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Grasspike
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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For those of you saying Matt Schaub is not a top 10 quarterback, I think you should know that he's TENTH ALL TIME in quarterback rating. He's tied for NINTH ALL TIME in yards per attempt. And he's SEVENTH ALL TIME in completion percentage. These stats are not adjusted for era, but you're still not replacing his production for any kind of reasonable price.
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kenney
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Grasspike wrote: | | For those of you saying Matt Schaub is not a top 10 quarterback, I think you should know that he's TENTH ALL TIME in quarterback rating. He's tied for NINTH ALL TIME in yards per attempt. And he's SEVENTH ALL TIME in completion percentage. These stats are not adjusted for era, but you're still not replacing his production for any kind of reasonable price. |
I think the issue isn't just replacing him for a reasonable price, it's the fact that with those sorts of things in his agent's mind, he's not going to re-sign for a reasonable price, either. Pro-QB rhetoric is at an all-time high, and the prevailing thought says that a great QB transcends other great offensive components and the defense altogether.
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EliteTexan80
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| kenney wrote: | | Grasspike wrote: | | For those of you saying Matt Schaub is not a top 10 quarterback, I think you should know that he's TENTH ALL TIME in quarterback rating. He's tied for NINTH ALL TIME in yards per attempt. And he's SEVENTH ALL TIME in completion percentage. These stats are not adjusted for era, but you're still not replacing his production for any kind of reasonable price. |
I think the issue isn't just replacing him for a reasonable price, it's the fact that with those sorts of things in his agent's mind, he's not going to re-sign for a reasonable price, either. Pro-QB rhetoric is at an all-time high, and the prevailing thought says that a great QB transcends other great offensive components and the defense altogether. |
To play devil's advocate, it isn't as if he doesn't have his flaws: The injury concern alone is enough to get a "discount" on his services, and the belief that the system does work in his favor is also another factor to consider into it. The only team that runs a system that is similar to Houston's system is Washington, and given how much Washington has invested in QB Robert Griffin III, I highly doubt that the 'skins are in the market for a QB.
...granted, they DID burn a 4th rounder on Kirk Cousins, so maybe they are.
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Grasspike
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| kenney wrote: | | Grasspike wrote: | | For those of you saying Matt Schaub is not a top 10 quarterback, I think you should know that he's TENTH ALL TIME in quarterback rating. He's tied for NINTH ALL TIME in yards per attempt. And he's SEVENTH ALL TIME in completion percentage. These stats are not adjusted for era, but you're still not replacing his production for any kind of reasonable price. |
I think the issue isn't just replacing him for a reasonable price, it's the fact that with those sorts of things in his agent's mind, he's not going to re-sign for a reasonable price, either. Pro-QB rhetoric is at an all-time high, and the prevailing thought says that a great QB transcends other great offensive components and the defense altogether. |
What I'm getting at is that you're not going to replace his production for what everyone else seems to want to spend on a QB. Like it or not, we're going to have to set aside 15 mil a year to get a QB capable of taking us to the playoffs, which Matt is.
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EliteTexan80
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Grasspike wrote: | | kenney wrote: | | Grasspike wrote: | | For those of you saying Matt Schaub is not a top 10 quarterback, I think you should know that he's TENTH ALL TIME in quarterback rating. He's tied for NINTH ALL TIME in yards per attempt. And he's SEVENTH ALL TIME in completion percentage. These stats are not adjusted for era, but you're still not replacing his production for any kind of reasonable price. |
I think the issue isn't just replacing him for a reasonable price, it's the fact that with those sorts of things in his agent's mind, he's not going to re-sign for a reasonable price, either. Pro-QB rhetoric is at an all-time high, and the prevailing thought says that a great QB transcends other great offensive components and the defense altogether. |
What I'm getting at is that you're not going to replace his production for what everyone else seems to want to spend on a QB. Like it or not, we're going to have to set aside 15 mil a year to get a QB capable of taking us to the playoffs, which Matt is. |
Tha's one thing I've noticed. People are quick to put Matt on the proverbial chopping block, but...for who? Not like you get many top 15 QBs on the market, not without some major health concern. And if you're pining for TJ Yates to hit the field, you're basically saying "Y'know what? I don't like points on the scoreboard, I'd like to score 10 less points per game..."
It's not as if this Drew Brees/New Orleans thing won't work itself out, and if all goes well, we won't be in a spot to draft Matt Barkley, someone who is about as hit or miss as any future #1 draft pick can be. Barkley isn't a Cam Newton, isn't a Matt Stafford, isn't a Andrew Luck, isn't an RG III. He's probably another version of Sam Bradford, who isn't exactly that great at QB.
