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elliot878


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
paul-mac wrote:
So now we have

ERF(Russell)
ESF(Sullivan)
EKF(Kidd)

Or, if we want to be accurate, we have simply "E" for Elliot. Smile



FIFY Laughing



the writing was definitely on the wall after hiring Sullivan, still a little shocked to see. Don't know why we all scratched our heads at the Sullivan hire when he was described as a cap guru, we should have foresaw but oh well, we collectively had a brain fart.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
So, let me get this straight, John Elway has 1 1/2 years of experience and you're comfortable with his player decision making?

Aside from getting Peyton Manning and (for some of us the obvious decision of) Von Miller, he hasnt done a great enough job with the player decisions to be given final say. My opinion on that wont change.

Yes I'm comfortable with Elway making the decisions.

That doesn't mean he will always make the right decisions - allowing Bunkley to walk, trading down in the draft for bad value and with New England nonetheless, reaching for Wolfe and then, has worst decision of all, wasting a 2nd round pick on a raw, developmental QB who won't see the field for 3+ years - were all mistakes. But they all mistakes made when Brian Xanders, who now you apparently think was an essential voice of reason with all the right experience, was in the room. Xanders weighed in on those mistakes and I'm sure Elway took his advice - whatever it was - into consideration when making these decisions.

So whatever disagreements you have with what Elway, I guess from your perspective that's everything except landing Peyton and drafting Von, Xanders was there for. Now you're bent out of shape that Xanders is gone when you freely admit he was part of only two good decisions of the dozens that have been made since last January?

Your arguments, JF, seem to be lost in a maze of circular logic.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Reggie McKenzie had no technical experience either aside from being an assistant, but we can argue we don't know his exact role and everyone lauded the selection. I would say a guy who actually knows the game because he played it, and a guy who showed success year one and just landed Manning is doing some of the right things.

Thats one of the worst comparisons I would have expected. Probably the dumbest if you think about it. You are comparing John Elway, with ZERO experience in this business, to a guy who was the AGM for the best GM in the NFL. Im sorry but thats a terrible comparison that I will not accept. Every intelligent football mind praised the signing of McKenzie. Everyone who knows anything knew he was the real deal.

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
JerseysFinest27 wrote:
So, let me get this straight, John Elway has 1 1/2 years of experience and you're comfortable with his player decision making?

Aside from getting Peyton Manning and (for some of us the obvious decision of) Von Miller, he hasnt done a great enough job with the player decisions to be given final say. My opinion on that wont change.

Yes I'm comfortable with Elway making the decisions.

That doesn't mean he will always make the right decisions - allowing Bunkley to walk, trading down in the draft for bad value and with New England nonetheless, reaching for Wolfe and then, has worst decision of all, wasting a 2nd round pick on a raw, developmental QB who won't see the field for 3+ years - were all mistakes. But they all mistakes made when Brian Xanders, who now you apparently think was an essential voice of reason with all the right experience, was in the room. Xanders weighed in on those mistakes and I'm sure Elway took his advice - whatever it was - into consideration when making these decisions.

So whatever disagreements you have with what Elway, I guess from your perspective that's everything except landing Peyton and drafting Von, Xanders was there for. Now you're bent out of shape that Xanders is gone when you freely admit he was part of only two good decisions of the dozens that have been made since last January?

Your arguments, JF, seem to be lost in a maze of circular logic.

You clearly dont understand where Im going with that post...

I dont give any credit to Xanders for anything the Broncos have done over the last 3 years. Lets be honest, Shanny had '09, Mac had '10, and Elway had '11. Everything since McDaniels left has fallen on Elways shoulders, because well ultimately he has made all the decisions and completely taking Brian Xanders out of the picture.

I dont mind getting rid of Xanders at all, IF that means we have a "Real GM" come in to replace him. Elway was a player, not a coach. You dont all of a sudden gain the needed experience to be a decision-maker in the NFL in 1 1/2 years. That doesnt make any sense. If you thought Josh McDaniels was inexperienced, you are getting someone with about 7 years less experience in the business.

