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JDLefebvre
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 22383
Location: Midway PA /Clovis NM
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 Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Steelers546 wrote: | | Yikes. I guess this is what we get for restructuring so many contracts. |
10M really isn't a big deal.... but yeah all the restructuring will eventually bite us in the butt.
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Gatoradus
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 1991
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I know when saying this, it may appears too crazy to be true but have anyone thought of this before; Lawrence Timmons were always James Harrison's replacement, not anyone else?
Think about it for a moment.
We got him on field because we wanted 4 best LBs playing on the field. When Harrison/Woodley got hurt, Timmons were practically always the one who substitute.
We drafted Spence, didn't we? He's a lot like Timmons, which wouldn't make any sense to have two similiar players playing ILBs unless... Spence is a future replacement for Timmons as Timmons move to OLB? Timmons, if had a full off-season at OLB, he may be really good, better than what we expect. We will never know until this happen.
I think this makes more sense considering those things; WE didn't expect James Harrison outplaying his expectations and his previous predecessor, Joey Porter. We drafted him as a pass-rushing specialist. Also Timmons aren't that old, he's only what, 25? |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 2587
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Dook wrote: | | Ward4HOF wrote: | | Dook wrote: | I don't know what you two are expecting from Hood. At the 3-4 DE position he's just supposed to be a run stopper, not a pass rusher.
Really, the 3-4 DE position does not warrant a first round pick because the guy only has to have size and strength and not any real ability other than that. I definately disagree that this year is a make or break year for Hood, we wanted to get younger on the DL and not lose anything and that's what he gives us.
One thing I did notice though, Hood's cap hit goes from only $1.6m in 2012 up to a whopping $6.8m in 2013. They're absolutely going to have to renegotiate with him before the 2013 season and give him a new long term deal to reduce that cap amount. |
What?!?! So when a team is in an obvious pasing down, they are there to only stop the run?? That makes no sense. They absolutely can and should provide some pass rush, depending on the situation/scheme. Not all 3-4 Ds are built the same...Yes, typically 5Ts are asked to occupy blockers to allow the LBs to provide the pass rush, but to say they have no pass rush responsibilites is false, if it were, 5Ts wouldn't have any sacks. Your view of the 5T position is extremely narrow-minded...it takes more than size/strength...if that were the case, they'd look for 400 lb guys who can bench 225 40 times. Beleive it or not, there is technique and and role responsibilities to be learned/perfected as well.
And so if Hood maintains his status quo, they are supposed to keep him/play him and not try to upgrade his spot after being in the league 4 years just because he's young? When is his "make or break" year? His contract is up in two years...the FO is likely going to want to decide to want or not want to pay/re-sign him this next off-season, so in my opinion, this is a critical year for him... |
It makes perfect sense. Depending on the play called by Lebeau on passing downs our DE's usually shift outward to block the passing lanes.
They can and should provide some pass rush? Rarely, if ever. You're thinking of the 4-3 defense, like the Giants. Our DE's don't just occupy blockers, they block passing lanes and try to knock down passes.
If our DE's see the QB try to run they will go after him and might get a sack if he is stopped behind the line but they don't go full after the QB full on from the time the ball is hiked.
My view of the 5T is not narrow minded, yours is.
The 3-4 DE is supposed to be as tall as possible (usually 6' 5" and 300 lbs) so he can stand tall in the passing lane to block the quick pass to the slot WR, heavy enough to hold his ground against a guard but not too heavy so he can move quickly enough to catch an RB on a screen.
There is technique to being a 3-4 DE? Not much. They don't play with their hands on the turf, they shift outward and hold their ground. With a 3-4 DE it's not about pad level, it's about getting your hands up.
They're not supposed to try and upgrade Hood? That's like trying to upgrade Ben, it's possible, but pretty much a waste of time and more likely to hurt the team than help.
