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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PurpleMugen wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
To not be disappointed with him means youre setting your bar low. The coaching staff is afraid to open it up. Ponder is a check down lateral pass master.

The sooner we as fans accept this, the quicker we can begin to look for another answer. Joe Webb deserves a shot.


If Webb was good enough...he would have gotten a shot by now. They arent going to keep a guy that is better than Ponder on the bench.


This is not necessarily true at all. As has been said numerous times now, Spielman and Frazier (or one or the other) have tied themselves to Ponder's wagon, so to speak. It is very likely they will avoid benching him without considering what is in the best interest of the team because there are egos at play.


If it isnt necessarily true, that means that it is potentially true or possibly even entirely true. If egos are in play, wouldnt that mean that the team would want to be one of six to make the playoffs. That implies to me that the best QB in practice who shows most capable of running the offense will be the one who gives the team the best shot to win. Egos want to win, and Spielman also played a part in drafting Webb. Why is Webb never mentioned as being Spielman's guy like Ponder is. The Vikes drafted both Webb and Ponder and Spielman wasnt the GM for either selection.
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El Raymundo


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PurpleMugen wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
To not be disappointed with him means youre setting your bar low. The coaching staff is afraid to open it up. Ponder is a check down lateral pass master.

The sooner we as fans accept this, the quicker we can begin to look for another answer. Joe Webb deserves a shot.


If Webb was good enough...he would have gotten a shot by now. They arent going to keep a guy that is better than Ponder on the bench.


This is not necessarily true at all. As has been said numerous times now, Spielman and Frazier (or one or the other) have tied themselves to Ponder's wagon, so to speak. It is very likely they will avoid benching him without considering what is in the best interest of the team because there are egos at play.


I've got to respectfully disagree with you there, PM. You may be right, and I understand where you're coming from, but I feel that Frazier and Spielman are much more hitched to the "Win" wagon than they are the "Ponder" wagon, and if there were a QB option on the team that could get them wins (while not disrupting the "build for the long term" philosophy they seem to have embraced), then I think they would exercise that option.
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vikesnewcoach11


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Raymundo wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
To not be disappointed with him means youre setting your bar low. The coaching staff is afraid to open it up. Ponder is a check down lateral pass master.

The sooner we as fans accept this, the quicker we can begin to look for another answer. Joe Webb deserves a shot.


If Webb was good enough...he would have gotten a shot by now. They arent going to keep a guy that is better than Ponder on the bench.


This is not necessarily true at all. As has been said numerous times now, Spielman and Frazier (or one or the other) have tied themselves to Ponder's wagon, so to speak. It is very likely they will avoid benching him without considering what is in the best interest of the team because there are egos at play.



I've got to respectfully disagree with you there, PM. You may be right, and I understand where you're coming from, but I feel that Frazier and Spielman are much more hitched to the "Win" wagon than they are the "Ponder" wagon, and if there were a QB option on the team that could get them wins (while not disrupting the "build for the long term" philosophy they seem to have embraced), then I think they would exercise that option.


Agree with both of those posts. We are 7-6 and if they really thought Webb could get us in the playoffs he would be playing. I personally dont see much of a difference in Webb and Ponder. Webb is more athletic but I dont feel he can manage a game like Ponder and I feel Ponder is a bit more accurate. Either way...Ponder should remain the starter...Im pretty sure the coaches and GM know more than we do when it comes to this situation
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelKing728 wrote:


I agree if there is a better option out there, we should pursue it, but I don't think right now we should bench him, or sign some washed up bum QB like Mike Vick to take over at QB.


Are you honestly going to say with a straight face that Christian Ponder is better than Michael Vick?
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:


I agree if there is a better option out there, we should pursue it, but I don't think right now we should bench him, or sign some washed up bum QB like Mike Vick to take over at QB.


Are you honestly going to say with a straight face that Christian Ponder is better than Michael Vick?


Considering at this point I doubt Mike Vick could play for 2 straight months, due to repeated hits and injuries, yes. Yes I can.
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Frank Costello


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We don't play Webb for the same reason NY doesn't play Tebow. Neither players practice well or are offensive gurus.

BUT come game day, they turn it on. Teams cant stop Webb more then half the time cause they cant keep up. I promise you Webb is a better player through and through. The coaching staff is sitting on a diamond compared to Ponder.
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ktarinze


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PurpleMugen wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
To not be disappointed with him means youre setting your bar low. The coaching staff is afraid to open it up. Ponder is a check down lateral pass master.

