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spilltray
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 8654
Location: Green Bay, WI
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| th87 wrote: | | spilltray wrote: | | Ketchup wrote: | | Pugger wrote: | | byzr wrote: | | out jail doesn't mean he'll just get to walk back into the NFL. he's been a persistent problem for himself and the league. i wish him luck. |
If Goodell gave guys like Vick and Burris a second chance, why not Jolly? |
Vicki who killed dogs and gambled illegally. Stallworth who killed a man while intoxicated. If guys like that get a second chance, Jolly definitely will after only drinking illegal stuff. It may notbe in GB but he will get reinstated, that I'm sure of. |
Jolly was already on his second chance and got popped again. He had a 1 year suspension and was applying for reinstatement when he got arrested the last time and got it bumped up to indefinite. I wouldn't assume he'll get ANOTHER chance. |
This isn't repeated PED offenses - things you have control over. Rather, this is an addiction. Addictions can't be deterred that way. |
It doesn't matter. He's been given multiple chances and screwed up multiple times. Regardless of the reason, why would you expect he can keep everything under control and not screw up THIS time? If anything there is LESS of an expectation for him to "turn it around".
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th87
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 317
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| spilltray wrote: | | th87 wrote: | | spilltray wrote: | | Ketchup wrote: | | Pugger wrote: | | byzr wrote: | | out jail doesn't mean he'll just get to walk back into the NFL. he's been a persistent problem for himself and the league. i wish him luck. |
If Goodell gave guys like Vick and Burris a second chance, why not Jolly? |
Vicki who killed dogs and gambled illegally. Stallworth who killed a man while intoxicated. If guys like that get a second chance, Jolly definitely will after only drinking illegal stuff. It may notbe in GB but he will get reinstated, that I'm sure of. |
Jolly was already on his second chance and got popped again. He had a 1 year suspension and was applying for reinstatement when he got arrested the last time and got it bumped up to indefinite. I wouldn't assume he'll get ANOTHER chance. |
This isn't repeated PED offenses - things you have control over. Rather, this is an addiction. Addictions can't be deterred that way. |
It doesn't matter. He's been given multiple chances and screwed up multiple times. Regardless of the reason, why would you expect he can keep everything under control and not screw up THIS time? If anything there is LESS of an expectation for him to "turn it around". |
I don't know if he will or won't. I'm just saying that now it's been established that he had been suffering from an addiction (and not simply ignoring Goodell's punishments), his case should be treated as someone who needed help (and got it), rather than as a jerk who doesn't care about Goodell.
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TedThompson
Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like Jolly, and I think some fans have revisionist history thinking back to Jolly, like he was great or something.
Last memory I have of him was the 2009 season Vikings @ Packers game, the Farve @ Rodgers game, with the Packers battling back from a deep hole the defense let us get in.
And the Packers made a rare, key 3rd down stop.... but Jolly went "street" and got a after-the-play personal foul call, giving the Vikings another chance and first down. And they scored a TD.... basically ending that rally.
He never could get to QBs, instead would always be stalemated at the LOS and just stay there and try and swat balls down. He did have more of those than anyone, but he'd get one like every 3 games..... that's not enough production. True, it's better than what Mike Neal has given us.
Jolly was solid vs the run though. But even if given another chance with us, I'd say he's about 9th on the depth chart at best.
You can't trust this guy.... cutting someone else and relying on him.