When is Hood's make or break year? He's doing fine, why not try and fix the problem areas (ILB, future ROLB, S) instead of messing with something that works? |
So thank you for proving my point (red font) that 3-4 DEs are not only "run stoppers" as you originally suggested and do have other roles. They are valuable pieces to a 3-4 D as evidenced by players like Dorsey, Tyson Jackson going top 10 overall, so to say that they don't provide much value and aren't worthy of a 1st Rd pick is incorrect.
And please tell me how I can be narrow-minded when I suggested they do MORE than just stop the run...I never stated that rushing the passer was their sole purpose...I said that they also have that responsibility...and to think the only way a 3-4 DE gets a sack is if the QB tries to run is preposterous...I think Calais Campbell with his 8 sacks and Justin Smith with is 7.5 sacks might have something to say about that...and again, not all 3-4 defenses are built the same. Additionally, just because a team runs a base 3-4, doesn't mean they don't employ other types of packages in different situations, and they don't pull out their DEs every time they run a different package, so just grabbing any old 6'5" 300 lb dude is not going to cut it.
The whole point my response was that you said 3-4 DEs are only run stoppers, which is very "narrow-minded"...they do have to understand and master pass rushing, pass protection, and run defense techniques. Some are better at these techniques or have better abilities in different areas.
Please watch this and look at time hacks 10:08, 10:24, 10:42, 11:23.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCGGVaG2rb8&feature=related
yep, that would Campbell going "full after the QB full on"
And from 1:57 below...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=queHvS6bXV4
oh, look, it's Keisel going "full after the QB full on" in several instances
And here's Justin Smith, another 3-4 DE doing the same
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSyuDc6RJRI&feature=related
So to think that all a 3-4 DE is stand their with hands up at the line in passing situations or that the only way they get sacks is if the QB runs around and gets stopped behind the line is, yep, "narrow-minded"
And to think I'd some how confuse the Giants as having a base 3-4 is ridiculous. If anyone is confused here, it certainly is not me.
And, IMO, this absolutely is a make or break year for Hood. You are suggesting that we will keep him because he's young? Really? We can't find another "young" 3-4 DE? Corbin Bryant is young; Al Woods is young. If anyone of these guys prove to be close to Hood in talent/abilities, who's to say one of them don't beat out Hood for much less cost. I'm not suggesting this is going to happen, just that it could and Hood could very well be upgraded, and it doesn't always take spending a 1st Rd pick to accomplish that. As you stated, Hood is due a lot of money next year...you don't think he wants to collect that and maintain his starting status and get a long term deal next off-season, which, BTW, is often times when our FO prefers to get these deals done...a year before their contract is up. Not saying you have to agree with me, but it's not a surprising concept to think this.
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Dook
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2016
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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3-4 DE's are not only run stoppers, they also sit on the bench for most of the game. Maybe you could post a YouTube video of Brett Keisel sitting on the bench?
Keisel goes full on after a QB? It depends on the play called by Lebeau, it happens, rarely.
What the rest of the video showed was Keisel shifting outward to guard against the run and stand in a passing lane, and sometimes the whole DL goes to the left, sometimes to the right, it just depends on the play called by Lebeau. On the goal line the whole DL goes straight at the OL.
The video also showed Keisel tackling RB's and didn't I say something about 3-4 DE's being run stoppers? I think so... It also showed Keisel knocking down a pass from Drew Brees, didn't I say something about them standing in the passing lanes? Our DE's do get sacks but it's rare because most of the time they have to ensure that it's not a run play and it's not a screen play before they can go after the QB.
Brett Keisel had 3 sacks last season, Hood had 1.5. That's about as bad as it gets, if that was their sole job that is.
Hood's not going anywhere. Just because we could replace him doesn't mean it's very likely. We could replace Ben too, it's just not gonna happen. |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 2587
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Dook wrote: | 3-4 DE's are not only run stoppers, they also sit on the bench for most of the game. Maybe you could post a YouTube video of Brett Keisel sitting on the bench?
