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Grade The Draft: OGs
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GRADE?
A
19%
 19%  [ 4 ]
B
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
C
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
D
47%
 47%  [ 10 ]
F
23%
 23%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 21

Author Message
The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Grade The Draft: OGs Reply with quote

I think we ended up having a good discussion on the WRs. There were 16 WRs drafted since Jimmy left the Cowboys. The next highest position drafted was OG with 14 players drafted. Here's the list...

1. Larry Allen
2. Shane Hannah
3. Kenneth McDaniel
4. Steve Scifres
5. Antonio Fleming
6. Solomon Page
7. Kelvin Garmon
8. Matt Lehr
9. Tyson Walter
10. Justin Bates
11. Stephen Peterman
12. Robert Brewster
13. David Arkin
14. Bill Nagy

How well has Jerry done at drafting OGs? How RELIABLE has he been at replenishing the position through the draft?

***So I don't get accused of trying to manipulate anything, when voting keep in mind that Larry Allen was a 12 year starter and 10X pro bowler for the Cowboys. That has to count for something.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gave an A. And I will tell you why. Yes, we missed on a whole slew of players (not all who were high draft picks) but we landed not only a HOFer...but also someone who I believe was the best player on our Line in the 90's and also the best offensive lineman I have ever seen. When you draft a historic player like that, I take notice.

We may not have been able to replenish via draft as much as I would like, but we got one that counted for a lot.
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GrassyKnoll


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gave the OG drafts Asa clear F. Drafting one HOF out of 14 is ok, but the rest of these guys had little or no career in the league. That sucks.
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textaz03


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gave it a D. Jerry has a poor track record of drafting OG's with lone exception of LA. He is the only reason I did not grade it an F.
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Calvert28


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

F I gotta give.

There are some legit names on that board not to mention Larry Allen.

But Jerry rarely went outside his little comfort box and instead of building a good line to keep Aikman and Romo upright. He chose instead to continuisly use the picks to make a splash at more celebrate positions on offense and defense. Multiple times we could have drafted a pro bowl guard in the first round. Instead we spent the pick on a stretch prospect or a gamble altogether.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I gave an A. And I will tell you why. Yes, we missed on a whole slew of players (not all who were high draft picks) but we landed not only a HOFer...but also someone who I believe was the best player on our Line in the 90's and also the best offensive lineman I have ever seen. When you draft a historic player like that, I take notice.

We may not have been able to replenish via draft as much as I would like, but we got one that counted for a lot.


Your grade is YOUR grade, but I gotta ask... If Jerry drafted 13 Pee Wee Hermans to man the other guard spot and then take over for LA for the past six years, would your grade still have been an A?
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J-Hopp


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larry Allen is the sole reason Jerry doesn't get an F because everyone listed minus Arkin and Nagy (who are still basically rookies) made little to no impact in their time with the Cowboys.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I gave an A. And I will tell you why. Yes, we missed on a whole slew of players (not all who were high draft picks) but we landed not only a HOFer...but also someone who I believe was the best player on our Line in the 90's and also the best offensive lineman I have ever seen. When you draft a historic player like that, I take notice.

We may not have been able to replenish via draft as much as I would like, but we got one that counted for a lot.


Your grade is YOUR grade, but I gotta ask... If Jerry drafted 13 Pee Wee Hermans to man the other guard spot and then take over for LA for the past six years, would your grade still have been an A?


Here is the problem with your current set up. You do not take into account where they are drafted. You just list everyone.

Dallas, under Jerry (Post Jimmy), has never drafted a OG in the first. That right there decreases the instant chance of success. Several of the players listed are 3rd round or much lower. And while yes, you can find talent there, we haven't. Of only 3 players who were taken in the 2nd...one was garbage...one was decent to above average...and one was the best to ever play the position.

So by having blanket positions, people see all these names and instantly go: "Who? Crap. Crap. Crap." When, one should put it in perspective.

Also, I don't think you can just build from the draft, but need FA as well. (NOW, before someone freaks out, I think the bulk of the team should be the draft, and you form your identity that way...but you need select players to finish the job).

So, much like the first pick grades you ask...I placed higher value on earlier picks than latter.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-Hopp wrote:
Larry Allen is the sole reason Jerry doesn't get an F because everyone listed minus Arkin and Nagy (who are still basically rookies) made little to no impact in their time with the Cowboys.


