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GRADE THE DRAFT: CBs
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GRADE?
A
25%
 25%  [ 3 ]
B
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
C
25%
 25%  [ 3 ]
D
33%
 33%  [ 4 ]
F
16%
 16%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 12

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The_Slamman


Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: GRADE THE DRAFT: CBs Reply with quote

I said before, things would start to get interesting on defense. Since Jimmy Johnson, the Cowboys have drafted 23 CBs which is, by far, the most of any position. Here is the list...


1. Charlie Williams
2. Alundis Brice
3. Wendell Davis
4. Lee Vaughn
5. Dwayne Goodrich
6. Kareem Larrimore
7. Mario Edwards
8. Derek Ross
9. Pete Hunter
10. Terence Newman
11. B.J. Tucker
12. Bruce Thornton
13. Nathan Jones
14. Jacques Reeves
15. Courtney Brown
16. Alan Ball
17. Mike Jenkins
18. Orlando Scandrick
19. DeAngelo Smith
20. Mike Mickens
21. Jamar Wall
22. Josh Thomas
23. Morris Claiborne

Again, bold players indicate that they were drafted in the first 3 rounds. Obviously, it's too early to judge Morris Claiborne but he must be included as the question is how well has the organization replenished the position through the draft.

Terrence Newman obviously gave the Cowboys 7 good years (a couple of which were exceptional) and 2 Alan Ball-esque years. Mike Jenkins has give the Cowboys 1.5 good years (one of which was exceptional), 1 terrible year, .5 injured and/or slowed down by injury year, and we'll give him a pass on his rookie year. Other than those 2 (and hopefully Claiborne), the CB position has been the Cowboys achilles heel for many, many years. It is amazing to me to see how few players actually panned out with all of the resources dedicated to the position. The only year where 2 drafted CBs actually played well in the same year is 2009. Despite spending 23 draft picks on the position, the organization has still be forced to resort to bring in multiple high priced FAs to address the position. This raises the question... is this a scouting issue or a coaching issue? both?

Regardless, how well has the organization replenished the position through the draft?
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htfryar


Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 8256
Location: Hot Springs, Arkansas
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Charlie Williams - D
2. Alundis Brice - D
3. Wendell Davis - D
4. Lee Vaughn - F
5. Dwayne Goodrich - F
6. Kareem Larrimore - F
7. Mario Edwards - C
8. Derek Ross - D
9. Pete Hunter - C
10. Terence Newman - A
11. B.J. Tucker - F
12. Bruce Thornton - F
13. Nathan Jones - D
14. Jacques Reeves - D
15. Courtney Brown - F
16. Alan Ball - D
17. Mike Jenkins - B
18. Orlando Scandrick - C
19. DeAngelo Smith - F
20. Mike Mickens - F
21. Jamar Wall - F
22. Josh Thomas - F
23. Morris Claiborne - N/A

20/22 = .90 = F
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boysday23


Joined: 30 Jan 2010
Posts: 767
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone gave this group an "A".... Laughing. But in all seriousness, I think if we do this in the future we need a slightly altered grading system to grade by. Some people, it seems, are almost valuing the group of players evenly instead of Terence Newmans grades are the same as Mike Jenkins grades since they where drafted in the same round, and their grades count more towards the overall score than Orlando who was drafted later. I'm probably not making much sense, but just throwing my 2 cents in. Cool
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Nextyearfordaboyz


Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 16206
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

htfryar wrote:
1. Charlie Williams - D
2. Alundis Brice - D
3. Wendell Davis - D
4. Lee Vaughn - F
5. Dwayne Goodrich - F
6. Kareem Larrimore - F
7. Mario Edwards - C
8. Derek Ross - D
9. Pete Hunter - C
10. Terence Newman - A
11. B.J. Tucker - F
12. Bruce Thornton - F
13. Nathan Jones - D
14. Jacques Reeves - D
15. Courtney Brown - F
16. Alan Ball - D
17. Mike Jenkins - B
18. Orlando Scandrick - C
19. DeAngelo Smith - F
20. Mike Mickens - F
21. Jamar Wall - F
22. Josh Thomas - F
23. Morris Claiborne - N/A

20/22 = .90 = F


How does weighting every pick equally make any sense? That missing on Alan Ball in the 7th round should be weighted as heavily as hitting on Newman in the top-5?
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boysday23


Joined: 30 Jan 2010
Posts: 767
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nextyearfordaboyz wrote:
htfryar wrote:
1. Charlie Williams - D
2. Alundis Brice - D
3. Wendell Davis - D
4. Lee Vaughn - F
5. Dwayne Goodrich - F
6. Kareem Larrimore - F
7. Mario Edwards - C
8. Derek Ross - D
9. Pete Hunter - C
10. Terence Newman - A
11. B.J. Tucker - F
12. Bruce Thornton - F
13. Nathan Jones - D
14. Jacques Reeves - D
15. Courtney Brown - F
16. Alan Ball - D
17. Mike Jenkins - B
18. Orlando Scandrick - C
19. DeAngelo Smith - F
20. Mike Mickens - F
21. Jamar Wall - F
22. Josh Thomas - F
23. Morris Claiborne - N/A

20/22 = .90 = F


How does weighting every pick equally make any sense? That missing on Alan Ball in the 7th round should be weighted as heavily as hitting on Newman in the top-5?