My main feeling resides here because I dont like the idea of where Elways ego is going. Hes on his way to having more power than everyone except Pat Bowlen, with less experience in this business than some of the water boys. I dont want to see this team go down the same direction that the New York Knicks went down with Isaiah Thomas, who had 2 more years experience than Elway. Or even the direction the Cowboys have gone with Jerry Jones.

I want a real GM here. Fox is a great coach and knows the league enough to recommend players. Russell and Kidd havent proven anything yet. No person should have the amount of power that Elway is commanding. It just saddens me that some of you can sit here and accept Elway being the final decision-maker on this team, without having any type of proof that he is capable of doing the job.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess some of you overlooked this post I made earlier today. So I will repost it...

Elway said he lacked the experience to be GM, not even 2 years ago. What makes him all of a sudden think he can?
JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Id like to re-visit the words of John Elway for a second...

John Elway wrote:
I'm not interested in being a head coach. I'm not interested in being a general manager. I don't have that kind of experience to be able to pick those players day in and day out and such.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5907212&campaign=rss&source=NFLHeadlines

So when did he all of a sudden get the experience to become the teams "GM"?

Let me also set the record straight, I have no problem firing Xanders but I have a problem with Elway if he thinks he should be the one making ALL the decisions. VP of Football Ops or even Team President is fine, but dont dip into player decisions when youve never done this in your career. And no, 1 1/2 years is not enough experience, John.

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Army


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
I guess some of you overlooked this post I made earlier today. So I will repost it...

Elway said he lacked the experience to be GM, not even 2 years ago. What makes him all of a sudden think he can?
JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Id like to re-visit the words of John Elway for a second...

John Elway wrote:
I'm not interested in being a head coach. I'm not interested in being a general manager. I don't have that kind of experience to be able to pick those players day in and day out and such.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5907212&campaign=rss&source=NFLHeadlines

So when did he all of a sudden get the experience to become the teams "GM"?

Let me also set the record straight, I have no problem firing Xanders but I have a problem with Elway if he thinks he should be the one making ALL the decisions. VP of Football Ops or even Team President is fine, but dont dip into player decisions when youve never done this in your career. And no, 1 1/2 years is not enough experience, John.


Manning was an absolute coup for Elway. Elway had to have done an exemplary sales job to get Manning to come to this talent-challenged, and mismanaged franchise. Especially getting Manning to choose the Broncos over a good chance of a Superbowl appearance in San Francisco. Good for Elway (with a big dose of that congratulations to John Fox), and good for the fans.

But frankly, even McDaniels could have drafted Von Miller (or Dareus, or Green, or Peterson). As AAA pointed out, this years Draft wasn't exactly the exemplary performance of an experienced, hardened, NFL braintrust. And notwithstanding the picks of Miller and Franklin, I'm still waiting to see if last years Draft is going to climb its way up to Average. Because it has a helluva long way to go. Was Xanders a "difference maker" in acquiring talent for the Broncos? Certainly not. But, you make a good point that Elway could use a top Player Personnel expert that the Broncos presently don't have.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How anyone can sit here and claim anything about drafts is beyond me. People need to pick a side. Are you going to judge a draft after one year? One day? Three years? What is it. It seems everyone judges it differently when it's convenient for them.

Regardless, I don't see why we need an actual GM at this point. Elway is in charge, and in one season under him we made the playoffs. Not bad for a franchise that had been waning before that. Let's wait and see what happens for the future before we determine that John Elway need help. If we start a slide in the near future, I'll agree, but until then, you can't argue with results.
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lomaxgr


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think comparing John Elway to Jerry Jones is a rather large overreaction. Firstly, Jerry Jones doesn't know the game of Football like Elway. Get the two of them in a room on a whiteboard, and tell me who you think would show the other one up when talking about X and O's ...

