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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5231
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
The value chart is the worst thing to happen to mock drafts in my opinion, lol. I just don't see any way we can move up an exorbitant number of spots without giving much up. Plus, I don't believe we're just a LB away from being set post Peyton Manning...that's why I'm against it.


And the bolded my friend is the epitome of a "straw man" argument. If you want to say, "I don't see anyway we can move from 25 to 7, only giving up next years #1, DJ and maybe a 4th" thats fine.

Instead you redefine the specific argument in your own terms, IE: "exorbitant" and "not giving up much".

You really do work in DC don't you?


Sorry AKRNA, the only straw man argument here is yours and it is easily seen by your mockery of nearly everyone's post on the subject.

That is exactly what everyone is saying (that 2 1sts and DJ Williams isn't enough to make that trade), heck i flat out said that your proposal would be a low ball offer. You have yet to provide any evidence aside from the trade value chart to refute my opinion and instead continually use the "straw man argument" as your key point in your response, while also getting defensive and posting your Laughing and how it is too funny and you need to stop now....which are usually pretty good signs of someone who doesn't know how to respond.

Are you sure you're not the one living in DC?


Please oh please, tell me! What specifically do you think it would take to move from #25 to #7? Something other than "an excorbitant amount" of picks or "selling the farm" would be nice. Maybe even provide a bit of detail on your 4 picks. Also, by "everyone" I'm assuming you mean you and 67?

You're driving me nuts!! Answer the f**king question!!

ps: here's a definition of "straw man" . Obviously you're a bit fuzzy on that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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germ-x


Joined: 05 Apr 2009
Posts: 7901
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
The value chart is the worst thing to happen to mock drafts in my opinion, lol. I just don't see any way we can move up an exorbitant number of spots without giving much up. Plus, I don't believe we're just a LB away from being set post Peyton Manning...that's why I'm against it.


And the bolded my friend is the epitome of a "straw man" argument. If you want to say, "I don't see anyway we can move from 25 to 7, only giving up next years #1, DJ and maybe a 4th" thats fine.

Instead you redefine the specific argument in your own terms, IE: "exorbitant" and "not giving up much".

You really do work in DC don't you?


Sorry AKRNA, the only straw man argument here is yours and it is easily seen by your mockery of nearly everyone's post on the subject.

That is exactly what everyone is saying (that 2 1sts and DJ Williams isn't enough to make that trade), heck i flat out said that your proposal would be a low ball offer. You have yet to provide any evidence aside from the trade value chart to refute my opinion and instead continually use the "straw man argument" as your key point in your response, while also getting defensive and posting your Laughing and how it is too funny and you need to stop now....which are usually pretty good signs of someone who doesn't know how to respond.

Are you sure you're not the one living in DC?


Please oh please, tell me! What specifically do you think it would take to move from #25 to #7? Something other than "an excorbitant amount" of picks or "selling the farm" would be nice. Maybe even provide a bit of detail on your 4 picks. Also, by "everyone" I'm assuming you mean you and 67?

You're driving me nuts!! Answer the f**king question!!


Heck, i thought i did provide the 4 picks and if i didn't i apologize.

IMO, it would take something like Denver's 2013 1st and 3rd as well as Denver's 2014 1st and a mid round pick.

I base this off of the closest trade i could find in the last 4 years that would be similar. That trade is when the Falcons moved up to #6 from #27. In that trade they gave up 5 picks. In that trade the Falcons gave up a 2011 1st, 2nd, and 4th as well as a 2012 1st and 4th.

Another similar trade was when the Jets moved up to #5 from the late teens i believe for Sanchez. IIRC, the Jets gave up a 1st and 2nd and some players, though i don't think any of them were worth a whole lot.