Keisel goes full on after a QB? It depends on the play called by Lebeau, it happens, rarely.
What the rest of the video showed was Keisel shifting outward to guard against the run and stand in a passing lane, and sometimes the whole DL goes to the left, sometimes to the right, it just depends on the play called by Lebeau. On the goal line the whole DL goes straight at the OL.
The video also showed Keisel tackling RB's and didn't I say something about 3-4 DE's being run stoppers? I think so...
Yes, actually you did...you said it was ALL they did...
It also showed Keisel knocking down a pass from Drew Brees, didn't I say something about them standing in the passing lanes? Our DE's do get sacks but it's rare because most of the time they have to ensure that it's not a run play and it's not a screen play before they can go after the QB.
Brett Keisel had 3 sacks last season, Hood had 1.5. That's about as bad as it gets, if that was their sole job that is.
Hood's not going anywhere. Just because we could replace him doesn't mean it's very likely. We could replace Ben too, it's just not gonna happen. |
I'm not the one who said this:
"I don't know what you two are expecting from Hood. At the 3-4 DE position he's just supposed to be a run stopper, not a pass rusher.
Really, the 3-4 DE position does not warrant a first round pick because the guy only has to have size and strength and not any real ability other than that."
THEN you decided to finally realize that that is not all a 3-4 DE does...
And I NEVER said that a 3-4 DE's sole job was to rush the passer...
And I NEVER said to cut Hood...when did I EVER say it's likely that we would replace Hood, I merely said that I would rather Heyward replace Hood as a starter, rather than Keisel.
Face it, you are basing arguments on things that were never said, then trying to ignore the fact that you stated that ALL a 3-4 DE was supposed to do was be a run stopper.
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Dook
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2016
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Hood is just supposed to be a run stopper. |
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at23steelers
Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Dook wrote: | | Hood is just supposed to be a run stopper. |
IMO since he's only a run-stopper, why don't the refs just give the opposite teams 3 points every time Hood gets a sack?? I guess he is just disqualified from being able to rush the passer!! |
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Dook
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2016
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Hood just makes sure the Gatorade cups are full. That's it. |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 2587
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Dook wrote: | | Hood just makes sure the Gatorade cups are full. That's it. |
He doesn't have to have any other real ability for that, so he probably doesn't.
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kethnaab
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 6987
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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You guys are killing me. There is a huge difference between a LeBeau 34 and a Philips 34 and even a Capers 34 regarding how the DL are used.
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at23steelers
Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Ward4HOF wrote: | | Dook wrote: | | Hood just makes sure the Gatorade cups are full. That's it. |
He doesn't have to have any other real ability for that, so he probably doesn't. |
So are you saying Ziggy is "hood"rich?? |
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Gatoradus
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 1991
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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and I thought my take on Timmons were very interesting, apparently not.
Seriously, this... Being argumentative about what a kind of player Hood is... Is like discussing what come out of a rabbit hole, it doesn't always has to be a rabbit.
People are so concerned because Hood is replacing Aaron Smith, aka the best 3-4 DE ever to play in NFL or the most underrated DE to ever play the game, either ways we can't expect him to fill out the HOF status (of course, HOF in eyes of Steelers fans) but doesn't necessarily mean Hood can't be better than Smith. He does have the athleticism to do that. Hood is actually more of a pass-rushing D-lineman than a run stuffer but he did that admirably when filling in for Aaron Smith last season then...
Lock-out happened.
We shouldn't take anything into what happened last season (except for who actually played admirably such as Cameron Heyward and Marcus Gilbert, which were a surprise in a good way). We may be evolving as a defense, we started using Nickel package much more, even dimes. We appears to be seeking for a pass-coverage ILB rather than a run-stuffing one, although that's a debateable until next draft.