My point exactly! Idea
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The_Slamman


Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nextyearfordaboyz wrote:
htfryar wrote:
1. Charlie Williams - D
2. Alundis Brice - D
3. Wendell Davis - D
4. Lee Vaughn - F
5. Dwayne Goodrich - F
6. Kareem Larrimore - F
7. Mario Edwards - C
8. Derek Ross - D
9. Pete Hunter - C
10. Terence Newman - A
11. B.J. Tucker - F
12. Bruce Thornton - F
13. Nathan Jones - D
14. Jacques Reeves - D
15. Courtney Brown - F
16. Alan Ball - D
17. Mike Jenkins - B
18. Orlando Scandrick - C
19. DeAngelo Smith - F
20. Mike Mickens - F
21. Jamar Wall - F
22. Josh Thomas - F
23. Morris Claiborne - N/A

20/22 = .90 = F


How does weighting every pick equally make any sense? That missing on Alan Ball in the 7th round should be weighted as heavily as hitting on Newman in the top-5?


Personally, I'm a lot more concerned with him giving Alan Ball getting a D grade. My powers of manipulation are clearly wanting.
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Quote from May 7, 2013...

MaddHatter wrote:
Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was.


On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys.
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The_Slamman


Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boysday23 wrote:
Nextyearfordaboyz wrote:
htfryar wrote:
1. Charlie Williams - D
2. Alundis Brice - D
3. Wendell Davis - D
4. Lee Vaughn - F
5. Dwayne Goodrich - F
6. Kareem Larrimore - F
7. Mario Edwards - C
8. Derek Ross - D
9. Pete Hunter - C
10. Terence Newman - A
11. B.J. Tucker - F
12. Bruce Thornton - F
13. Nathan Jones - D
14. Jacques Reeves - D
15. Courtney Brown - F
16. Alan Ball - D
17. Mike Jenkins - B
18. Orlando Scandrick - C
19. DeAngelo Smith - F
20. Mike Mickens - F
21. Jamar Wall - F
22. Josh Thomas - F
23. Morris Claiborne - N/A

20/22 = .90 = F


How does weighting every pick equally make any sense? That missing on Alan Ball in the 7th round should be weighted as heavily as hitting on Newman in the top-5?


My point exactly! Idea


People are asked to grade the group as a whole to determine how effectively the organization has replenished the position through the draft. If the want to add up the some of the parts to make the whole, that's okay. But, specifically, the purpose is to look at the big picture of the entire group.
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Quote from May 7, 2013...

MaddHatter wrote:
Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was.


On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys.
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htfryar


Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 8256
Location: Hot Springs, Arkansas
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
boysday23 wrote:
Nextyearfordaboyz wrote:
htfryar wrote:
1. Charlie Williams - D
2. Alundis Brice - D
3. Wendell Davis - D
4. Lee Vaughn - F
5. Dwayne Goodrich - F
6. Kareem Larrimore - F
7. Mario Edwards - C
8. Derek Ross - D
9. Pete Hunter - C
10. Terence Newman - A
11. B.J. Tucker - F
12. Bruce Thornton - F
13. Nathan Jones - D
14. Jacques Reeves - D
15. Courtney Brown - F
16. Alan Ball - D
17. Mike Jenkins - B
18. Orlando Scandrick - C
19. DeAngelo Smith - F
20. Mike Mickens - F
21. Jamar Wall - F
22. Josh Thomas - F
23. Morris Claiborne - N/A

20/22 = .90 = F


How does weighting every pick equally make any sense? That missing on Alan Ball in the 7th round should be weighted as heavily as hitting on Newman in the top-5?


My point exactly! :idea:


People are asked to grade the group as a whole to determine how effectively the organization has replenished the position through the draft. If the want to add up the some of the parts to make the whole, that's okay. But, specifically, the purpose is to look at the big picture of the entire group.


The big picture is that we have sucked for years at the CB position. In the last 10 years, we have had some of the worst CB play of any team in the league. No matter how you come up with your grade, and there really is no wrong way to grade the position as a whole, if you gave them anything higher than a D, you are a blind homer.
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boysday23


Joined: 30 Jan 2010
Posts: 767
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

htfryar wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
boysday23 wrote:
Nextyearfordaboyz wrote:
htfryar wrote:
1. Charlie Williams - D
2. Alundis Brice - D
3. Wendell Davis - D
4. Lee Vaughn - F
5. Dwayne Goodrich - F
6. Kareem Larrimore - F
7. Mario Edwards - C
8. Derek Ross - D
9. Pete Hunter - C
10. Terence Newman - A
11. B.J. Tucker - F
12. Bruce Thornton - F
13. Nathan Jones - D
14. Jacques Reeves - D
15. Courtney Brown - F
16. Alan Ball - D
17. Mike Jenkins - B
18. Orlando Scandrick - C
19. DeAngelo Smith - F
20. Mike Mickens - F
21. Jamar Wall - F
22. Josh Thomas - F
23. Morris Claiborne - N/A

20/22 = .90 = F


How does weighting every pick equally make any sense? That missing on Alan Ball in the 7th round should be weighted as heavily as hitting on Newman in the top-5?