To add, i know that Manti Teo is a hell of a player and i would love to have him on the roster. However, i don't think he is the piece that puts Denver over the top, nor do i think he is a primetime difference maker. I don't think Manti Teo is a player that would dictate whether Denver is a SB contender or if they could even win a Super Bowl. For example, a guy like Von Miller is irreplaceable no matter how you look at it. IMO, at ILB Teo's production could be similarly produced out of a lesser player or a combination of players (Irving/Woodyard, wouldn't that be nice?). That is the biggest reason i wouldn't want to trade up for him, again, i view it similar to the RB of the defense. Further, Denver could give up 2 1sts, and a 3rd and mid round pick for Teo and then in the 2014 draft we're sitting here saying, damn, we need a DT, or any other weak position for that matter and now aren't in position and don't have the ammo to get such a player.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5231
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
The value chart is the worst thing to happen to mock drafts in my opinion, lol. I just don't see any way we can move up an exorbitant number of spots without giving much up. Plus, I don't believe we're just a LB away from being set post Peyton Manning...that's why I'm against it.


And the bolded my friend is the epitome of a "straw man" argument. If you want to say, "I don't see anyway we can move from 25 to 7, only giving up next years #1, DJ and maybe a 4th" thats fine.

Instead you redefine the specific argument in your own terms, IE: "exorbitant" and "not giving up much".

You really do work in DC don't you?


Sorry AKRNA, the only straw man argument here is yours and it is easily seen by your mockery of nearly everyone's post on the subject.

That is exactly what everyone is saying (that 2 1sts and DJ Williams isn't enough to make that trade), heck i flat out said that your proposal would be a low ball offer. You have yet to provide any evidence aside from the trade value chart to refute my opinion and instead continually use the "straw man argument" as your key point in your response, while also getting defensive and posting your Laughing and how it is too funny and you need to stop now....which are usually pretty good signs of someone who doesn't know how to respond.

Are you sure you're not the one living in DC?


Please oh please, tell me! What specifically do you think it would take to move from #25 to #7? Something other than "an excorbitant amount" of picks or "selling the farm" would be nice. Maybe even provide a bit of detail on your 4 picks. Also, by "everyone" I'm assuming you mean you and 67?

You're driving me nuts!! Answer the f**king question!!


Heck, i thought i did provide the 4 picks and if i didn't i apologize.

IMO, it would take something like Denver's 2013 1st and 3rd as well as Denver's 2014 1st and a mid round pick.

I base this off of the closest trade i could find in the last 4 years that would be similar. That trade is when the Falcons moved up to #6 from #27. In that trade they gave up 5 picks. In that trade the Falcons gave up a 2011 1st, 2nd, and 4th as well as a 2012 1st and 4th.

Another similar trade was when the Jets moved up to #5 from the late teens i believe for Sanchez. IIRC, the Jets gave up a 1st and 2nd and some players, though i don't think any of them were worth a whole lot.

To add, i know that Manti Teo is a hell of a player and i would love to have him on the roster. However, i don't think he is the piece that puts Denver over the top, nor do i think he is a primetime difference maker. I don't think Manti Teo is a player that would dictate whether Denver is a SB contender or if they could even win a Super Bowl. For example, a guy like Von Miller is irreplaceable no matter how you look at it. IMO, at ILB Teo's production could be similarly produced out of a lesser player or a combination of players (Irving/Woodyard, wouldn't that be nice?). That is the biggest reason i wouldn't want to trade up for him, again, i view it similar to the RB of the defense. Further, Denver could give up 2 1sts, and a 3rd and mid round pick for Teo and then in the 2014 draft we're sitting here saying, damn, we need a DT, or any other weak position for that matter and now aren't in position and don't have the ammo to get such a player.


Okay, I think your compensation is a bit high but not totally unreasonable. I'd think we could save a mid round pick by tossing in DJ, but thats just conjecture.

Our views on Te'os value to a 4-3 differ quite a bit though. It's very difficult to run a true 4-3 without a solid-very good MLB. Thats actually one of the reasons Collier kept developing the 3-4. He thought there were too few athletes who could truly man the middle.

