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Ravens confident that trademark D can survive minus Suggs
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raven5255


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I mean to say is I think Pees' style will more closely resemble Mattison than it will Pagano or Rex Ryan. We'll see how it all plays out, and as Ive already mentioned, he's got the secondary to be aggressive, but from everything Ive heard about Pees, he takes a more conservative approach with maybe a bit more of a read and react defense. At least thats the story from his time in New Englad. That said, Im going purely off second hand knowledge. I have no idea what our defense will really end up being. My concern lies in the fact that we've got a fair amount of change facing the defense this season. Thats not to say we cant overcome it, I think we will in fact, but it still presents an obstacle.

And your right, different personnel dictates different defenses. A good coach takes advantage of his team's strengths and gets the most out of what he has. Like I said, any defense can be successful if the players take to it and if they are embracing Pees' defense and executing it well on the field, we're going to be fine, whether there is a ton of creative blitzing or not.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FlaccoForever wrote:
raven5255 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:


If Peas gets creative and does lots of zone blitzing mixed with stunts and overloads, we should be fine on defense because we have the playmakers in the secondary and we have the intellect at LB and with Ed to recognize things and make sure everything is like it's supposed to be so it's really just a question of "how creative does Dean Peas want to get with our defense, or will he just be like Mattison and (to an extent) Pagano and be pretty vanilla in his schemes"?

We shall find out.


The downside to this is that aside from Ray and Ed, we've got a pretty young defense with 3 new starters in the front 7. And from what I know about Pees, I wouldnt count on seeing many exotic blitzes or formations anyway. I think he's known for taking a more conservative, traditional approach. If thats the case we might be more of a bend but dont break defense. But I agree that we've definitely got the secondary to send some heat, it would be nice if we could take advantage of it.

The transition from Pagano to Pees does have me a bit concerned though. Reminds me a little of the transition from Rex to Mattison. That said, Im certainly willing to give it a chance. You can be successful with any defense if the players take to it and its executed properly.


When will people realize that Mattison had Foxworth, Fabian Washington, Carr, and Frank Walker as his corners. It's hard to be fully aggressive when you have soft mediocre corners. Pees has said that he's not going to dramatically change the defense, he will be aggressive. He certainly has the corners to be aggressive and Webb, Smith and Williams don't shy away from press coverage. The players certainly are giving him more praise than they ever gave Mattison. Some of the players showed up at Pees' and Pagano's intro press conferences, none of them showed up at Mattison's. Pees coached under Belichick, Mattison only had one year of coaching experience in the NFL prior to becoming the Ravens D-Coordinator, does that resonate with any of you.

Mattison also had Josh Wilson (and Cary Williams) who was pretty darn good. Chris Carr had a career year as well. I'm not saying we had world beaters, but clearly we had enough talent to be more agressive than he was in 10'. The 3 man rush was proven ineffective time and time again, yet he refused to switch it up and mix in some blitzes. There's no reason we should have a front 7 as good as ours and ask them to only have 3 guys going after the passer. It would've been different of Mattison would've tried being aggressive and it failed, so he stopped... No, he just didn't do it at all.

I also agree with 5255 about the greater uncertainty we have going from Pagano to Peas, than when Pagano was promoted. I thought Pagano had an incredible track record of having his units overproduce to the talent as well as coaching up talented players. With Peas, he clearly has the experience, but he doesn't quite have the same success to his credit as I saw from Pagano.

I do agree however that we can't yet predict how he'll choose to run our defense. If Peas is simply the "play to your strengths type, then I think we're in good shape and we'll see how aggressive he'll be. I do fear that maybe he's just not naturally an aggressive coach.
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RAVINGMADD


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:

I also agree with 5255 about the greater uncertainty we have going from Pagano to Peas, than when Pagano was promoted. I thought Pagano had an incredible track record of having his units overproduce to the talent as well as coaching up talented players. With Peas, he clearly has the experience, but he doesn't quite have the same success to his credit as I saw from Pagano.

I don't think the difference is that much. Pees coached on some pretty good defenses in New England and has proven experience as a defensive coordinator so really the uncertainty shouldn't be so much. I understand the uncertainty, but I think his track record as a defensive coordinator in New England should give us more of an idea of his ability as a defensive coordinator than Pagano's track record as a secondary coach.

Not to mention, he won a Super Bowl as a linebackers coach on a great defense in New England and it's not like that linebacker core was the most athletically talented group. He did a lot with guys that weren't the most athletically gifted pass rushers and just smart players. I think Kruger and Upshaw can both be that kind of player. Pees might be considered conservative compared to Pagano, but I really don't think we need to worry about another Mattison.
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RAVINGMADD


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raven5255 wrote:
What I mean to say is I think Pees' style will more closely resemble Mattison than it will Pagano or Rex Ryan. We'll see how it all plays out, and as Ive already mentioned, he's got the secondary to be aggressive, but from everything Ive heard about Pees, he takes a more conservative approach with maybe a bit more of a read and react defense. At least thats the story from his time in New Englad. That said, Im going purely off second hand knowledge. I have no idea what our defense will really end up being. My concern lies in the fact that we've got a fair amount of change facing the defense this season. Thats not to say we cant overcome it, I think we will in fact, but it still presents an obstacle.

And your right, different personnel dictates different defenses. A good coach takes advantage of his team's strengths and gets the most out of what he has. Like I said, any defense can be successful if the players take to it and if they are embracing Pees' defense and executing it well on the field, we're going to be fine, whether there is a ton of creative blitzing or not.

