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elliot878


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donut wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
bobdevine wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
Larry Warford from Kentucky is a guy who I think with better conditioning could be a great Offensive Guard prospect.


My guess is that Warford will be picked in the top half of the 1st round. At #28 Denver might get a shot at picking another OG, Jonathan Cooper. Cooper isn't massive but he is a fast and mobile player.


No chance 2 guards go top half of the first. To be a guard in the top 16 you've gotta be a "generational" type talent, position just isn't important enough. DeCastro was thought to be an incredible prospect, fell to 24. Isn't Cooper the consensus #2 guard behind Warmack? So Warford would have to supplant him from that spot, and then prove to be very close to Warmack, which if that was the case, people would know it by now.

One of Cooper and Warford will definitely be there at the end of the first. I wouldn't be surprised if both were. Have a hard time seeing 3 guards going in the first round.

Quote:
Since 97 only OG picked in Rd.1 Faneca(26), Hutchinson(17), Simmons(30) Carey(19),Mankins(32),Joseph(23),Grubbs(29),Iupati(17),Decastro(24)
You can throw Centers into that mix too..highest OC drafted since 1997.. Pouncey (15) and Woody (17).. interior OL just don't get draft high

Warmack at very worst should be STL pick at #16.
As for Warford he'll probably end up going in the 2nd.


Should be, but guard is tricky to predict, as most teams just don't value it highly. Need to look back at Fisher's history (I see a lot of mocks have Warmack at 16 to STL). Has he ever drafted a 1st round G? If so where in the first?

Warmack is probably a top 5 talent in this draft, but playing guard, he wont be a top 5, probably not a top 10 pick. It's just not a highly valued position by NFL front offices and coaching staffs on draft day. Not a slight on Warmack, many front offices and coaching staffs have a similar view of the running back position on draft day (thanks to a guy who coached here for a little while).

DeCastro was assumed to be a top 15 pick last year too. Slid to the mid-twenties. Yes, Warmack is the better prospect, but the guard slide does happen, so I wouldn't be shocked if he were to fall out of the top 16.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
"first pick should fill immediate void"[/ belief that Elway and Fox share. .


The better Elway does his job, the harder that is to accomplish. Drafting at #28, it's not all that easy this year. How many players and at what positions would come in and "fill a void" or have an impact right now?

Safety, OG, rotational DT, rotational DE, MLB? I don't know. We had depth with young kids at some of those positions last year, PS or IR guys at others.

I won't be surprised by anything they do this year outside of Drafting a QB or WR at #1.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
"first pick should fill immediate void"[/ belief that Elway and Fox share. .


The better Elway does his job, the harder that is to accomplish. Drafting at #28, it's not all that easy this year. How many players and at what positions would come in and "fill a void" or have an impact right now?

Safety, OG, rotational DT, rotational DE, MLB? I don't know. We had depth with young kids at some of those positions last year, PS or IR guys at others.

I won't be surprised by anything they do this year outside of Drafting a QB or WR at #1.


You would be surprised if they draft a WR? That's one of the positions it wouldn't surprise me at all to see.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
Should be, but guard is tricky to predict, as most teams just don't value it highly. Need to look back at Fisher's history (I see a lot of mocks have Warmack at 16 to STL). Has he ever drafted a 1st round G? If so where in the first?

Warmack is probably a top 5 talent in this draft, but playing guard, he wont be a top 5, probably not a top 10 pick. It's just not a highly valued position by NFL front offices and coaching staffs on draft day. Not a slight on Warmack, many front offices and coaching staffs have a similar view of the running back position on draft day (thanks to a guy who coached here for a little while).

DeCastro was assumed to be a top 15 pick last year too. Slid to the mid-twenties. Yes, Warmack is the better prospect, but the guard slide does happen, so I wouldn't be shocked if he were to fall out of the top 16.

Warmack won't make it past the Giants at #19. They need interior OL help and the Giants are the type of team, like the Steelers and Ravens, that will usually BPA regardless of need and regardless of position. If he does somehow slip past the Giants, the Bears will nab him at #20 to fill a void in that sieve of an OL.

broncos67 wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
"first pick should fill immediate void"[/ belief that Elway and Fox share. .


The better Elway does his job, the harder that is to accomplish. Drafting at #28, it's not all that easy this year. How many players and at what positions would come in and "fill a void" or have an impact right now?

Safety, OG, rotational DT, rotational DE, MLB? I don't know. We had depth with young kids at some of those positions last year, PS or IR guys at others.

I won't be surprised by anything they do this year outside of Drafting a QB or WR at #1.


You would be surprised if they draft a WR? That's one of the positions it wouldn't surprise me at all to see.


I agree.

If we hold on to #28, the only positions I would rule out are QB and OLB, unless it's an OLB they plan to convert to MLB. Any other position wouldn't surprise me.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
"first pick should fill immediate void"[/ belief that Elway and Fox share. .


The better Elway does his job, the harder that is to accomplish. Drafting at #28, it's not all that easy this year. How many players and at what positions would come in and "fill a void" or have an impact right now?

Safety, OG, rotational DT, rotational DE, MLB? I don't know. We had depth with young kids at some of those positions last year, PS or IR guys at others.