Anyway, it's arguable that a stud MLB is the single most important piece to a 4-3. Joe Collier thought so. Te'o is the best college MLB I've seen in decades and will be an impact 3 down MLB. Something we really need if we're to compete with the "no-huddle" running teams we'll face.

He'd immediately provide some teeth to our nickle / dime run defenses. Something we really need that Bree's failed to exploit last week.
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Russell2Bailey


Joined: 20 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
I'm just saying, I don't think he's mentally capable. There is just something about the guy.


There is literally, and I use that word in it's full meaning, no possible way you can know that. What do you know about Brock Osweiler's situation/practice/history to say he doesn't have the mental ability?

He hasn't thrown a pass yet...none of this makes sense.


It's just how he comes off. He doesn't come off as that smart of a guy to me. Like I said, I just have a weird feeling about him. It has nothing to do with him throwing a pass yet or not.
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Russell2Bailey


Joined: 20 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncosfan07 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
I'm just saying, I don't think he's mentally capable. There is just something about the guy.
He wouldn't of played in a Noel Mazzone offense if he didn't have some smarts.
From watching Arizona State's Offense operate, I'm inclined to disagree. Way to much of it is just swings, bubble screens, quick screens, and simplistic. The verbage and other things may be somewhat complicated but just from watching it, it doesn't seem that complicated at all.
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elwayfan07


Joined: 13 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
I'm just saying, I don't think he's mentally capable. There is just something about the guy.
He wouldn't of played in a Noel Mazzone offense if he didn't have some smarts.
From watching Arizona State's Offense operate, I'm inclined to disagree. Way to much of it is just swings, bubble screens, quick screens, and simplistic. The verbage and other things may be somewhat complicated but just from watching it, it doesn't seem that complicated at all.


You can't know how complicated an offense is by looking at its execution. You don't know the reads the hot routes the audibles. So you can't necessarily say he doesn't have smarts by looking at an offenses playcalling. Mazzone is a reknowned QB coach and is very well respected. You don't start in that offense if you can't play.
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Russell2Bailey


Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 12905
Location: Where I will, I'll roam.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elwayfan07 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
I'm just saying, I don't think he's mentally capable. There is just something about the guy.
He wouldn't of played in a Noel Mazzone offense if he didn't have some smarts.
From watching Arizona State's Offense operate, I'm inclined to disagree. Way to much of it is just swings, bubble screens, quick screens, and simplistic. The verbage and other things may be somewhat complicated but just from watching it, it doesn't seem that complicated at all.


You can't know how complicated an offense is by looking at its execution. You don't know the reads the hot routes the audibles. So you can't necessarily say he doesn't have smarts by looking at an offenses playcalling. Mazzone is a reknowned QB coach and is very well respected. You don't start in that offense if you can't play.


I'll just say this then. Obviously I don't know the hot routes and audibles, I can only watch it be executed, note what they favor play wise and where they most try to attack, who gets the ball, what Brock was reading on certain plays. From THAT perspective, it's far from the most complicated that I've seen.
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 22474
Location: Conshohocken
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
The value chart is the worst thing to happen to mock drafts in my opinion, lol. I just don't see any way we can move up an exorbitant number of spots without giving much up. Plus, I don't believe we're just a LB away from being set post Peyton Manning...that's why I'm against it.


And the bolded my friend is the epitome of a "straw man" argument. If you want to say, "I don't see anyway we can move from 25 to 7, only giving up next years #1, DJ and maybe a 4th" thats fine.

Instead you redefine the specific argument in your own terms, IE: "exorbitant" and "not giving up much".

You really do work in DC don't you?


Sorry AKRNA, the only straw man argument here is yours and it is easily seen by your mockery of nearly everyone's post on the subject.

That is exactly what everyone is saying (that 2 1sts and DJ Williams isn't enough to make that trade), heck i flat out said that your proposal would be a low ball offer. You have yet to provide any evidence aside from the trade value chart to refute my opinion and instead continually use the "straw man argument" as your key point in your response, while also getting defensive and posting your Laughing and how it is too funny and you need to stop now....which are usually pretty good signs of someone who doesn't know how to respond.

