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Rearviewmirror
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
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Location: Koch Arena. Ryknowssd makes BAD sigs
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 Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| onejayhawk wrote: | | bigschmadt00 wrote: | The only way you can say he was not treated like a franchise QB was from the perspective of us not really trying to win those first 3 years. That's the only thing you can say to try and defend not bringing in someone better to push him more. If the answer is you didn't want to force a change before you knew what you had, that's understandable, but that's still being treated like a franchise QB in my mind.
IMO, he for the first time, just this off-season is now not being pushed as the franchise guy, or the only decent option. The addition of Quinn, no matter how lukewarm you are on the guy, is more competition then he's had to date. Couple that with the statements of wanting to get Cassel competition, and the statements about other QB's like Manning and RG3, and IMO he's no longer being pushed out as "the guy." |
That is it in a nutshell. We were looking for a caretaker. A true franchise QB has a veteran backup and an young understudy. Stanzi fits the latter. Quinn is the vet back up, but I see him as a real challenge for the job.
J |
is it not the goal of every NFL team to at least win their division going into every year?? If we weren't trying to win then I'm gonna go find a new team to root for.
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ArrowheadRage58
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Rearviewmirror wrote: | | onejayhawk wrote: | | bigschmadt00 wrote: | The only way you can say he was not treated like a franchise QB was from the perspective of us not really trying to win those first 3 years. That's the only thing you can say to try and defend not bringing in someone better to push him more. If the answer is you didn't want to force a change before you knew what you had, that's understandable, but that's still being treated like a franchise QB in my mind.
IMO, he for the first time, just this off-season is now not being pushed as the franchise guy, or the only decent option. The addition of Quinn, no matter how lukewarm you are on the guy, is more competition then he's had to date. Couple that with the statements of wanting to get Cassel competition, and the statements about other QB's like Manning and RG3, and IMO he's no longer being pushed out as "the guy." |
That is it in a nutshell. We were looking for a caretaker. A true franchise QB has a veteran backup and an young understudy. Stanzi fits the latter. Quinn is the vet back up, but I see him as a real challenge for the job.
J |
is it not the goal of every NFL team to at least win their division going into every year?? If we weren't trying to win then I'm gonna go find a new team to root for. |
Now you know why i've been constantly angry the past 3 years...when you trade for a noodle armed, inaccurate, one read QB with happy feet and treat him like he's so good he can't get beat out, it's obvious you are not trying to win, only HOPING to win.
You may be trying the best you can with what you have, but when the most important position is that bad and you don't have open competition or attempt to bring something better in, that's not really trying to win your division. |
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bigschmadt00
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think Pioli was intentionally not concerned with winning, just that he was trying to win in a certain way (his way) with a long term view point as opposed to a win now mentality. I suppose you could argue he was naive in this approach, or in his general idea that you don't need an elite QB to win a SB, but I don't think you can argue he got Cassel exclusively as just a place holder. I believe he thought Cassel had the potential to be good enough to win a SB, and probably still has some level of faith although I believe it is, and absolutely should be, waning.
For me the mistake is not in the initial approach, and the general idea of taking a shot at Cassel, but rather if he continues down this road after it's painfully obvious it won't work. Whether this mistakes becomes punishable by termination is determined by how long he avoids this truth. If after next years draft we don't have a pretty clear cut guy as our QB, then Pioli will have made an inexcusable mistake IMO. That could be Stanzi, Quinn, I suppose Cassel although unlikely IMO, or some other UFA/Draft Pick. Going into next season we shouldn't be in a truly open competition at the position.
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kylecumberland
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem I have with how Pioli treats Cassel is that he is not looking at it objectively. When defending Cassel he always points to 2008 and 2010 being 10 and 11 win seasons. He always points to misleading Cassel stats rather than the eyeball test. At every other position he evaluates the players based on performance, not based on wins/stats. In 2010 I didn't hear him say Chris Chambers was a 10 win wide receiver, or Leonard Pope was a 10-6 tight end. That would have been silly. Instead he and the scouts and coaches evaluated their play and decided we needed an upgrade. If Pioli ever would have done the same evaluation at quarterback he would have tried to replace Cassel long ago. Instead he refuses to treat Cassel like he has other positions, and it is frustrating. |
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starbarkc
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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I completely agree with bigs. You don't just turn over an entire roster to increase the talent needed to win and keep on winning in a day. Pioli has shown that he is smart enough to know how to put the pieces together and that takes time to accomplish. To say that we were not trying to win is an overstatement. It was more that they knew that the probability of doing so with that roster was very low. Why waste the first few years of a franchise qb career, risking physical injury and psychological detriment while suffering behind a terrible oline, when you can build the team you need anyway. When Stanzi or whomever ascends, we will be glad of the offensive weapons and staunch defense Pioli has assembled so we can overcome the growing pains of that individual.
