1980 as oppose to 84 ( due to higher goals averages and more time in the 80s, like Gretzky ).

Quote:
I'd say the greatest goalscorer ever was the guy who got 92 goals. After him you got Howe, the Hulls, Bossy, and Lemieux (not in any particular order).


Bobby Hull lead the league in goal scoring for 7 seasons, Gretzky did for 5. Furthermore, Hull left the NHL with plenty left in the tank. Most believe he would have at least broken 800 goals, and he played in a vastly lower scoring era. He had seasons where he'd be scoring 50+ goals and the next closest guy had 34, or something like that.

So no, Gretzky had the best career, perhaps in all of sports, because he coincidentally came in at the height of scoring and left the game when it was at its lowest point.

It's actually a testament to Lemieux being better because he was scoring the same amount as Gretzky as league averages were declining. Nobody can touch 92 goals right now because the game does not allow them too. Goalie padding, defensive strategy and diluted teams. Factoring all of this in, Gretzky's records are inflated much like Wilt Chamberlain's are. Not that either player is a #1 candidate in their sport, but their numbers should be taken within context.

If you don't believe me, look up Lemieux's 1996 season before his 2nd retirement.




Also, here's a screenshot of this poll on a hockey forum:




Clearly the majority of the posters here don't even grasp tennis.


texans_uk, you clearly have this blinded view of how Borg, Connors and McEnroe overlapped. They did not overlap as you think.

Borg had no real contemporaries on grass as Connors wasn't the best on grass and was aging. And then there was no competitor on clay.

Also, Borg wasn't that good on hard courts as an aging Connors was better than him and McEnroe ran rough-shot for a few years over everybody else.


Let me tell you about a man called Andre Agassi. If it weren't for Pete Sampras, Agassi may have a career 15 Slams. Agassi may be considered the greatest ever.


As for the 00s not having anybody who would standout in another era without Federer? Okay, you're welcome to believe that. Roddick would have certainly been considered an all-time great. There are actually 6 Slams he would have won without a doubt if Federer didn't stand in his way. Not only is that 7 career slams we're talking about overall, but understanding the game of tennis, Roddick would have a ton more confidence and probably have less of those early round upsests.


Another player that would have been remembered had Federer not stood in his way would be Hewitt. Man would have made at least 3 more Slam Finals, probably would have won 1 or 2 of them, and he probably wins the 2005 Aussie Open because no way would Safin have played as great if he wasn't tested by Roger in the Semifinal like he was.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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seminoles1


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see people are posting a bunch of records held by their choices. I'll post a fraction of Federer's to keep it interesting.
(These are assuming he wins tomorrow and only speaking of men's tennis)

-Most Grand Slam victories in history: 17 (2nd is Sampras with 14)
-Most Grand Slam finals appearances: 24 (2nd is Lendl with 19)
-Most consecutive Grand Slam finals appearances in the open era and of all-time: 10 (2nd is Federer with 8, 3rd overall is Jack Crawford with 7 and 3rd in the Open Era is Nadal with 5)
-Most Wimbledon titles: 7 (tied with Sampras)
-Most consecutive Wimbledon titles in the Open Era: 5 (tied with Borg)
-Most US Open titles: 5 (tied with Sampras and Connors)
-Most consecutive US Open titles in the Open Era: 5
-Most Grand Slam semifinals appearances: 32 (2nd is Connors with 31)
-Most consecutive Grand Slam semifinals appearances: 23 (2nd is Lendl with 10)
-Most consecutive Grand Slam quarterfinals appearances: 33 and counting (2nd is Connors with 27)
-Federer is the only male player to reach the final of all four Grand Slam singles tournaments more than three times, with at least five times each
-Federer is the only male player in tennis history to reach the final of all four Grand Slam tournaments in back to back calendar years
-Federer is the only male player in tennis history to reach at least three Grand Slam finals for four consecutive calendar years and five overall
-Federer is the only player to defend the same Grand Slam 4 straight times at 2 different slams, win 5 consecutive titles at 2 different slams, and the only player to win the same two Grand Slam tournaments back to back for four consecutive years.
-Federer (2006–09 French Open, 2003–09 Wimbledon, 2004–09 US Open) is the only male player in tennis history to reach at least four consecutive finals at three different Grand Slam tournaments.
-Federer is the only player to win 3 Grand Slam titles more than 4 times (4x Australian Open champion, 5x US Open champion, 7 time Wimbledon Champion)
-Federer is the only player in tennis history to win at least two Grand Slam titles for four consecutive years and five years overall
-Federer is the only male player in tennis history to win three Grand Slam tournaments in a calendar year three different times in his career
-Federer is the only player to defend successfully all three Grand Slams the following year one time in his career
-Federer is the only player in tennis history to win 6 Grand Slam titles in two years (2006–07), 8 in three years (2004–06, 2005–07), 11 in four years (2004–07), 12 in five years (2003–07, 2004–0Cool, 14 in six years (2004–09), 15 in seven years (2003–09) and 16 in eight years (2003–10). 11 Grand Slam titles in four years is an all-time record
-Federer has faced twelve different opponents and defeated eleven of them in Grand Slam finals (all except Juan Martín Del Potro), an all-time men's record
-Federer is one of only 4 players to win all 4 Grand Slams in his career in the Open Era
-Federer is one of only 2 players (Nadal) to have simultaneously held 3 Grand Slam titles on clay, grass, and hard courts.
-Federer is the only player to win at least one bagel set in three different Grand Slam finals (2004 US Open, 2006 Australian Open and 2006 Wimbledon). Federer is the only player to win two bagel sets in a Grand Slam final (2004 US Open)
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Purpes17