The sooner we as fans accept this, the quicker we can begin to look for another answer. Joe Webb deserves a shot.


If Webb was good enough...he would have gotten a shot by now. They arent going to keep a guy that is better than Ponder on the bench.


This is not necessarily true at all. As has been said numerous times now, Spielman and Frazier (or one or the other) have tied themselves to Ponder's wagon, so to speak. It is very likely they will avoid benching him without considering what is in the best interest of the team because there are egos at play.


this
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ktarinze


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
To not be disappointed with him means youre setting your bar low. The coaching staff is afraid to open it up. Ponder is a check down lateral pass master.

The sooner we as fans accept this, the quicker we can begin to look for another answer. Joe Webb deserves a shot.


If Webb was good enough...he would have gotten a shot by now. They arent going to keep a guy that is better than Ponder on the bench.


This is not necessarily true at all. As has been said numerous times now, Spielman and Frazier (or one or the other) have tied themselves to Ponder's wagon, so to speak. It is very likely they will avoid benching him without considering what is in the best interest of the team because there are egos at play.


If it isnt necessarily true, that means that it is potentially true or possibly even entirely true. If egos are in play, wouldnt that mean that the team would want to be one of six to make the playoffs. That implies to me that the best QB in practice who shows most capable of running the offense will be the one who gives the team the best shot to win. Egos want to win, and Spielman also played a part in drafting Webb. Why is Webb never mentioned as being Spielman's guy like Ponder is. The Vikes drafted both Webb and Ponder and Spielman wasnt the GM for either selection.


The way ponder has played has been a clear reason to start webb. He should of at least gotten a shot to see what he can do. Webb can't be that much worse than Ponder (if he even is). He deserved a shot to see what he can do. He looked good every time he has come in for me. I haven't seen a bad game from him yet but have seen plenty of bad games from Ponder. Even if Ponder is beating him in practice it's not translating into the games. Webb at this point might be better in the games but we won't know because they are stuck to Ponder.

I'm not saying to play webb at all this season but I can see why people would want to see him. No matter what their explanation is we don't know what is truly happening. However Webb has looked good in most of the games he has played. Ponder not so much, that tells me something.
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Last edited by ktarinze on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ktarinze


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelKing728 wrote:
BBIB wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:


I agree if there is a better option out there, we should pursue it, but I don't think right now we should bench him, or sign some washed up bum QB like Mike Vick to take over at QB.


Are you honestly going to say with a straight face that Christian Ponder is better than Michael Vick?


Considering at this point I doubt Mike Vick could play for 2 straight months, due to repeated hits and injuries, yes. Yes I can.


I'm sorry I don't think Ponder is or at any point has been better than Vick even with his injuries.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Raymundo wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
To not be disappointed with him means youre setting your bar low. The coaching staff is afraid to open it up. Ponder is a check down lateral pass master.

The sooner we as fans accept this, the quicker we can begin to look for another answer. Joe Webb deserves a shot.


If Webb was good enough...he would have gotten a shot by now. They arent going to keep a guy that is better than Ponder on the bench.


This is not necessarily true at all. As has been said numerous times now, Spielman and Frazier (or one or the other) have tied themselves to Ponder's wagon, so to speak. It is very likely they will avoid benching him without considering what is in the best interest of the team because there are egos at play.


I've got to respectfully disagree with you there, PM. You may be right, and I understand where you're coming from, but I feel that Frazier and Spielman are much more hitched to the "Win" wagon than they are the "Ponder" wagon, and if there were a QB option on the team that could get them wins (while not disrupting the "build for the long term" philosophy they seem to have embraced), then I think they would exercise that option.


Sure, Ray, it's possible, but I think the rigid defense of Ponder they've offered in press conferences is a sign of stubbornness and inflexibility more than anything else. Frazier has not even admitted to Ponder playing poorly in the deplorable performances he's turned in the last few weeks. I'm not particularly compelled to believe they're assessing the situation 100% fairly and honestly given the way that has played out. I would like to believe the way you are seeing it is precisely the way Frazier/Spielman are acting on it, but it does not seem so to me.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
To not be disappointed with him means youre setting your bar low. The coaching staff is afraid to open it up. Ponder is a check down lateral pass master.

The sooner we as fans accept this, the quicker we can begin to look for another answer. Joe Webb deserves a shot.


