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GaTechRavens


Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 17745
Location: Madison, WI
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DontTazeMeBro wrote:
As far as I know, the Lions haven't had a 16 game starter at QB until 2011. It's pretty much been a revolving door. And the QBs that were there weren't NFL caliber QBs. They were also near the bottom of the league in sacks allowed until 2010.


Those non-NFL caliber QBs played WORSE when they played in Detroit with Calvin Johnson. You can't explain that away. If he's the difference maker people are claiming him to be, that's inexcusable.

And it's not like those other QBs were playing better on great teams.

Daunte Culpepper - played the worst football of his career in 2008 and 2009, regressing from his Miami and Oakland stints

Dan Orlovsky - played better football in Indy last season than he ever did in Detroit

Jon Kitna - played three years in Detroit with his worst occurring when Calvin broke out (2008), played better in Seattle, Cincy and Dallas than he did in Detroit

Shaun Hill - played better in San Francisco than he did in 2010 with Detroit

Seriously, isn't this pretty much a smoking gun? In order to claim that he can lift a QB to a ridiculous extent, there needs to be some hard evidence proving it. The only evidence we do have (how the QBs played on other teams) indicates literally the exact opposite of that. Does that mean Calvin is detrimental to his QB? Absolutely not. Does it mean he isn't making the impact people think he is? Yes, beyond a shadow of doubt.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink


You get what I'm saying...I hope
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know what you're getting at. Just pointing out that the Ravens offense hasn't been that bad statistically. Obviously it needs to be more reliable. Couldn't help but throw in that Flacco-related fact though. Cool
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GaTechRavens


Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 17745
Location: Madison, WI
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink


You get what I'm saying...I hope


We kind of alread do that though, no? We usually come out of games pretty aggressive. I remember in 2010 we were always the first team to score out of the gate in the 1:00 games. Camball/Flacco sucking usually only comes in when we already have a big lead.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink


You get what I'm saying...I hope


We kind of alread do that though, no? We usually come out of games pretty aggressive. I remember in 2010 we were always the first team to score out of the gate in the 1:00 games. Camball/Flacco sucking usually only comes in when we already have a big lead.


Scoring 2 TD's =/= scoring 30 points. What I'm getting at is it would be nice to see our offense be able to put up points on the regular, GET US A BIG LEAD (like 3 TD's or so), then let our defense hunt.

Usually when we get leads it's 1-2 touchdowns or less and there's still that chance that one screw up and the other team is right back in the game.
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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink


You get what I'm saying...I hope


We kind of alread do that though, no? We usually come out of games pretty aggressive. I remember in 2010 we were always the first team to score out of the gate in the 1:00 games. Camball/Flacco sucking usually only comes in when we already have a big lead.


Scoring 2 TD's =/= scoring 30 points. What I'm getting at is it would be nice to see our offense be able to put up points on the regular, GET US A BIG LEAD (like 3 TD's or so), then let our defense hunt.

Usually when we get leads it's 1-2 touchdowns or less and there's still that chance that one screw up and the other team is right back in the game.


Keep moving the goal posts.

Now, it's not good enough for our offense to get us a 2 TD lead, they now have to get us a 3 TD lead or else Flacco isn't good enough.
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gooselovechild


Joined: 29 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink


You get what I'm saying...I hope


We kind of alread do that though, no? We usually come out of games pretty aggressive. I remember in 2010 we were always the first team to score out of the gate in the 1:00 games. Camball/Flacco sucking usually only comes in when we already have a big lead.


Scoring 2 TD's =/= scoring 30 points. What I'm getting at is it would be nice to see our offense be able to put up points on the regular, GET US A BIG LEAD (like 3 TD's or so), then let our defense hunt.

Usually when we get leads it's 1-2 touchdowns or less and there's still that chance that one screw up and the other team is right back in the game.


If your team is good enough to get a double digit lead in the first place, one screw up letting the other team back into the game shouldn't be that big of a deal.