As far as what the front office says publicly, why they heck would you expect them to undercut their own guys? Maybe they know going in that said player won't be good enough in the future, but that is the best they could get at the time. It makes no sense to erode the confidence and commitment of the team by publicly and indescriminately posing that they suck. We aren't the New York media spotlight and we don't want to be the Jets. |
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kylecumberland
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| It is not that I expect Pioli to throw Matt under the bus. The problem is I fear Pioli has convinced himself matt is really a good QB, and he firmly believes all of the stuff he says to the media about Cassel. I would feel a lot better if I thought Pioli knew Cassel needed to be replaced. |
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PhillyChief
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| kylecumberland wrote: | | It is not that I expect Pioli to throw Matt under the bus. The problem is I fear Pioli has convinced himself matt is really a good QB, and he firmly believes all of the stuff he says to the media about Cassel. I would feel a lot better if I thought Pioli knew Cassel needed to be replaced. |
As stubborn as Pioli is, I don't think he's so naive as to think the QB position is a strength. He did make a push for Manning...manning just had other plans. Other than that, what were his options?
Reaching for a qb in this years draft? Last years draft after Cassel came off a pro-bowl year?
Trading what Washington did (plus way more to jump from 11) for a chance at RG3 and not having a draft when we have a bunch of big time FAs next year?
Overpaying for Orton, who decided he's okay being a backup instead of having the heart to compete?
Overpaying for a free agent? Even if he wanted that...who? Flynn? No way.
Franchise quaterbacks come one way....top 1st round picks. 23 teams employ (or should employ one this year i.e. TN) Dalton was a very early second. Ten Teams have a top 10 pick throwing passes.
If anything, Pioli could be held accountable for the Palco fiasco...but I put that on Todd. Romeo would have started Orton or Stanzi in a heartbeat if he was at the helm. I'm not trying to excuse the guy...but honestly...what other options exist? |
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ArrowheadRage58
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| starbarkc wrote: | I completely agree with bigs. You don't just turn over an entire roster to increase the talent needed to win and keep on winning in a day. Pioli has shown that he is smart enough to know how to put the pieces together and that takes time to accomplish. To say that we were not trying to win is an overstatement. It was more that they knew that the probability of doing so with that roster was very low. Why waste the first few years of a franchise qb career, risking physical injury and psychological detriment while suffering behind a terrible oline, when you can build the team you need anyway. When Stanzi or whomever ascends, we will be glad of the offensive weapons and staunch defense Pioli has assembled so we can overcome the growing pains of that individual.
As far as what the front office says publicly, why they heck would you expect them to undercut their own guys? Maybe they know going in that said player won't be good enough in the future, but that is the best they could get at the time. It makes no sense to erode the confidence and commitment of the team by publicly and indescriminately posing that they suck. We aren't the New York media spotlight and we don't want to be the Jets. |
The problem with that is he paid and treated Cassel like as if he were...if not an elite QB, atleast a legit franchise QB.
Philly, not that I think this would have been the best option this year since I believe in Stanzi, but overpaying for a FA (especially one with potential) is alot better than overpaying for a guy you gave up a high draft pick for (who's skill set and potential was nothing more than to be a caretaker). |
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nicfre2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
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Location: SC
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| ArrowheadRage58 wrote: | | starbarkc wrote: | I completely agree with bigs. You don't just turn over an entire roster to increase the talent needed to win and keep on winning in a day. Pioli has shown that he is smart enough to know how to put the pieces together and that takes time to accomplish. To say that we were not trying to win is an overstatement. It was more that they knew that the probability of doing so with that roster was very low. Why waste the first few years of a franchise qb career, risking physical injury and psychological detriment while suffering behind a terrible oline, when you can build the team you need anyway. When Stanzi or whomever ascends, we will be glad of the offensive weapons and staunch defense Pioli has assembled so we can overcome the growing pains of that individual.
As far as what the front office says publicly, why they heck would you expect them to undercut their own guys? Maybe they know going in that said player won't be good enough in the future, but that is the best they could get at the time. It makes no sense to erode the confidence and commitment of the team by publicly and indescriminately posing that they suck. We aren't the New York media spotlight and we don't want to be the Jets. |
The problem with that is he paid and treated Cassel like as if he were...if not an elite QB, atleast a legit franchise QB.