I won't be surprised by anything they do this year outside of Drafting a QB or WR at #1.


You would be surprised if they draft a WR? That's one of the positions it wouldn't surprise me at all to see.


You may be right. There's not much they can do that'll really surprise me. From what I've read and heard in this forum and other sites though I'd think we can get better value / same impact from the 2nd or 3rd round.

I do believe they'll go WR fairly high.
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germ-x


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as the draft goes i really have no idea what Denver may do. Last years draft was difficult, but i find this one even tougher.

As i have said all offseason, i want Denver to find a player that can be one of the best in the league at his position. I would prefer such a player along the defensive front 4, but overall i really don't care where the guy plays. If you look at Denver's roster you will notice it is severely lacking in talent, again especially defensively. I also don't care if it takes some development for a player to reach that point.

Now, as i have stated before, it isn't always possible to get such a player, but if the opportunity arises it should be taken.

What i don't want is Denver drafting average players just to fill a short term need. That is what free agency should be used for. The draft, especially early picks should be used on building block type players.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
Donut wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
bobdevine wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
Larry Warford from Kentucky is a guy who I think with better conditioning could be a great Offensive Guard prospect.


My guess is that Warford will be picked in the top half of the 1st round. At #28 Denver might get a shot at picking another OG, Jonathan Cooper. Cooper isn't massive but he is a fast and mobile player.


No chance 2 guards go top half of the first. To be a guard in the top 16 you've gotta be a "generational" type talent, position just isn't important enough. DeCastro was thought to be an incredible prospect, fell to 24. Isn't Cooper the consensus #2 guard behind Warmack? So Warford would have to supplant him from that spot, and then prove to be very close to Warmack, which if that was the case, people would know it by now.

One of Cooper and Warford will definitely be there at the end of the first. I wouldn't be surprised if both were. Have a hard time seeing 3 guards going in the first round.

Quote:
Since 97 only OG picked in Rd.1 Faneca(26), Hutchinson(17), Simmons(30) Carey(19),Mankins(32),Joseph(23),Grubbs(29),Iupati(17),Decastro(24)
You can throw Centers into that mix too..highest OC drafted since 1997.. Pouncey (15) and Woody (17).. interior OL just don't get draft high

Warmack at very worst should be STL pick at #16.
As for Warford he'll probably end up going in the 2nd.


Should be, but guard is tricky to predict, as most teams just don't value it highly. Need to look back at Fisher's history (I see a lot of mocks have Warmack at 16 to STL). Has he ever drafted a 1st round G? If so where in the first?

Warmack is probably a top 5 talent in this draft, but playing guard, he wont be a top 5, probably not a top 10 pick. It's just not a highly valued position by NFL front offices and coaching staffs on draft day. Not a slight on Warmack, many front offices and coaching staffs have a similar view of the running back position on draft day (thanks to a guy who coached here for a little while).

DeCastro was assumed to be a top 15 pick last year too. Slid to the mid-twenties. Yes, Warmack is the better prospect, but the guard slide does happen, so I wouldn't be shocked if he were to fall out of the top 16.

Its a bit different. Warmack is better as you said but the talent of the first round was better last yr imo(honestly I dont even know if there are 16 guys worth of 1st round grades). I know people like to look at history but when it comes to interior OL I dont think it works. Look at the OL quotes above that's 9 OGs taken since 1997. Not enough to really determine trends since Warmack is supposed to be the best since Hutchingson.
AKRNA wrote:

You may be right. There's not much they can do that'll really surprise me. From what I've read and heard in this forum and other sites though I'd think we can get better value / same impact from the 2nd or 3rd round.

I do believe they'll go WR fairly high.

The thing is the WR talent pool is really similar. No top flight AJ Green guy. But honestly looking at the class a lot are really raw or they have some sort of deficiency. For example Patterson is a very good athlete. Then a guy like Stedman Bailey that has great hands, good route running, ect but he is short and doenst have a great catching radius.
But like I said above I dont think that there is a lot of people worthy of a first round. The end of the draft will be interesting to see how guys align and fall because so amny different options for positions.
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most likely positional targets in round 1:
DE/DT (if its end Wolfe slides in - tackle he stays on the left)
MLB - a few guys can step in and beat out everyone on our roster at the position
WR - good slot guys and playmaking styles.

On the fence:
Safety - might want to see what we have from Q and Rahim in year 3 before investing a first.
Guard - may depend on whose available and really says something about how we view Kuper, and the importance of the G position.

In the first round I've ruled out:
CB - there's too much depth for a rookie to make an instant impact like Elway and Fox want. They won't draft cb first round. Take that to the bank and if I'm wrong I'll go straight to the I was wrong thread and you guys can punish me there lol. Disclaimer: Revis for 28 doesn't count.
OLB - samesies unless they think a guy can play the middle (Arthur Brown)
OT - were set there, I don't see Franklin moving, think they like him out right.
TE - Just don't see it. Crowded for one and idk if there's a gronk/Hernandez/VD type in this draft.
RB - is there even a first round back in this class?
QB - not happening.
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next to the blue-color and instant-starter theories of us, here is another one: the back-to-back theory or "let's look at what the Bengals have done recently".