Solomon Page, given that he started for at least 50 games for us, disagrees very violently with you.
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larry Allen - A
Shane Hannah - F
Kenneth McDaniel - F
Steve Scifres - F
Antonio Fleming - F
Solomon Page - B
Kelvin Garmon - C
Matt Lehr - C
Tyson Walter - C
Justin Bates - F
Stephen Peterman - D
Robert Brewster - F
David Arkin - D
Bill Nagy - C

17/14 = 1.2 [D-]

Finding a HOFer counts for quite a bit, but no where near enough. Too many players on this list never even sniffed the field.
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Dirk Gently


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Grade The Draft: OGs Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:

2. Shane Hannah
4. Steve Scifres
7. Kelvin Garmon
8. Matt Lehr
11. Stephen Peterman


All these guys had *some* career in the league. I think the lack of a good line coach for a while may have done this stuff in.

I thought Solomon Page and Robert Brewster were drafted as Tackles and Tyson Walter as a Center.


Slam, a couple of suggestions:
1) include the rounds people were picked-- I think that's important towards making a legit judgement on their value as drafted.

2)If possible, include NFL average hit/miss percentages for these positions and draft spots. It's also worth noting the draft success percentages from [url="http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2012/5/5/3001621/what-forever-changed-my-view-of-the-nfl-draft"]this[/url] blogging the boys post.

3) It would help your appearance of impartiality if you didn't start with areas where we have been the worst.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Grade The Draft: OGs Reply with quote

Dirk Gently wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:

2. Shane Hannah
4. Steve Scifres
7. Kelvin Garmon
8. Matt Lehr
11. Stephen Peterman


All these guys had *some* career in the league. I think the lack of a good line coach for a while may have done this stuff in.

I thought Solomon Page and Robert Brewster were drafted as Tackles and Tyson Walter as a Center.


Slam, a couple of suggestions:
1) include the rounds people were picked-- I think that's important towards making a legit judgement on their value as drafted.

2)If possible, include NFL average hit/miss percentages for these positions and draft spots. It's also worth noting the draft success percentages from [url="http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2012/5/5/3001621/what-forever-changed-my-view-of-the-nfl-draft"]this[/url] blogging the boys post.

3) It would help your appearance of impartiality if you didn't start with areas where we have been the worst.


I can provide the rounds they were drafted in. But, IMO, it really doesn't matter for the ultimate question... which is "how well has the organization replenished the position through the draft???" Keep in mind that there will be a section where we evaluate trades and FA signings. This portion just concentrates on the draft itself. Also, keep in mind that every draft pick will be accounted for in the process. The premium picks, in theory, should elevate those positions where higher draft resources were utilized.

For example, Jerry has spent numerous premium picks on CBs and pass rushers (rounds 1-3). The question will be the same with the CBs as it is with the WRs or OGs.... How well has the organization replenished the position through the draft? In other words, it's not about which round Jerry dedicated to each position, it's about how well the organization is at taking drafted players and turning them into contributing players. Therefore, the fact that OTHER organization have turned Jerry's picks into serviceable players is of NO benefit to the Cowboys. Therefore, please don't even consider whether the Falcons worked magic with a player the cowboys cut.

One more thing, Dirk, think about this... when we get the pass rushing section (4-3 DEs and 3-4 OLBs), you will see that Jerry has invested an extremely high amount of premium picks on those positions. IMO opinion, it would be unfair to downgrade Jerry on the fact that he spent premium picks on players like Carver, Ekuban, Pittman, & Carpenter who busted because those players were 1-2 round picks. Rather, the question for them will be the same... how well has the organization replenished the position in the draft despite what resources he invested in the position. Otherwise, a B grade might get dropped down to a D or an F. Make sense?
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plan9misfit


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fail. Larry Allen was one of the greatest OGs of all time (if not the greatest), but every other selection was junk. One player can't pull up an entire class with that many players in it. He is 1 of 14, and 7% of a sample is not enough to pull a grade up when 93% of the sample set would receive failing or D grades.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
J-Hopp wrote:
Larry Allen is the sole reason Jerry doesn't get an F because everyone listed minus Arkin and Nagy (who are still basically rookies) made little to no impact in their time with the Cowboys.


Solomon Page, given that he started for at least 50 games for us, disagrees very violently with you.


Solomon Page may have been the biggest underachiever in Cowboys history. He was railroaded out town because he sucked so bad his last 2 years in Dallas. Solomon Page was average in his first 2 years, but overall he made literally "zero" positive impact on the cowboys. He was a member of the OL that Emmitt Smith rightfully referred to as "trash." If you are relying on Solomon Page to support your argument here... you are e displaying clear ignorance about Solomon Page as a player. Do you really think that if Solomon had any positive impact on the Cowboys OL that Jerry would have let him go without a fight? You do realize that he would have been coming into his prime in 2003, right? And the team was coming off a 5-11 season that had serious OL problems? If he was so good, why didn't he make the Lions or the Giants squads when he was in the prime of his career? I would be shocked if anybody who watched the Cowboys play would grade Page's performance in Dallas anything higher than a C-.
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would give the team a D because, like others, JJ has to be given credit for taking Allen. The rest were utter duds, but there is one jewel.
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