Secondly, lets not act like Elway is running a Dictatorship because Xanders is gone. Sure, this is Elway's ship and he is the Captain. But everything I have heard suggest Elway takes PLENTY of advice from all of the other big cheeses like Fox, Russell, Kidd etc.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lomaxgr wrote:
I think comparing John Elway to Jerry Jones is a rather large overreaction. Firstly, Jerry Jones doesn't know the game of Football like Elway. Get the two of them in a room on a whiteboard, and tell me who you think would show the other one up when talking about X and O's ...

I understand its a bit of a stretch but dont act like Jerry Jones is completely incompetent. Im pretty sure he was a very good player at Arkansas when they won the National Championship back in the day. To say hes completely incompetent is false, but you are absolutely correct Elway can school him in terms of "X's and O's".

Thats not what my argument is though. Jerry Jones has complete control of the team and had zero experience before inheriting it. Doesnt that sound familiar?

lomaxgr wrote:
Secondly, lets not act like Elway is running a Dictatorship because Xanders is gone. Sure, this is Elway's ship and he is the Captain. But everything I have heard suggest Elway takes PLENTY of advice from all of the other big cheeses like Fox, Russell, Kidd etc.

Where have you heard that?

From everything that Woody and Klis right, it sounds like hes exactly what a "its my way or the highway" type of guy would say. Lets also not even dip into his ego. Everyone thats followed the Broncos or anything in Colorado knows hes got a HUGE ego.

Again, all Im saying is there is no reason to name Elway the "final say guy" if he said it himslef that he doesnt deserve it. We need a GM in here that can make the player decisions. Elway hasnt earned that job yet.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lomaxgr wrote:
I think comparing John Elway to Jerry Jones is a rather large overreaction. Firstly, Jerry Jones doesn't know the game of Football like Elway. Get the two of them in a room on a whiteboard, and tell me who you think would show the other one up when talking about X and O's ...

Secondly, lets not act like Elway is running a Dictatorship because Xanders is gone. Sure, this is Elway's ship and he is the Captain. But everything I have heard suggest Elway takes PLENTY of advice from all of the other big cheeses like Fox, Russell, Kidd etc.

Actually lomax I think the bolded is a given. He's been incredibly succesful in three entirely disparate business, Cars, restaurants and Arena football.

He was obviously not an expert in any of the three. To be that successful you almost have to do two things:
1) know what you don't know
2) surround yourself with people who do.
I think thats what he's done here.
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Army


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
lomaxgr wrote:
I think comparing John Elway to Jerry Jones is a rather large overreaction. Firstly, Jerry Jones doesn't know the game of Football like Elway. Get the two of them in a room on a whiteboard, and tell me who you think would show the other one up when talking about X and O's ...

I understand its a bit of a stretch but dont act like Jerry Jones is completely incompetent. Im pretty sure he was a very good player at Arkansas when they won the National Championship back in the day. To say hes completely incompetent is false, but you are absolutely correct Elway can school him in terms of "X's and O's".

Thats not what my argument is though. Jerry Jones has complete control of the team and had zero experience before inheriting it. Doesnt that sound familiar?

lomaxgr wrote:
Secondly, lets not act like Elway is running a Dictatorship because Xanders is gone. Sure, this is Elway's ship and he is the Captain. But everything I have heard suggest Elway takes PLENTY of advice from all of the other big cheeses like Fox, Russell, Kidd etc.

Where have you heard that?

From everything that Woody and Klis right, it sounds like hes exactly what a "its my way or the highway" type of guy would say. Lets also not even dip into his ego. Everyone thats followed the Broncos or anything in Colorado knows hes got a HUGE ego.

Again, all Im saying is there is no reason to name Elway the "final say guy" if he said it himslef that he doesnt deserve it. We need a GM in here that can make the player decisions. Elway hasnt earned that job yet.


I agree with this. Lomax had me going up to the "Russell, Kidd, etc....". I think some of us are fogetting who really runs this Billion dollar franchise. Pat Bowlen is the "dictator", the "boss", and the "decider". And, in Denver, with 40 years of sellouts, he is answerable to nobody. And although they seem to want to keep it secret from the people who pay for this franchise (fans), Bowlen seems to have some "health issues". Joe Ellis who I liken, in looks and sleazy comportment, to former Enron CEO, Jeffrey Skilling, is the #2 decider, and from everything I've seen, an incompetent "manager". Bowlen, who seems disinterested in the Broncos, and Ellis, who seems to be in over his head, run this franchise. Make no mistake about that.