As far I'm concerned, maybe they have plans for Hood, so what happened last year shouldn't be accounted for but on how Hood display when actually working out like an actual starter, getting proper practicing reps, and maybe he'll display some more of his athleticism if our coaches recognize it and utilitize him and all I can say is I hope for the best because Hood's athleticism is off the chart. |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 2587
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| kethnaab wrote: | | You guys are killing me. There is a huge difference between a LeBeau 34 and a Philips 34 and even a Capers 34 regarding how the DL are used. |
Stop that, no there isn't. 
In all honesty, I think Dook was referring solely to our system and I opened it up to all 3-4 systems, so we were really arguing oranges and apples, to a degree.
So yes, you are right, there is a huge difference in how they man their lines and LBs. Just like a 4-3 has multiple ways to run those systems. But Dook, was meaning the Steelers, and to a degree, he is right about how we empoy or 3-4 DEs as opposed to SF, Houston, AZ, etc. I just took offense when he said that they didn't need to have any other real ability than run defense, and that is incorrect...they do a multitude of different things and there is more to being a 3-4 DE than strength, weight, and height. They are a very valuable foundation to a 3-4 D, regardless of which 3-4 system is run, and they do play a big part in the passing game. They do need to understand and employ different techniques and abilities. I'm no expert, but I know enough to know that they are important to a defense and don't regard them as "2nd class citizens" as it were and can be every bit worth a 1st Rd pick...just like an OG can be if good enough.
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MightyJoeYoung
Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 2650
Location: Wakefield, England
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Dook was blatantly trolling the last two posts.
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FourThreeMafia
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 40070
Location: East of Sixburgh
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Gatoradus wrote: | and I thought my take on Timmons were very interesting, apparently not.
Seriously, this... Being argumentative about what a kind of player Hood is... Is like discussing what come out of a rabbit hole, it doesn't always has to be a rabbit.
People are so concerned because Hood is replacing Aaron Smith, aka the best 3-4 DE ever to play in NFL or the most underrated DE to ever play the game, either ways we can't expect him to fill out the HOF status (of course, HOF in eyes of Steelers fans) but doesn't necessarily mean Hood can't be better than Smith. He does have the athleticism to do that. Hood is actually more of a pass-rushing D-lineman than a run stuffer but he did that admirably when filling in for Aaron Smith last season then...
Lock-out happened.
We shouldn't take anything into what happened last season (except for who actually played admirably such as Cameron Heyward and Marcus Gilbert, which were a surprise in a good way). We may be evolving as a defense, we started using Nickel package much more, even dimes. We appears to be seeking for a pass-coverage ILB rather than a run-stuffing one, although that's a debateable until next draft.
As far I'm concerned, maybe they have plans for Hood, so what happened last year shouldn't be accounted for but on how Hood display when actually working out like an actual starter, getting proper practicing reps, and maybe he'll display some more of his athleticism if our coaches recognize it and utilitize him and all I can say is I hope for the best because Hood's athleticism is off the chart. |
Excellent post.
Hood has alot of potentail and flashed it towards the end of 2010. 2011 he wasnt great, but he still played solid.
As mentioned, many hold him to a higher standard due to who he is replacing and where he was drafted. The draft argument is okay, but anyone who compares him to Aaron Smith is out of their minds, and anyone who expected him (or anyone) to be as good as Demo is out of their mind.
Ziggy is only 25. He has alot of upside still, and its not like he hasnt shown that talent at all. He isnt a Kentwaan Balmer who just blew from the start and never did anything, even though thats the way some Steeler fans seem to view Ziggy....simply because Steeler fans have this "all or nothing" attitude and see things so black and white.
I want to see Ziggy improve, but even if he doesnt, he is still better than a good bit of starting 34 DEs in this league. And no one should be saying that Heyward should replace him until he actually does something. I am one of Heyward's biggest fans on here, but in reality, he shouldnt be given too much credit too soon.
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| cluelessororke wrote: | | I am going to laugh in your face when they don't even sniff WR until day three of the draft |
Still waiting for your laugh.... |
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