So...who? We gonna wait for the Jets to cut one of their two QBs? We gonna wait for the Jags to part ways with either Henne or Gabbert?
If you're going to say "Signing Matt isn't important for next year," then WHO do we bring in? Someone has to take snaps for this team next year.
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kenney
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Grasspike wrote: | | kenney wrote: | | Grasspike wrote: | | For those of you saying Matt Schaub is not a top 10 quarterback, I think you should know that he's TENTH ALL TIME in quarterback rating. He's tied for NINTH ALL TIME in yards per attempt. And he's SEVENTH ALL TIME in completion percentage. These stats are not adjusted for era, but you're still not replacing his production for any kind of reasonable price. |
I think the issue isn't just replacing him for a reasonable price, it's the fact that with those sorts of things in his agent's mind, he's not going to re-sign for a reasonable price, either. Pro-QB rhetoric is at an all-time high, and the prevailing thought says that a great QB transcends other great offensive components and the defense altogether. |
What I'm getting at is that you're not going to replace his production for what everyone else seems to want to spend on a QB. Like it or not, we're going to have to set aside 15 mil a year to get a QB capable of taking us to the playoffs, which Matt is. |
I just realized I forgot to include the last sentence to the post I had typed, which is that, "Unfortunately, Schaub's actual value is less than his market value." I'm not sure how it got left off.
We will pay more than we ought to pay to keep Schaub, but that isn't necessarily a knock on him.
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PAtexansFAN99
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Draft one.. Hell we got Yates in the 5th!
All he needs is a good arm, and a good head on his shoulders and there are SEVERAL QBs who can succeed in this system.
I bet guys like Josh Johnson or Mike Kafka who could probably had for a minimal price in a trade, could come pretty close to matching his production too..
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Apollo Stallion
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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This really is wasted energy on one or two Schaub-haters. Look, I can't stand Kubiak, yet could separate from that enough to recognize that there was no way he was not, not going to be extended this off-season nor would I even argue that at this point we need to give him the opportunity to play out this hand. The Texans are clearly on the verge of a 2-4 year playoff run and you do not ditch your franchise QB for a 5th round rookie when entering such a period.
Texan fans arguing for TJ Yates are as delusional as those that were clamoring for Sage Rosenfels in 2008 because he won 4 games in 07 and they were rewarded with 4 straight losses by him in 08 including the Rosencopter game. As far as I'm concerned, Yates was as responsible for the Ravens loss as Rosenfels was against the Colts as people forget he was responsible for us having a lead to lose with 246 yards on 21/33 passing which is a far cry from 184 yards on 17/35 passing with 3 interceptions including 4 of the ugliest passes of the 2012 season. Trying to whitewash that performance as a rookie going up against a great defense is immaterial if you are advocating for going into that situation ON PURPOSE counting on the fact that TJ Yates trajectory is going upwards, when clearly he got worse in every game last year with the exception of the Bengals game where the defense allowed him to be a spectator protecting a lead while handing to Foster. All Yates is is Caleb Hanie at this point and you didn't see the Bears throw away Cutler for him despite having much more cause to. The blind TJ Yates love around here reminds me of the Dolphins who kept projecting limited sample sizes from backup QBs into starters including: Tyler Thigpen, Cleo Lemon, John Beck, Joey Harrington, Gus Frerrote, Sage, Jay Fiedler, AJ Feeley, Ray Lucas, Damon Huard. At this point Matt Schaub is the Texans Dan Marino and pushing him out the door because he got his foot stomped on the one year our defense wasn't an abomination is absurd.
The simple fact is that the Texans are rolling the dice in a major way by not locking him up now when his leverage is low. I don't disagree as I wouldn't want to lock up an injured player before seeing that he can still get the job done, but it's still a major risk. I think we can at least agree that Schaub is superior to Mark Sanchez and he got a friggin 3 year $58 million extension after a season where they missed the playoffs. If you don't think there will be a market for Schaub after this season you must have missed noodle armed Matt Flynn getting $26 million for 3 years based on 3 starts or the Broncos handing $96 million to a 36 year old Peyton Manning who appears to have clearly lost the zip on his passes after a neck injury and 4 surgeries.
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Apollo Stallion
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| PAtexansFAN99 wrote: | Draft one.. Hell we got Yates in the 5th!
All he needs is a good arm, and a good head on his shoulders and there are SEVERAL QBs who can succeed in this system.
I bet guys like Josh Johnson or Mike Kafka who could probably had for a minimal price in a trade, could come pretty close to matching his production too.. |
You mean like Dan Orlavsky, Rex Grossman, Alex Brink, John David Booty, and Sage here?