And if it is, then that's a defensive issue, not an offensive one.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink


You get what I'm saying...I hope


We kind of alread do that though, no? We usually come out of games pretty aggressive. I remember in 2010 we were always the first team to score out of the gate in the 1:00 games. Camball/Flacco sucking usually only comes in when we already have a big lead.


Scoring 2 TD's =/= scoring 30 points. What I'm getting at is it would be nice to see our offense be able to put up points on the regular, GET US A BIG LEAD (like 3 TD's or so), then let our defense hunt.

Usually when we get leads it's 1-2 touchdowns or less and there's still that chance that one screw up and the other team is right back in the game.


Keep moving the goal posts.

Now, it's not good enough for our offense to get us a 2 TD lead, they now have to get us a 3 TD lead or else Flacco isn't good enough.


You know what I'm talking about, stop trying to twist my words.

You've seen what happens when we get a lead, we take our foot off the pedal and coast. I'm saying that just because we a run-based offense doesn't mean we can't bury people and keep the pressure and be aggressive.

But It's pretty obvious that we can't be a team like Detroit, Green Bay, New England, or Dallas because Flacco hasn't shown that he can consistently throw for 40+ times and not wet the bed, and furthermore it's been statistically proven over this past year that when Ray Rice doesn't get his touches we lose.
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gooselovechild


Joined: 29 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink


You get what I'm saying...I hope


We kind of alread do that though, no? We usually come out of games pretty aggressive. I remember in 2010 we were always the first team to score out of the gate in the 1:00 games. Camball/Flacco sucking usually only comes in when we already have a big lead.


Scoring 2 TD's =/= scoring 30 points. What I'm getting at is it would be nice to see our offense be able to put up points on the regular, GET US A BIG LEAD (like 3 TD's or so), then let our defense hunt.

Usually when we get leads it's 1-2 touchdowns or less and there's still that chance that one screw up and the other team is right back in the game.


Keep moving the goal posts.

Now, it's not good enough for our offense to get us a 2 TD lead, they now have to get us a 3 TD lead or else Flacco isn't good enough.


You know what I'm talking about, stop trying to twist my words.

You've seen what happens when we get a lead, we take our foot off the pedal and coast. I'm saying that just because we a run-based offense doesn't mean we can't bury people and keep the pressure and be aggressive.

But It's pretty obvious that we can't be a team like Detroit, Green Bay, New England, or Dallas because Flacco hasn't shown that he can consistently throw for 40+ times and not wet the bed, and furthermore it's been statistically proven over this past year that when Ray Rice doesn't get his touches we lose.


If any QB is throwing it 40+ times, that team is either already way behind, has no running game to rely on once they get ahead, or the defense is so terrible that they have to keep scoring so that they have a chance to win.

Any way you look at it, your criteria doesn't put any QB in a great position to "not wet the bed".

No NFL team throws 40+ times by choice. Too many bad things come from it.
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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink


You get what I'm saying...I hope


We kind of alread do that though, no? We usually come out of games pretty aggressive. I remember in 2010 we were always the first team to score out of the gate in the 1:00 games. Camball/Flacco sucking usually only comes in when we already have a big lead.


Scoring 2 TD's =/= scoring 30 points. What I'm getting at is it would be nice to see our offense be able to put up points on the regular, GET US A BIG LEAD (like 3 TD's or so), then let our defense hunt.

Usually when we get leads it's 1-2 touchdowns or less and there's still that chance that one screw up and the other team is right back in the game.


Keep moving the goal posts.

Now, it's not good enough for our offense to get us a 2 TD lead, they now have to get us a 3 TD lead or else Flacco isn't good enough.


You know what I'm talking about, stop trying to twist my words.

You've seen what happens when we get a lead, we take our foot off the pedal and coast. I'm saying that just because we a run-based offense doesn't mean we can't bury people and keep the pressure and be aggressive.

But It's pretty obvious that we can't be a team like Detroit, Green Bay, New England, or Dallas because Flacco hasn't shown that he can consistently throw for 40+ times and not wet the bed, and furthermore it's been statistically proven over this past year that when Ray Rice doesn't get his touches we lose.