Are you sure you're not the one living in DC?


Please oh please, tell me! What specifically do you think it would take to move from #25 to #7? Something other than "an excorbitant amount" of picks or "selling the farm" would be nice. Maybe even provide a bit of detail on your 4 picks. Also, by "everyone" I'm assuming you mean you and 67?

You're driving me nuts!! Answer the f**king question!!


Heck, i thought i did provide the 4 picks and if i didn't i apologize.

IMO, it would take something like Denver's 2013 1st and 3rd as well as Denver's 2014 1st and a mid round pick.

I base this off of the closest trade i could find in the last 4 years that would be similar. That trade is when the Falcons moved up to #6 from #27. In that trade they gave up 5 picks. In that trade the Falcons gave up a 2011 1st, 2nd, and 4th as well as a 2012 1st and 4th.

Another similar trade was when the Jets moved up to #5 from the late teens i believe for Sanchez. IIRC, the Jets gave up a 1st and 2nd and some players, though i don't think any of them were worth a whole lot.

To add, i know that Manti Teo is a hell of a player and i would love to have him on the roster. However, i don't think he is the piece that puts Denver over the top, nor do i think he is a primetime difference maker. I don't think Manti Teo is a player that would dictate whether Denver is a SB contender or if they could even win a Super Bowl. For example, a guy like Von Miller is irreplaceable no matter how you look at it. IMO, at ILB Teo's production could be similarly produced out of a lesser player or a combination of players (Irving/Woodyard, wouldn't that be nice?). That is the biggest reason i wouldn't want to trade up for him, again, i view it similar to the RB of the defense. Further, Denver could give up 2 1sts, and a 3rd and mid round pick for Teo and then in the 2014 draft we're sitting here saying, damn, we need a DT, or any other weak position for that matter and now aren't in position and don't have the ammo to get such a player.


Okay, I think your compensation is a bit high but not totally unreasonable. I'd think we could save a mid round pick by tossing in DJ, but thats just conjecture.

Our views on Te'os value to a 4-3 differ quite a bit though. It's very difficult to run a true 4-3 without a solid-very good MLB. Thats actually one of the reasons Collier kept developing the 3-4. He thought there were too few athletes who could truly man the middle.

Anyway, it's arguable that a stud MLB is the single most important piece to a 4-3. Joe Collier thought so. Te'o is the best college MLB I've seen in decades and will be an impact 3 down MLB. Something we really need if we're to compete with the "no-huddle" running teams we'll face.

He'd immediately provide some teeth to our nickle / dime run defenses. Something we really need that Bree's failed to exploit last week.


For the record, I also said I believed it would take at least two firsts and a second or more, at least I thought I said that, to get Te'o. I believe the amount of high picks required is just too much. MLB is certainly important, and we sorely need one, but at what cost?

Also, I know Te'o gets a lot of love, and rightfully so, but in my mind, he is not even close to the best LB prospect in years. Patrick Willis was the best LB prospect I have ever personally seen come out. Period. Urlacher too. Hell, even AJ Hawk was a VERY highly touted MLB coming out of college. My point is, Te'o is very good, will probably be very good, but it isn't worth it, in my mind to trade valuable picks for him.

I propose the name Mike Mauti from PSU...check that guy out. Could be had in the third, maybe even late 2nd depending on how he tests. In my opinion, only thing stopping him from being an even earlier pick is his injury history.
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broncosfan07


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
I'm just saying, I don't think he's mentally capable. There is just something about the guy.
He wouldn't of played in a Noel Mazzone offense if he didn't have some smarts.
From watching Arizona State's Offense operate, I'm inclined to disagree. Way to much of it is just swings, bubble screens, quick screens, and simplistic. The verbage and other things may be somewhat complicated but just from watching it, it doesn't seem that complicated at all.
No offense but it's the same kind of system Baylor ran with Griffin, just less QB running.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:


For the record, I also said I believed it would take at least two firsts and a second or more, at least I thought I said that, to get Te'o. I believe the amount of high picks required is just too much. MLB is certainly important, and we sorely need one, but at what cost?