Philly, not that I think this would have been the best option this year since I believe in Stanzi, but overpaying for a FA (especially one with potential) is alot better than overpaying for a guy you gave up a high draft pick for (who's skill set and potential was nothing more than to be a caretaker). |
Bingo. My big issue is that really before Cassel even had a chance to prove his worth Pioli signed him to a big extension. So fair or not, when a quarterback is paid at an upper-tier level, there will be expectations. Cassel has proven that he does lack upper-tier physical ability and more importantly really seems to lack the necessary composure when the bullets are flying. |
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starbarkc
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 669
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| nicfre2011 wrote: | | ArrowheadRage58 wrote: | | starbarkc wrote: | I completely agree with bigs. You don't just turn over an entire roster to increase the talent needed to win and keep on winning in a day. Pioli has shown that he is smart enough to know how to put the pieces together and that takes time to accomplish. To say that we were not trying to win is an overstatement. It was more that they knew that the probability of doing so with that roster was very low. Why waste the first few years of a franchise qb career, risking physical injury and psychological detriment while suffering behind a terrible oline, when you can build the team you need anyway. When Stanzi or whomever ascends, we will be glad of the offensive weapons and staunch defense Pioli has assembled so we can overcome the growing pains of that individual.
As far as what the front office says publicly, why they heck would you expect them to undercut their own guys? Maybe they know going in that said player won't be good enough in the future, but that is the best they could get at the time. It makes no sense to erode the confidence and commitment of the team by publicly and indescriminately posing that they suck. We aren't the New York media spotlight and we don't want to be the Jets. |
The problem with that is he paid and treated Cassel like as if he were...if not an elite QB, atleast a legit franchise QB.
Philly, not that I think this would have been the best option this year since I believe in Stanzi, but overpaying for a FA (especially one with potential) is alot better than overpaying for a guy you gave up a high draft pick for (who's skill set and potential was nothing more than to be a caretaker). |
Bingo. My big issue is that really before Cassel even had a chance to prove his worth Pioli signed him to a big extension. So fair or not, when a quarterback is paid at an upper-tier level, there will be expectations. Cassel has proven that he does lack upper-tier physical ability and more importantly really seems to lack the necessary composure when the bullets are flying. |
Would everyone feel better if we drafted a qb #1 overall, a kid who is completely unproven, and paid him a lot more than Cassel makes? Let's not pretend that drafting a qb is an automatic success and THE guy for a decade.
The reality is that they paid him like what they expected from him. It happens all the time, especially for a FA or second contract. Maybe they didn't think he would be a franchise guy but didn't want to deal with any questioning of who our qb was going to be. The players know and that is what matters. Where this becomes a problem is when you pick a Grbac over a Gannon, but hindsight is just that. Does anyone think that Cassel's contract has held us back in any way other than bringing in another qb to challenge him? |
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bigschmadt00
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
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Location: Seeing what condition my condition is in
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I guess my question for Nic or Rage is do you view paying him that contract as a mistake? I realize you don't like it today, and I think we all regret paying him that in hindsight, but do you today view paying him that contract as a mistake?
And try to seperate the idea of actually getting Cassel from the contract we gave him. Assume that we were going to get him no matter what, as I view the act of acquiring him different then the contract we gave him.
IMO, we probably had little choice but to pay him that kind of contract, and when looking at what rookies were getting at the time, as well as some rather mediocre vets like David Garrard, I don't think we could have gotten away with much less. So in summary, I don't see the contract itself as a mistake, but rather regretable that we spent that much for a performance well below what was warranted by the investment.
It's kind of parallel in a way to the McCluster pick. While in hindsight it's regretable that we spent a 2nd on a role player, we weren't the only team looking to pick him in the 2nd, so IMO it's less of a mistake and more of something that just hasn't panned out as expected.
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brawl.kc
Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 2042
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| nicfre2011 wrote: | | ArrowheadRage58 wrote: | | starbarkc wrote: | I completely agree with bigs. You don't just turn over an entire roster to increase the talent needed to win and keep on winning in a day. Pioli has shown that he is smart enough to know how to put the pieces together and that takes time to accomplish. To say that we were not trying to win is an overstatement. It was more that they knew that the probability of doing so with that roster was very low. Why waste the first few years of a franchise qb career, risking physical injury and psychological detriment while suffering behind a terrible oline, when you can build the team you need anyway. When Stanzi or whomever ascends, we will be glad of the offensive weapons and staunch defense Pioli has assembled so we can overcome the growing pains of that individual.