Two years ago, there where rumors post draft that Elway strongly considered trading up for Fairley as the latter fell into the upper teens. That had given us Von and Fairely as a defensive duo which would have solved our pass rushing problems - on paper (Fairely got injured that year) - in an instant. Instead, we then proceeded with a similar move, taking Moore and Carter at safety to shore up that position in the blink of an eye. Again, at least in theory that is what Elway attempted to do, so let's disregard their actual development up to now for the sake of the argument.

All this tells us is that if the FO has indentified a huge hole at a position (see The Dream and Q) or an improvable facet of the game (see Von and Fairely), they will act accordingly.

The question is whether we have such a glaring need or lack of prowess in an area this year?

The most immediate need we have is at MLB. Brooking won't be brought back and Mays is an uncertainty. Irving has proven to be better suited for the outside and DJ would only be stop-gap improvisation in the middle. A huge gap we have here, and as there are no sufficient choices on the market, I have a feeling we go MLB high and late as well. Alec Ogletree/Kevin Minter and Kiki Alonso would no shock me.

I think we will leave Wolfe at DE, which then makes DT a premier focus for us, too, as Vickerson is the only one of the FAs there (Bannan and Warren) I would resign. Depending on how the chips fall in FA with players from the outside, I can see us going DT early and later on again, meaning a player la Wolfe in Sharrif Floyd or a clogger who has seen himself slide a bit like Jonathan Hankins and a consistent high-effort prospect like Bennie Logan.

Next to DT, if G is not a position of need it is at least an area which can be improved in terms of physicality and run-blocking. Hence, I can see us going G early and a G/C prospect again later. Some of your guys' favorite Larry Warford and a versatile prospect like Khaled Holmes come to mind.

*In the context of my musings, 'high' or 'early' means round 1-2 and 'late' starts with round 4
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germ-x


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:

OT - were set there, I don't see Franklin moving, think they like him out right.


According to the Denver Post and through rotoworld, the Broncos will be looking to move Orlando Franklin inside to guard this offseason.

Quote:
The Denver Post says the Broncos will look "long and hard" at moving RT Orlando Franklin inside to guard.


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6600/orlando-franklin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a link for further info, the NFL now has made available its scouting reports on the prospects:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/tracker
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
elliot878 wrote:

OT - were set there, I don't see Franklin moving, think they like him out right.


According to the Denver Post and through rotoworld, the Broncos will be looking to move Orlando Franklin inside to guard this offseason.

Quote:
The Denver Post says the Broncos will look "long and hard" at moving RT Orlando Franklin inside to guard.


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6600/orlando-franklin


Got a great rumor to add to that germ, you'll love it. Ben Garland according to all sources has the quiockest feet and best balance of all lineman O or D. He's finally regained his size and is up to 305.

Heard a rumor about him working at RT. (totally unsubstantiated, don't ask for a link)

About moving Franklin, I've been on that band wagon for almost two full seasons.
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germ-x


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
elliot878 wrote:

OT - were set there, I don't see Franklin moving, think they like him out right.


According to the Denver Post and through rotoworld, the Broncos will be looking to move Orlando Franklin inside to guard this offseason.

Quote:
The Denver Post says the Broncos will look "long and hard" at moving RT Orlando Franklin inside to guard.


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6600/orlando-franklin


Got a great rumor to add to that germ, you'll love it. Ben Garland according to all sources has the quiockest feet and best balance of all lineman O or D. He's finally regained his size and is up to 305.

Heard a rumor about him working at RT. (totally unsubstantiated, don't ask for a link)

About moving Franklin, I've been on that band wagon for almost two full seasons.


Well that would certainly make sense and explain Denver looking "long and hard" at moving Franklin inside.

I don't have any problem with Denver experimenting at a replacement and Garland is probably as a good an option as any to try that with.

I have mentioned before that if Denver wants to improve the OL they could have some flexibility if they are willing to attempt moving Franklin to OG. It is something that could be like killing 2 birds with 1 stone if it all worked out as everyone hopes.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
As i have said all offseason, i want Denver to find a player that can be one of the best in the league at his position. I would prefer such a player along the defensive front 4, but overall i really don't care where the guy plays. If you look at Denver's roster you will notice it is severely lacking in talent, again especially defensively. I also don't care if it takes some development for a player to reach that point.

I agree with this. I wouldn't go as far as to say we're "severely lacking in talent" but we could use another difference-maker at any level of the defense.

It's one of the reasons why I've moved firmly into the trade for Revis camp. No player we can get at #28 can make as big or as instant an impact as he can. With Revis on the opposing team's #1 WR and Champ on the #2, Harris in the slot, Moore patrolling the deep middle and Von, Doom, Hunter, Wolfe and hopefully a rookie DT who can help collapse the pocket from inside, it would become almost impossible to pass against us.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm beginning to fall in love with Kevin Minter. I saw tape on him recently (from a guy I work with) and he's one hell of a linebacker. I highly doubt he drops to 28, but if he does and we don't jump on it, I'd be shocked. He's going to be a very, very good player for a long time.
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