My point exactly! Idea


People are asked to grade the group as a whole to determine how effectively the organization has replenished the position through the draft. If the want to add up the some of the parts to make the whole, that's okay. But, specifically, the purpose is to look at the big picture of the entire group.


The big picture is that we have sucked for years at the CB position. In the last 10 years, we have had some of the worst CB play of any team in the league.No matter how you come up with your grade, and there really is no wrong way to grade the position as a whole, if you gave them anything higher than a D, you are a blind homer.


Agreed on that. I gave it a D-, borderline F, but had to look at the context of the picks and where the team was at as far as corners go.
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TheStarStillShines


Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 8260
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first few years were awful, just brutally awful. The team, though, has taken a few good CBs in the past 10 years, and it's not a coincidence that they coincided with BP as HC.

It would be interesting to see how the team has drafted under different coaching regimes. I think we can all guess what the outcome would be, but it would still be interesting to see the variation in draft philosophy from coach to coach.
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plan9misfit


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would give us a C here. We've had some successful guys in Newman, Jenkins, Mario Edwards (early on), Derek Ross (before he lost him mind), and Scandrick relative to their draft slots, but we've missed on a slew of guys. And a lot of it is because we can't evaluate players and are obsessed with the notion that a poor pass rush is compensated for by having a ton of DBs.
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It's like we are in a win now mentality with lose now personnel.
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The_Slamman


Joined: 07 Feb 2005
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Location: Las Vegas, NV
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before we move on to the next position, I wanted to analyze the CBs a little bit more. There have been 23 CBs drafted. Can we narrow it down to the top 5?

Who are the top 5 CBs drafted that have actually played so far? I think everyone agrees that TNew is number 1. Most would probably agree that Mike Jenkins is number 2. Who are 3-5???

1. Terrence Newman
2. Mike Jenkins
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???


What are your guys thoughts?
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Quote from May 7, 2013...

MaddHatter wrote:
Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was.


On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys.
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SHSTE92


Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 2822
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Before we move on to the next position, I wanted to analyze the CBs a little bit more. There have been 23 CBs drafted. Can we narrow it down to the top 5?

Who are the top 5 CBs drafted that have actually played so far? I think everyone agrees that TNew is number 1. Most would probably agree that Mike Jenkins is number 2. Who are 3-5???

1. Terrence Newman
2. Mike Jenkins
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???


What are your guys thoughts?


3. Scandrick
4. Edwards
5. Ross/Hunter

Some of the other guys had value, but just never developed. Edwards, Hunter and Ross showed promise, but never ended up being much of anything. I was a huge Hunter fan too, hoped he would have progressed better then he did Sad
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WareWolf94


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 5296
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boysday23 wrote:
Nextyearfordaboyz wrote:
htfryar wrote:
1. Charlie Williams - D
2. Alundis Brice - D
3. Wendell Davis - D
4. Lee Vaughn - F
5. Dwayne Goodrich - F
6. Kareem Larrimore - F
7. Mario Edwards - C
8. Derek Ross - D
9. Pete Hunter - C
10. Terence Newman - A
11. B.J. Tucker - F
12. Bruce Thornton - F
13. Nathan Jones - D
14. Jacques Reeves - D
15. Courtney Brown - F
16. Alan Ball - D
17. Mike Jenkins - B
18. Orlando Scandrick - C
19. DeAngelo Smith - F
20. Mike Mickens - F
21. Jamar Wall - F
22. Josh Thomas - F
23. Morris Claiborne - N/A

20/22 = .90 = F


How does weighting every pick equally make any sense? That missing on Alan Ball in the 7th round should be weighted as heavily as hitting on Newman in the top-5?


My point exactly! Idea


Thats why I choose not to participate in this hogwash. And I can't believe other people are dense enough to grade the same way. Like I said, if you're grading the draft, go year by year.
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The_Slamman


Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHSTE92 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Before we move on to the next position, I wanted to analyze the CBs a little bit more. There have been 23 CBs drafted. Can we narrow it down to the top 5?

Who are the top 5 CBs drafted that have actually played so far? I think everyone agrees that TNew is number 1. Most would probably agree that Mike Jenkins is number 2. Who are 3-5???

1. Terrence Newman
2. Mike Jenkins
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???


What are your guys thoughts?


3. Scandrick
4. Edwards
5. Ross/Hunter

Some of the other guys had value, but just never developed. Edwards, Hunter and Ross showed promise, but never ended up being much of anything. I was a huge Hunter fan too, hoped he would have progressed better then he did Sad


Does everybody agree with this? Out of 23 draft picks, is Scandrick really the third best?
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Quote from May 7, 2013...

MaddHatter wrote:
Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was.


On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys.
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