Rex Grossman, John Beck, Donovan McNabb, in Washington?
Brian Griese, Danny Kanell, Steve Buerelein, Brad Van Pelt, Patrick Ramsey, Jake Plummer, and Jay Cutler in Denver?
This "system" hasn't won anything since a certain hall of famer named John Elway was running it and Matt Schaub is the second best in history running it with 6 years until he hits 37 when Elway finally got a ring with it.
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Texansfan713
Joined: 24 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| PAtexansFAN99 wrote: | Draft one.. Hell we got Yates in the 5th!
All he needs is a good arm, and a good head on his shoulders and there are SEVERAL QBs who can succeed in this system.
I bet guys like Josh Johnson or Mike Kafka who could probably had for a minimal price in a trade, could come pretty close to matching his production too.. |
That's basically saying we will rebuild. It's not that easy. Sure you can bring up the Bengals who drafted Dalton in round 2 and went to the playoffs their first year, but their schedule was easy. Our best bet is to resign Schaub for a few more years while we are still good, and when his contract is up and if we are bad THEN get his successor. I don't think we will go very far with Yates at QB.
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Grasspike
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| kenney wrote: | | Grasspike wrote: | | kenney wrote: | | Grasspike wrote: | | For those of you saying Matt Schaub is not a top 10 quarterback, I think you should know that he's TENTH ALL TIME in quarterback rating. He's tied for NINTH ALL TIME in yards per attempt. And he's SEVENTH ALL TIME in completion percentage. These stats are not adjusted for era, but you're still not replacing his production for any kind of reasonable price. |
I think the issue isn't just replacing him for a reasonable price, it's the fact that with those sorts of things in his agent's mind, he's not going to re-sign for a reasonable price, either. Pro-QB rhetoric is at an all-time high, and the prevailing thought says that a great QB transcends other great offensive components and the defense altogether. |
What I'm getting at is that you're not going to replace his production for what everyone else seems to want to spend on a QB. Like it or not, we're going to have to set aside 15 mil a year to get a QB capable of taking us to the playoffs, which Matt is. |
I just realized I forgot to include the last sentence to the post I had typed, which is that, "Unfortunately, Schaub's actual value is less than his market value." I'm not sure how it got left off.
We will pay more than we ought to pay to keep Schaub, but that isn't necessarily a knock on him. |
The math in the NFL is changing. We won't pay more than we ought to, because when everyone else pays more than they ought to, more than they ought to becomes the new market price. Quarterbacks are more important now than they ever were, and if you don't have a quarterback that can pile up the yards in a hurry, you'll struggle to make the playoffs, and you sure as heck won't compete for rings. Matt Schaub is one of the guys you can compete with, and if any of y'all think anyone else on the market is interchangeable with Schaub, you need to watch some tape on the available guys.
Kenney, I don't understand your "actual value". To me, his actual value is the production he puts up, which is borderline Pro Bowl-worthy. Just because he would put up less production elsewhere doesn't mean he's any less valuable to the Texans, which is all that matters.
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amazingandre
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes its like talking to a wall to some of you, this is not about REPLACING Schaub, its about prioritizing WHO YOU SIGN FIRST Brown is more important to the long term of our FRANCHISE. He will be here when old Matty hangs them up, he protects the blindside, he is a top 5 player at his position and he is significantly younger. He is the smarter purchase. No where have I said NOT to re-sign Matt so quit crying. I simply think you need to pay Brown and then base Matts contract off what you have left over. Matt would be terrible without Brown, but Brown will still be great with someone else in there at QB. Pay the protector, then pay the qb. Will you people start learning to read through my garbage to get to the facts 
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Apollo Stallion
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| amazingandre wrote: | | Sometimes its like talking to a wall to some of you, this is not about REPLACING Schaub, its about prioritizing WHO YOU SIGN FIRST Brown is more important to the long term of our FRANCHISE. He will be here when old Matty hangs them up, he protects the blindside, he is a top 5 player at his position and he is significantly younger. He is the smarter purchase. No where have I said NOT to re-sign Matt so quit crying. I simply think you need to pay Brown and then base Matts contract off what you have left over. Matt would be terrible without Brown, but Brown will still be great with someone else in there at QB. Pay the protector, then pay the qb. Will you people start learning to read through my garbage to get to the facts |
Okay, as long as we're cycling back to points we made a week ago, I don't recall a response to this point:
| Quote: | | The day an LT is more important than the QB he protects is the day the Dolphins (Jake Long) and Browns (Joe Thomas) make the playoffs behind Chad Henne and Colt McCoy. I grew up with Dan Dierdorf as a perennial Pro Bowler which was great except Jim Hart was the QB he was protecting. The Ravens might have more than 1 Super Bowl if Jonathan Ogden had better QBs to protect. For the record, Duane Brown is a ZBS specific LT who has never been to a Pro Bowl that doesn't belong in the same paragraph as Long or Thomas better yet Ogden or Dierdorf. He's definitely on the verge of being mentioned with the top 6-10 LTs in the league, but not ahead of our QB who is top 10 all-time QBR right now. Remind me who the LTs were for the Giants, Packers, Saints, Steelers, Giants, Colts vs. their QBs the past 6 Super Bowls. I'm probably forgetting about someone, but Ogden may be the last dominant LT for a Super Bowl champ and that was a decade ago now. |
Now that we're up to date, perhaps you could explain to me how "terrible" Matt Schaub was in 2010 with Duane Brown on the sidelines for his steroid suspension and journeyman Rashad Butler easily stepped into his shoes. As a matter of fact we went on a 4 game losing streak immediately after Brown returned. If there is a "product of the system" it's the ZBS and the fact that Duane Brown was a sack allowed machine until Wade Smith got here.