What exactly am I twisting?

And your argument kind of steps on itself.

You're arguing that you want to see our offense "bury teams" which judging by what you're saying, you mean to continue to throw the ball down the field and score as many points as possible, correct?

You are also arguing that Flacco is not consistent enough to 40+ times and not wet the bed. Given this, it is safe to assume that in your mind, if Flacco continues to throw the ball at a high pace he's bound to make a mistake. Also in your argument you mentioned how with a 1-2 TD lead, a single mistake can get the opponent right back in the game. So, if going for the 3 TD lead to "bury" the opponent, the inconsistent Flacco throws an INT and the opponent gets right back in the game, isn't this exactly the opposite of what you want?

You also point out that when Ray Rice doesn't get his touches, we lose games. Yet then again, you argue that we need to "bury teams" and not just run the ball because we're a run oriented offense.

Your argument is all over the place.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I understand we don't need to score 45 points to win because we have a defense built to be shutdown, but still, it wouldn't hurt to score more than 20 points a game for a change, am I right? Just because we run the ball doesn't mean we should play the TOP game every game and just try to win that way. However, it is pretty obvious that we CANNOT play the "Air it out and hope to score 45 points game", as we saw against San Diego.


The Ravens haven't averaged under 20 points a game in a season since 2007. The season before Flacco became the starting QB. Wink


You get what I'm saying...I hope


We kind of alread do that though, no? We usually come out of games pretty aggressive. I remember in 2010 we were always the first team to score out of the gate in the 1:00 games. Camball/Flacco sucking usually only comes in when we already have a big lead.


Scoring 2 TD's =/= scoring 30 points. What I'm getting at is it would be nice to see our offense be able to put up points on the regular, GET US A BIG LEAD (like 3 TD's or so), then let our defense hunt.

Usually when we get leads it's 1-2 touchdowns or less and there's still that chance that one screw up and the other team is right back in the game.


Keep moving the goal posts.

Now, it's not good enough for our offense to get us a 2 TD lead, they now have to get us a 3 TD lead or else Flacco isn't good enough.


You know what I'm talking about, stop trying to twist my words.

You've seen what happens when we get a lead, we take our foot off the pedal and coast. I'm saying that just because we a run-based offense doesn't mean we can't bury people and keep the pressure and be aggressive.

But It's pretty obvious that we can't be a team like Detroit, Green Bay, New England, or Dallas because Flacco hasn't shown that he can consistently throw for 40+ times and not wet the bed, and furthermore it's been statistically proven over this past year that when Ray Rice doesn't get his touches we lose.


What exactly am I twisting?

And your argument kind of steps on itself.

You're arguing that you want to see our offense "bury teams" which judging by what you're saying, you mean to continue to throw the ball down the field and score as many points as possible, correct?

Incorrect; I simply want us to not let off the gas pedal when we get a lead and go "conservative". I'm sure most of you would agree with this, correct?

You are also arguing that Flacco is not consistent enough to 40+ times and not wet the bed. Given this, it is safe to assume that in your mind, if Flacco continues to throw the ball at a high pace he's bound to make a mistake. Also in your argument you mentioned how with a 1-2 TD lead, a single mistake can get the opponent right back in the game. So, if going for the 3 TD lead to "bury" the opponent, the inconsistent Flacco throws an INT and the opponent gets right back in the game, isn't this exactly the opposite of what you want?

I don't care how we get leads, just want us to not let off the gas pedal. My argument for this was simply we don't throw the ball an rely on Flacco because Flacco hasn't shown that he can handle the pressure consistently when he has to throw the ball a lot.

You also point out that when Ray Rice doesn't get his touches, we lose games. Yet then again, you argue that we need to "bury teams" and not just run the ball because we're a run oriented offense.

I never said we shouldn't run the ball; I said there's no reason why we can't be a run-oriented team and still be aggressive with it and try to bury teams even with Play Action, etc. The way we play right now, we are 100% a TOP team where we try to run the ball, occasionally score and rely on our defense to force the other team to make the mistake instead of being aggressive on offense and thus forcing the other team to make a mistake and play our kind of football on defense (having to pass and allowing us to unleash our pass rush and let Ed roam).