Ellis, and to a lesser extent, Elway, came up with the right (lucky pick) coach, in John Fox, to stabilitze a "trainwreck" of a franchise that was in total chaos. Let's not forget or ignore where this franchise was just a little over a year ago. AND who mis-managed this franchise into that state. Of course, who can fault any naieve fan who wants to forget that their team was litttle more than a "laughing stock" a little over a year ago.

We didn't go to the Playoffs last season because of John Elways genius. We went to the Playoffs in spite of John Elway. John Elway seems to have acquired the "Napoleon" virus that McDaniels left behind, and may need to get his ego in line long enough to hire a REAL player personnel director with experience. Jersey has that one nailed.
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Reaver


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in the club that says we need a separate GM. Elway has his plate full between managing fans, managing the business, managing player personnel, and managing coaches. Xanders was never a 'true' GM, and I don't think his loss will be missed. But it wouldn't hurt Elway to divert some of his duties to another person.

I am also in the club that thinks Elway has done great so far. I was very skeptical hiring him for his position at first, but he has done nothing but prove me wrong thus far. I also don't think he's trying to be a "Napoleon". Smart and hard working people can do anything well if they put their mind to it. Like AKRNA has said, he has been successful at every career attempt he has tried thus far. I'm a believer.

I don't think this should be a GM OR Elway argument, but rather a GM AND Elway argument. Not because John needs less power, but because his plate is already fuller than it needs to be.
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lomaxgr


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Thats not what my argument is though. Jerry Jones has complete control of the team and had zero experience before inheriting it. Doesnt that sound familiar?


Not particularly. I don't think Elway meddles in the Coaching and selection of our players on gameday like Jones has been known to do. I have heard nothing to suggest that John Fox isn't in total control of Coaching and organising our depth chart.

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Where have you heard that?

From everything that Woody and Klis right, it sounds like hes exactly what a "its my way or the highway" type of guy would say. Lets also not even dip into his ego. Everyone thats followed the Broncos or anything in Colorado knows hes got a HUGE ego.


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_20451958/russell-will-have-big-say-draft-day

http://www.dailycamera.com/cu-college-sports/ci_20452135/ex-cu-buff-matt-russell-key-broncos-draft

Couple articles there about Matt Russell, and the latter has quotes from Elway himself.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/43862/why-broncos-structure-wont-change

Burger Bill notes, "President John Elway is essentially the general manager in Denver. He is the decision-maker, and he works in accord with coach John Fox".

You are not for one second going to hear me say that Elway isn't the decision maker. I said he was in my first post in this thread. I don't see how this is a, "my way or the highway" type deal.

AKRNA brings up a very good point - John has been successful in a whole bunch of different business ventures, and different types where he has had little/no experience. But did he pull a Josh McDaniels and fire everyone immediately due to ego issues? No. He kept them in place, learned the administration and procedural side of things, and then put himself in position to be the decision maker with regards to the 'norm' GM role in the NFL.

If we are going to say Elway has too much on his plate to be a GM, I say we free him up of that stuff and let him do the GM role instead. I have faith in Elway and Fox leading this team from a personnel standpoint. How does one earn the right to make player personnel decisions? Experience? Plenty of GM's have had that and failed. We hired Elway because thought his experience in Football and knowledge of the game could help us in this department, and again - I have heard nothing to suggest that Elway doesn't take on advice from his members of staff.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lomax, you bring a lot of good points. Elways obviously been successful in the business world, I guess Ill have to hold my judgment on his football decisions till I something else happens. Weve missed out on about every big FA we've looked into, except Manning. The idea of paying Ty Warren $8M a year and not paying Bunkley $5M, still boggles my mind.