If Webb was good enough...he would have gotten a shot by now. They arent going to keep a guy that is better than Ponder on the bench.


This is not necessarily true at all. As has been said numerous times now, Spielman and Frazier (or one or the other) have tied themselves to Ponder's wagon, so to speak. It is very likely they will avoid benching him without considering what is in the best interest of the team because there are egos at play.


If it isnt necessarily true, that means that it is potentially true or possibly even entirely true. If egos are in play, wouldnt that mean that the team would want to be one of six to make the playoffs. That implies to me that the best QB in practice who shows most capable of running the offense will be the one who gives the team the best shot to win. Egos want to win, and Spielman also played a part in drafting Webb. Why is Webb never mentioned as being Spielman's guy like Ponder is. The Vikes drafted both Webb and Ponder and Spielman wasnt the GM for either selection.


Before we all go speculating on all the politics involved, we should all bear in mind that it's really difficult to switch quarterbacks this late in the season. Especially when your team is fighting for a playoff spot.

Football is a game of timing and repetition. All things being equal, the guy who hasn't had the reps in practice is at a huge disadvantage. And it isn't just about the QB. The receivers are struggling too, and if you switch QBs you're asking your receivers to adjust to a new guy in an offence that's built around the quick timing routes.
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AQuintus


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:


Before we all go speculating on all the politics involved, we should all bear in mind that it's really difficult to switch quarterbacks this late in the season. Especially when your team is fighting for a playoff spot.

Football is a game of timing and repetition. All things being equal, the guy who hasn't had the reps in practice is at a huge disadvantage. And it isn't just about the QB. The receivers are struggling too, and if you switch QBs you're asking your receivers to adjust to a new guy in an offence that's built around the quick timing routes.


This, and it would also be asking an offensive line (which has had it's own struggles) to adjust to a guy who is more of a runner than a passer at this point.
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Bodysuit Man


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our biggest problem is that there are few options. I don't know that Webb would be much of an improvement over Ponder. Of course we don't have much of anything to go on via Webb, while Ponder has shown us he's having a lot of trouble figuring out the pro game.

I guess the point I'm making is that I understand everyone's frustrations with Ponder but just because he's stinking now doesn't mean anyone besides him would do better. I personally have said many times "he can't be any worse" just to have to eat my words.

But we obviously weren't prepared for Ponder to not be able to handle the job. His backups are much less experienced than he is. We really need a veteran presence to bail us out the way Frerotte did with Jackson. You would think that the lesson would have been learned from the Chilly days but that hasn't been the case.

It would be nice not to hear or read things like "despite another lackluster performance from Ponder" or "Christian Ponder continues to struggle" on a weekly basis. I still can't believe a guy with this many starts can struggle to reach 100 passing yards. It's scary to think how different things would be without MVP performances from Peterson.

AP is the MVP of the league imo. Running into defenses that are absolutely ready for the run and getting it done anyway is half the story. Some forget Peyton Manning was out for a year rehabbing. Peterson got hurt this time last year and didn't miss any time this season. MUCH more impressive to me.
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ktarinze wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:
BBIB wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:


I agree if there is a better option out there, we should pursue it, but I don't think right now we should bench him, or sign some washed up bum QB like Mike Vick to take over at QB.


Are you honestly going to say with a straight face that Christian Ponder is better than Michael Vick?


Considering at this point I doubt Mike Vick could play for 2 straight months, due to repeated hits and injuries, yes. Yes I can.


I'm sorry I don't think Ponder is or at any point has been better than Vick even with his injuries.


Well to be fair, I think Vick is pretty much worthless as a QB.

If I'm a GM, I just stay away from him. I don't trust him on the field.
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vikesnewcoach11


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelKing728 wrote:
ktarinze wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:
BBIB wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:


I agree if there is a better option out there, we should pursue it, but I don't think right now we should bench him, or sign some washed up bum QB like Mike Vick to take over at QB.


Are you honestly going to say with a straight face that Christian Ponder is better than Michael Vick?


Considering at this point I doubt Mike Vick could play for 2 straight months, due to repeated hits and injuries, yes. Yes I can.


I'm sorry I don't think Ponder is or at any point has been better than Vick even with his injuries.


Well to be fair, I think Vick is pretty much worthless as a QB.

If I'm a GM, I just stay away from him. I don't trust him on the field.


agreed on all counts...vick is washed up, cant stay healthy, and cant win. Id take Ponder any day
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