Also, I know Te'o gets a lot of love, and rightfully so, but in my mind, he is not even close to the best LB prospect in years. Patrick Willis was the best LB prospect I have ever personally seen come out. Period. Urlacher too. Hell, even AJ Hawk was a VERY highly touted MLB coming out of college. My point is, Te'o is very good, will probably be very good, but it isn't worth it, in my mind to trade valuable picks for him.

I propose the name Mike Mauti from PSU...check that guy out. Could be had in the third, maybe even late 2nd depending on how he tests. In my opinion, only thing stopping him from being an even earlier pick is his injury history.


Like germ, I think your value for the move is a bit high, but not out of line. Actual value could run a wide range depending on variables.

As far as Te'o, specifically I never said he was the best linebacker prospect I'd seen, but the best 4-3 MLB I'd seen. I stand by that. Keep in mind, Urlacher was a safety in college and no one really knew where he'd play in the pro's. I iked Hawk, but couldn't see him as a fit in the middle of a 4-3. Loved Willis, but same with him.

Te'o on the other hand would be out of place in any other position IMO. Given our recurring problems trying to man that position he seems like the logical move, even at the cost of an additional two picks plus DJ to get there.

Just my two cents. Probably lots of varying opinions out there, this is mine. Wink
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Russell2Bailey


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncosfan07 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
I'm just saying, I don't think he's mentally capable. There is just something about the guy.
He wouldn't of played in a Noel Mazzone offense if he didn't have some smarts.
From watching Arizona State's Offense operate, I'm inclined to disagree. Way to much of it is just swings, bubble screens, quick screens, and simplistic. The verbage and other things may be somewhat complicated but just from watching it, it doesn't seem that complicated at all.
No offense but it's the same kind of system Baylor ran with Griffin, just less QB running.


Baylor had WAY more downfield passing. Half of what AS did would be out of the backfield or in the flat. But the way it operated, I guess I can agree.

Also, Robert Griffin, imo, is one of the smartest prospects at QB we've seen in a while.
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To weigh in on the Osweiler discussion...

Even though the case still remains that we could have used the 2nd round pick on a more immediate impact type of prospect, the fact that we are highly competitive regardless of the way the roster currently is set up does support Elway's choice to use the pick on a raw but talented QB in order to have a coached up in house signal caller ready to take over the first day after Manning retires. With the way the team plays right now it shows that the Os selection and the intent to provide a seamless transition from one era to the next was the right choice. Yes, despite the shared impression that the dude somehow somewhat comes across a tad strange. I feel good about our second 2nd round pick. Or to use a different approach: One can claim that we haven't missed our could-have-been immediate impact prospect so far.
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germ-x


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few things.

1. I really like Mauti. He isn't quite the prospect as recent PSU LB's, but he is an instinctive LB that makes few mistakes.

2. I was able to watch Sharrif Floyd over the past 2 weeks and I can see why he is rated as a 1st round pick by many. He hasn't made a bunch of flashy plays, but looks like a very well rounded DT with loads of potential. IMO, he can be a 3 down DT.
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broncosfan07


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
A few things.

1. I really like Mauti. He isn't quite the prospect as recent PSU LB's, but he is an instinctive LB that makes few mistakes.

2. I was able to watch Sharrif Floyd over the past 2 weeks and I can see why he is rated as a 1st round pick by many. He hasn't made a bunch of flashy plays, but looks like a very well rounded DT with loads of potential. IMO, he can be a 3 down DT.
Floyd has played great this season, wouldn't mind picking him at all.
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roar2014


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stanley Jean-Baptiste corner for Nebraska. I watched him play and he has impressive cover skills
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