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amazingandre
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Apollo Stallion wrote: | | amazingandre wrote: | | Sometimes its like talking to a wall to some of you, this is not about REPLACING Schaub, its about prioritizing WHO YOU SIGN FIRST Brown is more important to the long term of our FRANCHISE. He will be here when old Matty hangs them up, he protects the blindside, he is a top 5 player at his position and he is significantly younger. He is the smarter purchase. No where have I said NOT to re-sign Matt so quit crying. I simply think you need to pay Brown and then base Matts contract off what you have left over. Matt would be terrible without Brown, but Brown will still be great with someone else in there at QB. Pay the protector, then pay the qb. Will you people start learning to read through my garbage to get to the facts |
Okay, as long as we're cycling back to points we made a week ago, I don't recall a response to this point:
| Quote: | | The day an LT is more important than the QB he protects is the day the Dolphins (Jake Long) and Browns (Joe Thomas) make the playoffs behind Chad Henne and Colt McCoy. I grew up with Dan Dierdorf as a perennial Pro Bowler which was great except Jim Hart was the QB he was protecting. The Ravens might have more than 1 Super Bowl if Jonathan Ogden had better QBs to protect. For the record, Duane Brown is a ZBS specific LT who has never been to a Pro Bowl that doesn't belong in the same paragraph as Long or Thomas better yet Ogden or Dierdorf. He's definitely on the verge of being mentioned with the top 6-10 LTs in the league, but not ahead of our QB who is top 10 all-time QBR right now. Remind me who the LTs were for the Giants, Packers, Saints, Steelers, Giants, Colts vs. their QBs the past 6 Super Bowls. I'm probably forgetting about someone, but Ogden may be the last dominant LT for a Super Bowl champ and that was a decade ago now. |
Now that we're up to date, perhaps you could explain to me how "terrible" Matt Schaub was in 2010 with Duane Brown on the sidelines for his steroid suspension and journeyman Rashad Butler easily stepped into his shoes. As a matter of fact we went on a 4 game losing streak immediately after Brown returned. If there is a "product of the system" it's the ZBS and the fact that Duane Brown was a sack allowed machine until Wade Smith got here. |
First off, in 2010, we were 3-1 because Foster dominated the Colts, we beat a defense WORSE than ours in Washington, in a shoot out, we lost to the Cowboys while Matt threw 2 picks and we barely beat a terrible Oakland team. To consider anything from 2010 relevant is crazy IMO because our team was garbage and we had some stupid injuries and suspensions and our defense was atrocious.
All those super bowl winning teams had Lts who were with their teams for years and are all top 15 at their position. If you want to be ridiculous about it, why not trade Foster and load up with wide outs because all those teams were bad at running the ball when they won their super bowls. Does that mean its not important? LT IMO will always be a high priority, regardless of how much a qb makes or what you say. You do whatever it takes to protect the QB and thus in my mind, you prioritize that first.
And to allude that Wade Smith made Brown better is equally ridiculous. It has more to do with experience gained and more years in the trenches. The guy was getting better every year, we just happened to sign a journey man LG the year he really caught fire.
Might as well trade Brown with Foster because Butler is the better choice and the run game is pointless, isn't that right oh great one?
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texans_uk
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:26 am Post subject: |
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You said you would rather Matt Hasselbeck than Matt Schaub
Your argument is invalid.
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