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spilltray
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 8654
Location: Green Bay, WI
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| th87 wrote: | | spilltray wrote: | | th87 wrote: | | spilltray wrote: | | Ketchup wrote: | | Pugger wrote: | | byzr wrote: | | out jail doesn't mean he'll just get to walk back into the NFL. he's been a persistent problem for himself and the league. i wish him luck. |
If Goodell gave guys like Vick and Burris a second chance, why not Jolly? |
Vicki who killed dogs and gambled illegally. Stallworth who killed a man while intoxicated. If guys like that get a second chance, Jolly definitely will after only drinking illegal stuff. It may notbe in GB but he will get reinstated, that I'm sure of. |
Jolly was already on his second chance and got popped again. He had a 1 year suspension and was applying for reinstatement when he got arrested the last time and got it bumped up to indefinite. I wouldn't assume he'll get ANOTHER chance. |
This isn't repeated PED offenses - things you have control over. Rather, this is an addiction. Addictions can't be deterred that way. |
It doesn't matter. He's been given multiple chances and screwed up multiple times. Regardless of the reason, why would you expect he can keep everything under control and not screw up THIS time? If anything there is LESS of an expectation for him to "turn it around". |
I don't know if he will or won't. I'm just saying that now it's been established that he had been suffering from an addiction (and not simply ignoring Goodell's punishments), his case should be treated as someone who needed help (and got it), rather than as a jerk who doesn't care about Goodell. |
My point is just that using examples like Plaxico Burress, Michael Vick, and Donte Stallworth as reasons to assume Jolly will get a "second chance" isn't good logic because Jolly has already had his second chance. How many of those guys got 3rd or 4th chances? That's where Jolly is and given that, I wouldn't expect him to automatically get another one. His personal issues and the reasons for his problems are rather irrelevant. He's screwed up on the same thing repeatedly and as such I wouldn't expect it likely for him to get another shot.
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| Wilfred wrote: | | Memory is like the Packers when they are behind by two touchdowns in the 4th quarter... It comes back. |
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th87
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 317
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Completely different scenarios. You don't think that a former addict trying to get clean warrants a different review from someone running a dogfighting/gambling operation, or a repeat offender starting fights at strip clubs?
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spilltray
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 8654
Location: Green Bay, WI
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| th87 wrote: | | Completely different scenarios. You don't think that a former addict trying to get clean warrants a different review from someone running a dogfighting/gambling operation, or a repeat offender starting fights at strip clubs? |
I'm all for second chances, but no, I don't care the reasoning, once you have blown that second chance, and possibly a 3rd, you don't keep getting more just because you have a (good or bad) excuse. Say Plaxico Burress did something else incredibly dumb that hurt himself but no one else and got himself in jail. Is stupidity a valid excuse why he should get a 3rd chance? He's had more than 2 chances. He was suspended for 1 year. While in the process of getting reinstated following that one year, he was immediately arrested again, and got an indefinite suspension. Before his trial, he was arrested a 3rd time.
He has shown a repeated pattern of behavior with no real reason to believe if given another shot he wouldn't fall right back into the same habits again. Maybe after staying clean and no arrests in a year OUTSIDE of jail, you could make the argument that he's shown he's actually making changes, but just because he's served his sentence and went through whatever jailhouse rehab program doesn't mean he's "turned things around".
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| Wilfred wrote: | | Memory is like the Packers when they are behind by two touchdowns in the 4th quarter... It comes back. |
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68md
Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ajhawk5047"] | 68md wrote: | OK you drafted a DE/DT in Worthy that you want to start and have excel, you have several young studs like CJ Wilson and Lawrence Guy.
Young studs? Come on now....
Guy hasn't even played, so you can't really call him much of anything.
Wilson is anything but a "stud". He's not bad, but he isn't overly impressive.
IF Jolly even is brought back to the league, then I would like to at least try him out and see how he's doing. He seems like a good guy at heart, he just made some bad choices. |
Per pro football focus CJ Wilson ranked sixth among 3-4 DEs in run-stop percentage last season.... had 7 batted pass's as well but hey let's cut him and bring back a guy from 2009.
All we did since then is win a SB (WITHOUT HIM ) and go 15-1 the following year.
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AlexGreen#20
Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 878
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="68md"] | ajhawk5047 wrote: | | 68md wrote: | OK you drafted a DE/DT in Worthy that you want to start and have excel, you have several young studs like CJ Wilson and Lawrence Guy.
Young studs? Come on now....
Guy hasn't even played, so you can't really call him much of anything.
Wilson is anything but a "stud". He's not bad, but he isn't overly impressive.
IF Jolly even is brought back to the league, then I would like to at least try him out and see how he's doing. He seems like a good guy at heart, he just made some bad choices. |
Per pro football focus CJ Wilson ranked sixth among 3-4 DEs in run-stop percentage last season.... had 7 batted pass's as well but hey let's cut him and bring back a guy from 2009.