Your argument is all over the place.

Not really, you just make it seem that way.


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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with SnA on this one. I'd prefer our offensive philosophy to be more agressive. I think we saw some of that in that Patriots game. We definitely looked to attack more and did creative things with running out of passing formations and passing out of run formations. We went 3 wide often enough. That is the same kind of aggressiveness that I want to see not just when we're down by field goals, but when we're up by 10-14 points. If we make a mistake and let the other team back in the game, I'd prefer if we have the confidence in our offense to right those wrongs and get better. Avoiding having confidence in your offense until you're down isn't going to help the team in the log run.

I want to see us demolish the bad teams or the average to good teams on great days. I love how we win scrappy... But at the same time I don't want to just win that way because it produces the best drama. A win is a win, destroying a team by 32 points wouldn't show me any less about this team than if we were to beat our opponent by only a field goal.

This current offense is just mediocre as a whole, I'd love to see improvements to make it more consistent and take it to the next level.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
I tend to agree with SnA on this one. I'd prefer our offensive philosophy to be more agressive. I think we saw some of that in that Patriots game. We definitely looked to attack more and did creative things with running out of passing formations and passing out of run formations. We went 3 wide often enough. That is the same kind of aggressiveness that I want to see not just when we're down by field goals, but when we're up by 10-14 points. If we make a mistake and let the other team back in the game, I'd prefer if we have the confidence in our offense to right those wrongs and get better. Avoiding having confidence in your offense until you're down isn't going to help the team in the log run.

I want to see us demolish the bad teams or the average to good teams on great days. I love how we win scrappy... But at the same time I don't want to just win that way because it produces the best drama. A win is a win, destroying a team by 32 points wouldn't show me any less about this team than if we were to beat our opponent by only a field goal.

This current offense is just mediocre as a whole, I'd love to see improvements to make it more consistent and take it to the next level.


THANK YOU!

WOW, PERFECTLY SAID, THANK YOU!

I'm actually still in shock that someone agreed with me...
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

Incorrect; I simply want us to not let off the gas pedal when we get a lead and go "conservative". I'm sure most of you would agree with this, correct?


I do agree.

Quote:
I don't care how we get leads, just want us to not let off the gas pedal. My argument for this was simply we don't throw the ball an rely on Flacco because Flacco hasn't shown that he can handle the pressure consistently when he has to throw the ball a lot.


We simply don't do it because Cam plays not to lose rather than to win. I agree with you here, but I don't see the argument that you're making about Flacco at all. You're looking at numbers on the surface without going in depth. Where has Flacco shown that when he's playing well (aka we have a decent lead which is the scenario you're presenting) that he can't continue to have a good day? You're looking purely at # of throws which takes into account days where he's playing terribly and yet has to keep throwing and projecting that into a completely different scenario. That is where your logic steps on itself.

Quote:
I never said we shouldn't run the ball; I said there's no reason why we can't be a run-oriented team and still be aggressive with it and try to bury teams even with Play Action, etc. The way we play right now, we are 100% a TOP team where we try to run the ball, occasionally score and rely on our defense to force the other team to make the mistake instead of being aggressive on offense and thus forcing the other team to make a mistake and play our kind of football on defense (having to pass and allowing us to unleash our pass rush and let Ed roam).


Again, I agree.

However, you DO say that there is a reason and that reason is because Flacco can't do it. That's my point.

Quote:
Not really, you just make it seem that way.


Maybe it doesn't seem that way to you, but I tried to break it down for you as much as I could. You're arguing that we can't do it because Flacco can't handle throwing the ball 40+ times. Then on the next line you're arguing that there's no reason we can't do it.

I'm not disagreeing with your point that we should remain aggressive; I'm one of the biggest supporters of that here -- if it's working, don't change it. However, you're simply stating two different things in back to back paragraphs. Smile
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