As far as what the front office says publicly, why they heck would you expect them to undercut their own guys? Maybe they know going in that said player won't be good enough in the future, but that is the best they could get at the time. It makes no sense to erode the confidence and commitment of the team by publicly and indescriminately posing that they suck. We aren't the New York media spotlight and we don't want to be the Jets. |
The problem with that is he paid and treated Cassel like as if he were...if not an elite QB, atleast a legit franchise QB.
Philly, not that I think this would have been the best option this year since I believe in Stanzi, but overpaying for a FA (especially one with potential) is alot better than overpaying for a guy you gave up a high draft pick for (who's skill set and potential was nothing more than to be a caretaker). |
Bingo. My big issue is that really before Cassel even had a chance to prove his worth Pioli signed him to a big extension. So fair or not, when a quarterback is paid at an upper-tier level, there will be expectations. Cassel has proven that he does lack upper-tier physical ability and more importantly really seems to lack the necessary composure when the bullets are flying. |
Cassel is not a top-paid NFL QB.
I'm sorry, I don't like the guy, either -- but let's use his contract in perspective of Today's Market.
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/quarterback/
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Michael Vick
4. Sam Bradford
T6. Matt Ryan
T6. Matt Stafford
7. Phyllis Rivers
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Jay Cutler
11. Matt Schaub
12. Joe Flacco
13. Josh Freeman
14. Matt Hasselbeck
15. Matt Cassel
While I am one of the biggest Cassel detractors, I think his contract is fair.
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KillaCityChief
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 3315
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| brawl.kc wrote: |
Cassel is not a top-paid NFL QB.
I'm sorry, I don't like the guy, either -- but let's use his contract in perspective of Today's Market.
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/quarterback/
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Michael Vick
4. Sam Bradford
T6. Matt Ryan
T6. Matt Stafford
7. Phyllis Rivers
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Jay Cutler
11. Matt Schaub
12. Joe Flacco
13. Josh Freeman
14. Matt Hasselbeck
15. Matt Cassel
While I am one of the biggest Cassel detractors, I think his contract is fair. |
Exactly. Plus, his contract had most of his guaranteed money up front, so he can be cut with very little penalty if it were to come to that.
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nicfre2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 5303
Location: SC
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| brawl.kc wrote: | | nicfre2011 wrote: | | ArrowheadRage58 wrote: | | starbarkc wrote: | I completely agree with bigs. You don't just turn over an entire roster to increase the talent needed to win and keep on winning in a day. Pioli has shown that he is smart enough to know how to put the pieces together and that takes time to accomplish. To say that we were not trying to win is an overstatement. It was more that they knew that the probability of doing so with that roster was very low. Why waste the first few years of a franchise qb career, risking physical injury and psychological detriment while suffering behind a terrible oline, when you can build the team you need anyway. When Stanzi or whomever ascends, we will be glad of the offensive weapons and staunch defense Pioli has assembled so we can overcome the growing pains of that individual.
As far as what the front office says publicly, why they heck would you expect them to undercut their own guys? Maybe they know going in that said player won't be good enough in the future, but that is the best they could get at the time. It makes no sense to erode the confidence and commitment of the team by publicly and indescriminately posing that they suck. We aren't the New York media spotlight and we don't want to be the Jets. |
The problem with that is he paid and treated Cassel like as if he were...if not an elite QB, atleast a legit franchise QB.
Philly, not that I think this would have been the best option this year since I believe in Stanzi, but overpaying for a FA (especially one with potential) is alot better than overpaying for a guy you gave up a high draft pick for (who's skill set and potential was nothing more than to be a caretaker). |
Bingo. My big issue is that really before Cassel even had a chance to prove his worth Pioli signed him to a big extension. So fair or not, when a quarterback is paid at an upper-tier level, there will be expectations. Cassel has proven that he does lack upper-tier physical ability and more importantly really seems to lack the necessary composure when the bullets are flying. |
Cassel is not a top-paid NFL QB.
I'm sorry, I don't like the guy, either -- but let's use his contract in perspective of Today's Market.
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/quarterback/
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Michael Vick
4. Sam Bradford
T6. Matt Ryan
T6. Matt Stafford
7. Phyllis Rivers
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Jay Cutler
11. Matt Schaub
12. Joe Flacco
13. Josh Freeman
14. Matt Hasselbeck
15. Matt Cassel
While I am one of the biggest Cassel detractors, I think his contract is fair. |
brawl,
You might disagree, but I don't know that using 2012 base salaries to argue your point is the best thing to do. Keep in mind Cassel was franchised by the Patriots then traded to the Chiefs. Pioli then signed him to the following contract :
6 year deal for $63 million, with $28 million guaranteed and $40.5 million in the first three years.