All we did since then is win a SB (WITHOUT HIM ) and go 15-1 the following year. |
CJ Wilson is the very definition of "just a guy". There are dozens of CJ Wilson's available if at any point we need a below average 34 End |
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spilltray
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 8654
Location: Green Bay, WI
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| AlexGreen#20 wrote: | | CJ Wilson is the very definition of "just a guy". There are dozens of CJ Wilson's available if at any point we need a below average 34 End |
Yup and one of them is named Johnny Jolly.
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| Wilfred wrote: | | Memory is like the Packers when they are behind by two touchdowns in the 4th quarter... It comes back. |
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AlexGreen#20
Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 878
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| spilltray wrote: | | AlexGreen#20 wrote: | | CJ Wilson is the very definition of "just a guy". There are dozens of CJ Wilson's available if at any point we need a below average 34 End |
Yup and one of them is named Johnny Jolly. |
I'll agree to an extent, because I don't know what Jolly looks like now, but the Jolly of old was more than "just a guy". He wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination, but he was decent. He was a pretty good run stuffer who was smart enough to know he was never getting home on a QB, so he put his hands in the air on passing downs and batted a few balls. |
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th87
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 317
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Why draft anybody? We won a Super Bowl without them.
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th87
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| spilltray wrote: | | th87 wrote: | | Completely different scenarios. You don't think that a former addict trying to get clean warrants a different review from someone running a dogfighting/gambling operation, or a repeat offender starting fights at strip clubs? |
I'm all for second chances, but no, I don't care the reasoning, once you have blown that second chance, and possibly a 3rd, you don't keep getting more just because you have a (good or bad) excuse. Say Plaxico Burress did something else incredibly dumb that hurt himself but no one else and got himself in jail. Is stupidity a valid excuse why he should get a 3rd chance? He's had more than 2 chances. He was suspended for 1 year. While in the process of getting reinstated following that one year, he was immediately arrested again, and got an indefinite suspension. Before his trial, he was arrested a 3rd time.
He has shown a repeated pattern of behavior with no real reason to believe if given another shot he wouldn't fall right back into the same habits again. Maybe after staying clean and no arrests in a year OUTSIDE of jail, you could make the argument that he's shown he's actually making changes, but just because he's served his sentence and went through whatever jailhouse rehab program doesn't mean he's "turned things around". |
Plaxico Burress should not be used here. Addiction is a physical ailment that causes changes in brain chemistry. An illness. If someone can't play because of an illness, wouldn't it be fair to bring him back if he thinks he got over that illness?
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spilltray
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 8654
Location: Green Bay, WI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| th87 wrote: | | Plaxico Burress should not be used here. Addiction is a physical ailment that causes changes in brain chemistry. An illness. If someone can't play because of an illness, wouldn't it be fair to bring him back if he thinks he got over that illness? |
Not really. You still get to the point where he's had multiple chance. At some point you run out, regardless if you have an excuse for it. I don't care what your stance on addiction is, it's not an excuse to get a carte blanche on as many screweups as you want.
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| Wilfred wrote: | | Memory is like the Packers when they are behind by two touchdowns in the 4th quarter... It comes back. |
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Pugger
Joined: 01 May 2010
Posts: 4350
Location: N. Fort Myers, FL
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| th87 wrote: | | Why draft anybody? We won a Super Bowl without them. |
I know you were being facetious but this argument always bugs me. You can never have to many good players, I'm not saying Jolly is still any good but if he is reinstated it wouldn't hurt to take a look-see.
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th87
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 317
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| spilltray wrote: | | th87 wrote: | | Plaxico Burress should not be used here. Addiction is a physical ailment that causes changes in brain chemistry. An illness. If someone can't play because of an illness, wouldn't it be fair to bring him back if he thinks he got over that illness? |
Not really. You still get to the point where he's had multiple chance. At some point you run out, regardless if you have an excuse for it. I don't care what your stance on addiction is, it's not an excuse to get a carte blanche on as many screweups as you want. |
If those screwups were a result of a previously undiagnosed illness, I don't see how it would be fair to deny his return once the illness has been diagnosed and treated (presumably).
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