I guess Ill have to reserve my opinion for now. Im still hoping we hire an experienced GM to give the team some experience in the Front Office. I dont have faith in Elway has a football decision-maker after only a year a half in the position. Matt Russell has the most experience and hes only been scouting for 7 years. This front office is covered with inexperienced people, aside from John Fox, and dont even start me with him because a Head Coach has so much on his hands to worry about player acquisitions. I dont mind Fox giving his opinion but he cant do everything.

Only time will tell if Elways ego will get in the way of the future of this franchise...
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
I dont give any credit to Xanders for anything the Broncos have done over the last 3 years. Lets be honest, Shanny had '09, Mac had '10, and Elway had '11. Everything since McDaniels left has fallen on Elways shoulders, because well ultimately he has made all the decisions and completely taking Brian Xanders out of the picture.

I dont mind getting rid of Xanders at all, IF that means we have a "Real GM" come in to replace him. Elway was a player, not a coach. You dont all of a sudden gain the needed experience to be a decision-maker in the NFL in 1 1/2 years. That doesnt make any sense. If you thought Josh McDaniels was inexperienced, you are getting someone with about 7 years less experience in the business.

My main feeling resides here because I dont like the idea of where Elways ego is going. Hes on his way to having more power than everyone except Pat Bowlen, with less experience in this business than some of the water boys. I dont want to see this team go down the same direction that the New York Knicks went down with Isaiah Thomas, who had 2 more years experience than Elway. Or even the direction the Cowboys have gone with Jerry Jones.

I want a real GM here. Fox is a great coach and knows the league enough to recommend players. Russell and Kidd havent proven anything yet. No person should have the amount of power that Elway is commanding. It just saddens me that some of you can sit here and accept Elway being the final decision-maker on this team, without having any type of proof that he is capable of doing the job.

I think you're looking too linearly at "experience." Elway is an intelligent, well-educated, dedicated and hard-working person. He knows football very well having been immersed in it since early childhood as his father was a coach and later NFL scout. He has immeasurable experience from his playing days.

Most importantly he knows how to be an executive. What all successful executives do is surround themselves with experienced and capable people who are masters of their craft. A good CEO of major corporation will get good marketing people, good finance people, good strategy people, etc. A football executive will surround himself with good coaches, good scouts, good personnel directors, etc. Those people then give their input which the executive weighs, knowing what questions to ask about a prospect, a scheme, a new coach, etc. With input from various parties and their own personal knowledge, a decision is made.

I don't understand what you really mean by a "real GM." Any GM hired would report to Elway, like Xanders did and Elway would remain the final-say. The only a GM would do is what Xanders did - be another voice in the room. So you either a) want a another voice in the room to provide input to Elway or b) you want someone hired would out-rank Elway and be able to over-rule him, another layer of management between Elway and Ellis/Bowlen. Both are bad ideas IMO.

We might just have to agree to disagree.

FYI - Shanahan had 2008, Mac had '09 and '10, and Elway had '11 and '12 with Xanders in Front Office in one capacity or another.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
I don't understand what you really mean by a "real GM." Any GM hired would report to Elway, like Xanders did and Elway would remain the final-say. The only a GM would do is what Xanders did - be another voice in the room. So you either a) want a another voice in the room to provide input to Elway or b) you want someone hired would out-rank Elway and be able to over-rule him, another layer of management between Elway and Ellis/Bowlen. Both are bad ideas IMO.

I guess what I want is to not have a guy, with less than 2 years experience in the NFL decision-making world, to be making final-decisions for my team. He hasnt earned that right to be given that much authority so he shouldnt give that authority to himself. I mean lets be honest, what has he proven that hes capable of being anything like "Ted Thompson"?

In a real world, I would name Elway Team President and hire a GM that actually knows the game and spent his entire career scouting and learning the the business. Elway had an amazing career and Im sure hes able to evaluate talent, but theres a fine line between knowing the game and being able to make player decisions. Look at Eric Mangini. Hes known as one of the brightest coaches around but he failed in making player decisions.

Fire Ellis. Make Elway Team President. Hire an experienced GM. Those would be my moves if I were Bowlen. But he loves Elway, clearly.
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