Now the $63 million likely has alot of fluff, but you can't ignore the money he got upfront. So now we are heading into the "reasonable" years of his contract, but the fact remains that for the first three years he made a sizable sum of money, and had a very nice chunk of money guaranteed - all for a player that was still an unknown outside of the Patriot way.
So I still stand by the comment that Pioli paid Cassel like an upper-tier starting quarterback right out of the gate. It was a gamble that IMO hasn't paid off considering the substantial overall financial committment.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4327067 |
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starbarkc
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 669
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| nicfre2011 wrote: | | brawl.kc wrote: | | nicfre2011 wrote: | | ArrowheadRage58 wrote: | | starbarkc wrote: | I completely agree with bigs. You don't just turn over an entire roster to increase the talent needed to win and keep on winning in a day. Pioli has shown that he is smart enough to know how to put the pieces together and that takes time to accomplish. To say that we were not trying to win is an overstatement. It was more that they knew that the probability of doing so with that roster was very low. Why waste the first few years of a franchise qb career, risking physical injury and psychological detriment while suffering behind a terrible oline, when you can build the team you need anyway. When Stanzi or whomever ascends, we will be glad of the offensive weapons and staunch defense Pioli has assembled so we can overcome the growing pains of that individual.
As far as what the front office says publicly, why they heck would you expect them to undercut their own guys? Maybe they know going in that said player won't be good enough in the future, but that is the best they could get at the time. It makes no sense to erode the confidence and commitment of the team by publicly and indescriminately posing that they suck. We aren't the New York media spotlight and we don't want to be the Jets. |
The problem with that is he paid and treated Cassel like as if he were...if not an elite QB, atleast a legit franchise QB.
Philly, not that I think this would have been the best option this year since I believe in Stanzi, but overpaying for a FA (especially one with potential) is alot better than overpaying for a guy you gave up a high draft pick for (who's skill set and potential was nothing more than to be a caretaker). |
Bingo. My big issue is that really before Cassel even had a chance to prove his worth Pioli signed him to a big extension. So fair or not, when a quarterback is paid at an upper-tier level, there will be expectations. Cassel has proven that he does lack upper-tier physical ability and more importantly really seems to lack the necessary composure when the bullets are flying. |
Cassel is not a top-paid NFL QB.
I'm sorry, I don't like the guy, either -- but let's use his contract in perspective of Today's Market.
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/quarterback/
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Michael Vick
4. Sam Bradford
T6. Matt Ryan
T6. Matt Stafford
7. Phyllis Rivers
8. Tony Romo
9. Aaron Rodgers
10. Jay Cutler
11. Matt Schaub
12. Joe Flacco
13. Josh Freeman
14. Matt Hasselbeck
15. Matt Cassel
While I am one of the biggest Cassel detractors, I think his contract is fair. |
brawl,
You might disagree, but I don't know that using 2012 base salaries to argue your point is the best thing to do. Keep in mind Cassel was franchised by the Patriots then traded to the Chiefs. Pioli then signed him to the following contract :
6 year deal for $63 million, with $28 million guaranteed and $40.5 million in the first three years.
Now the $63 million likely has alot of fluff, but you can't ignore the money he got upfront. So now we are heading into the "reasonable" years of his contract, but the fact remains that for the first three years he made a sizable sum of money, and had a very nice chunk of money guaranteed - all for a player that was still an unknown outside of the Patriot way.
So I still stand by the comment that Pioli paid Cassel like an upper-tier starting quarterback right out of the gate. It was a gamble that IMO hasn't paid off considering the substantial overall financial committment.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4327067 |
But Cassel had been franchised. The point of doing so by the Patriots is leverage, not only for them but for Cassel. It seems to me that our three choices were to:
a)not rework the contract, pay him way way way more than he was worth for a shorter contract that. the hope would be that he would suck and we would then have leverage to rework after his first season with us. this is risky for many reasons.
b)settle on something that makes both sides happy enough to move on and work towards making the team into a winner which is what we did.
c)find someone else. Except any reasonable person in Pioli's position would go for the safest horse, the one who he knew what he was getting. someone else is unknown to a far larger degree and Cassel will be a good soldier.
My argument is that Cassel was the best option at the time given our situation then and where we wanted to go. I felt after the season ended that we needed to make a move on the qb position this year, and perhaps they tried, but I have no issues with the route we took to deepen the roster. We have a good chance to do some damage despite Cassel and we will be set to be done with him after this season. If we don't make a move after the upcoming season, then I will absolutely question the motives of the front office. |
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