Those defense's in New England had to be good for some reason. Maybe he isn't going to be the most aggressive coordinator, but that doesn't mean he's going to be like Mattison. Mattison was a college coordinator before that. At a college like Florida, he doesn't need to be creative with blitzing because he used a 4-3 with defensive players that were usually faster than those playing on the opposing offense. New England was in the top 10 in defense the whole time Pees was coordinator, so he had to be getting pressure some way. I think these comparisons to Mattison are extremely overblown.
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raven5255


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAVINGMADD wrote:

Those defense's in New England had to be good for some reason. Maybe he isn't going to be the most aggressive coordinator, but that doesn't mean he's going to be like Mattison. Mattison was a college coordinator before that. At a college like Florida, he doesn't need to be creative with blitzing because he used a 4-3 with defensive players that were usually faster than those playing on the opposing offense. New England was in the top 10 in defense the whole time Pees was coordinator, so he had to be getting pressure some way. I think these comparisons to Mattison are extremely overblown.


Just to be clear, Im not saying Pees will be a mirror image of Mattison. Like I said if he is flexible, takes advantages of the strength of the team and the players embrace the system, we're going to be fine. However it would be naive to not at least acknowledge the potential similarities in their style.

Keep in mind Pees contract was not renewed after it expired following the 2009 season. He was blamed for an underachieving, overly conservative, vanilla defense. Justified or not, Pees was the scapegoat and a lot of Patriots fans were happy to see him moving on. Sounds a bit familiar to me.

Again, Im just playing both sides here. Im not saying this is going to happen in Baltimore, but its a concern worth keeping in mind.
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RAVINGMADD


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raven5255 wrote:


Just to be clear, Im not saying Pees will be a mirror image of Mattison. Like I said if he is flexible, takes advantages of the strength of the team and the players embrace the system, we're going to be fine. However it would be naive to not at least acknowledge the potential similarities in their style.

Keep in mind Pees contract was not renewed after it expired following the 2009 season. He was blamed for an underachieving, overly conservative, vanilla defense. Justified or not, Pees was the scapegoat and a lot of Patriots fans were happy to see him moving on. Sounds a bit familiar to me.

Again, Im just playing both sides here. Im not saying this is going to happen in Baltimore, but its a concern worth keeping in mind.


But that's the thing, it really wasn't justified. I'd say the turnover in players and the aging vets declining skill had more to do with the defense's decline in '08 and '09. And they certainly weren't horrible defenses, still being top 10 in points allowed even with guys like Vrabel, Bruschi and Harrison at the end of their career. With solid production from those guys they were 4th in points allowed in '07 and 2nd in '06. Pees has a pretty solid track record as a defensive coordinator and I think he has a bit more talent to work with here. The defense will be fine.
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raven5255


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAVINGMADD wrote:


But that's the thing, it really wasn't justified. I'd say the turnover in players and the aging vets declining skill had more to do with the defense's decline in '08 and '09. And they certainly weren't horrible defenses, still being top 10 in points allowed even with guys like Vrabel, Bruschi and Harrison at the end of their career. With solid production from those guys they were 4th in points allowed in '07 and 2nd in '06. Pees has a pretty solid track record as a defensive coordinator and I think he has a bit more talent to work with here. The defense will be fine.


Im not disagreeing with you. You make valid points; like I said, Im just going off what Ive seen and heard, not what I know for myself. But it does seem like Pats fans werent particularly happy with the job Pees did for the reasons already mentioned.

Im no where near panic mode or anything like that, in fact Im looking forward to seeing what the defense will look like. However, I am a bit more concerned about the transition from Pagano to Pees than I was about the transition from Mattison to Pagano, which I think we all knew was going to be a home run. Time will tell and in the meantime Im hoping for the best. Ive seen good things about Pees since he's taken over in the past couple months.
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RAVINGMADD


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raven5255 wrote:
RAVINGMADD wrote:


But that's the thing, it really wasn't justified. I'd say the turnover in players and the aging vets declining skill had more to do with the defense's decline in '08 and '09. And they certainly weren't horrible defenses, still being top 10 in points allowed even with guys like Vrabel, Bruschi and Harrison at the end of their career. With solid production from those guys they were 4th in points allowed in '07 and 2nd in '06. Pees has a pretty solid track record as a defensive coordinator and I think he has a bit more talent to work with here. The defense will be fine.


Im not disagreeing with you. You make valid points; like I said, Im just going off what Ive seen and heard, not what I know for myself. But it does seem like Pats fans werent particularly happy with the job Pees did for the reasons already mentioned.

Im no where near panic mode or anything like that, in fact Im looking forward to seeing what the defense will look like. However, I am a bit more concerned about the transition from Pagano to Pees than I was about the transition from Mattison to Pagano, which I think we all knew was going to be a home run. Time will tell and in the meantime Im hoping for the best. Ive seen good things about Pees since he's taken over in the past couple months.


Well, if we survived the transition of Rex Ryan to Mattison, then I'm sure we can survive the transition of Pagano to Pees. I'm not really concerned at all. And from his track record in New England, he seems more than capable of getting pressure on the QB without a big-time pass rusher like Suggs.

I'm also looking forward to seeing what this defense will look like, especially with Suggs gone surprisingly. It's going to really give Upshaw a chance to shine this year. Then, if Suggs comes back in time and the rest of the team stays relatively healthy, this defense could look really scary going into the playoffs. We are actually going to be set up in a great position to make a run in the playoffs and this injury could end up being a huge reason. I'm pretty excited to see how it all works out. I'm actually way more concerned about Cam Cameron and the offense than any of the transitions on defense.
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