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fedor over both Very Happy
Who was the #2 and 3 ranked guys when Roger was murking people every tourney? Seriously wondering because all I can think of is Nadal, and Blake.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purpes17 wrote:
Fedor over both Very Happy
Who was the #2 and 3 ranked guys when Roger was murking people every tourney? Seriously wondering because all I can think of is Nadal, and Blake.


Who did Fedor fight during that run? You can't knock Fed on level of comp then bring up Fedor for crying out loud.
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seminoles1


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purpes17 wrote:
Who was the #2 and 3 ranked guys when Roger was murking people every tourney? Seriously wondering because all I can think of is Nadal, and Blake.
Different guys. Agassi was at the back end of his career, but was #1 when Federer won his first Slam and was a top 10 player for a couple more years. After him you had:

-Lleyton Hewitt: 2x Grand Slam champion, 2x Grand Slam runner-up to Federer, 4x Grand Slam semifinalist with 2 of those losses coming to Federer, #1 ranked player for 80 weeks
-Andy Roddick: 1x Grand Slam champion, 4x Grand Slam runner-up to Federer, 5x Grand Slam semifinalist with 3 of those losses coming to Federer, #1 ranked player for 13 weeks
-Marat Safin: 2x Grand Slam champion, 2x Grand Slam runner-up and 1x to Federer, 3x Grand Slam semifinalist with 1 of those losses coming to Federer, #1 ranked player for 9 weeks
-Rafael Nadal: 11x Grand Slam champion, 5x Grand Slam runner-up and 2x to Federer, 3x Grand Slam semifinalist, #1 ranked player for 102 weeks
-Novak Djokovic: 5x Grand Slam champion, 3x Grand Slam runner-up and 1x to Federer, 8x Grand Slam semifinalist with 4 of those losses coming to Federer, #1 ranked player for 54 weeks
-Andy Murray (assuming a loss to Federer in the 2012 Wimbledon Final): 4x Grand Slam runner-up and 3x to Federer, 6x Grand Slam semifinalist, widely considered to be by far the best player to never win a Grand Slam.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purpes17 wrote:
Fedor over both Very Happy
Who was the #2 and 3 ranked guys when Roger was murking people every tourney? Seriously wondering because all I can think of is Nadal, and Blake.


It varied.

At the beginning of his run it was Roddick and Hewitt (Nadal became #2 in 2005 which was the second year of Fed's dominance-these guys were 2 and 3 with Safin 4 in 2004).

Djokovic became #3 in 2007 and remained there until becoming #1. Andy Murray became #4 in 2008 and that started the stranglehold these 4 had on the top 4 spots.

From 2008-2009 Fed was in 7 of the 8 GS finals winning 3. In these 8 GS he was:
2-1 against Djokovic
0-3 against Nadal
1-0 against Murray

2010 started his decline (if that is what you want to call it given he was still at worst #3). He turned 29 that season while the others were in their prime.

EDIT: Given this and seminoles1's post above I feel safe in saying the rumor of Fed having weak competition is greately exagerated.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Purpes17 wrote:
Fedor over both Very Happy
Who was the #2 and 3 ranked guys when Roger was murking people every tourney? Seriously wondering because all I can think of is Nadal, and Blake.


Who did Fedor fight during that run? You can't knock Fed on level of comp then bring up Fedor for crying out loud.

Not turning it into an MMA argument haha my bad.
But in case ur wondering he fought 12 top 10 ranked fighters at the time in the best HW divisions at the time (PRIDE, AFFLICTION).
Wasn't knocking Fed either if you read right I was wondering not actually chirping Fed because I didn't remember who was always ranked behind him I just remember him destroying everyone.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, but Gretzky wasn't the most dominant. Gretzky was the main piece of a team filled with Hall of Famers in their prime. I'm sorry, but I still feel that Gretzky, who was equal to Mario Lemieux, had the clear advantage (in terms of NHL records) because of the talent he played with.

Yes, Mario had years of NHL greats, but his injuries held him back, plus his best years ever were with guys like Rob Brown. Mario Lemieux puts up 199 points (85 goals) with two AHL players as his linemates. Gretzky puts up 200-215 while with guys like Glenn Anderson, Mark Messier, and Jari Kurri.

Switch these situations. Put Mario with those guys for the first 7-8 years and Gretzky with garbage. I bet conversations between the two call Mario the clear favorite.

Just look at the Olympics (when Mario / Gretzky played together). Clips from their play with others in the Olympics is a prime example.

Interestingly enough, I'm pretty certain that a study was done to compare this era to past eras, and even then, Gretzky wasn't the most dominant goal scorer. I'm pretty sure the study showed Ovechkin was a better goalie scorer than Gretzky. However, there will never be a better passer than Gretzky.
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